Does the USPA membership and officers need to step up to preserve the safety of the membership and vitality of the sport?

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

With so many hotshots in the air these days I feel much safer doing working jumps then fun jumps, at least I'm out last, deepest on the spot and can pull higher and often can be one of the last to land and avoid the idiots. I think more people need to come to the understanding that they don't need to swoop on every jump.
-------
Ditto, Exactly...

Having traveled around quite a bit I've found that its not the hardcore swoopers that are causing many of the problems and some times its not the wanna-be swoopers either.

So often I've been under canopy sitting in deep brakes watching the carnage as plane loads of regular canopy flying fun jumpers are all over the place with no pattern whats so ever. Or mulitpul patterns. Then there's people spiralling in the pattern trying to "beat another canopy" or "get out of the way" of another canopy/pilot. While I sit and float above them on my highly loaded canopy waiting for just a break in the carnage so I can simply enter A pattern, since there isn't THE pattern available. Then do a simple straight in approach.

There's a reason why the large majority of my fun jumps have become hop-n-pops from 4k or clear and pulls from 13k. Its not due to the swoopers, its due to everyone else's lack of patterns. I've tried education and have been told to "fuck off" I've tried setting a good example and I've been told to "fuck off."

There's been more then one boogie that I quit jumping during the boogie due to the really bad canopy traffic from all of the 100-500 jump jumpers. There's been more then one DZ I've quit jumping at while visiting due to the complete lack of patterns and severe safety issues under canopy.

Now, I'm not saying that some of the swoopers aren't causing problems, just that the swoopers have been made out as the bad guys when the problem stems from "deeper waters" in the general jump population. It compounds when a swooper can't check their ego and HAS to swoop on every jump and tries to swoop in those pattern conditions. Was it the swooper's fault. Sure, was it everyone else's fault for all the other stuff going on instead of a pattern? Sure. Will simply seperating the swoopers "fix" the problem? In the short term it might, but in the long term, there are bigger problems.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[yardhippie 0]

Quote

Quote

First of all I'm pointing fingers only addressing what I see going down, an when "we" try to remedy the issue it gets disregarded and an attiude coped,

Oh, I agree that some swoopers have attitudes and won't listen. What I'm pointing out is that some of us "old timers" also have attitudes and sometimes we also won't listen. If we can all get over ourselves and work together to educate all skydivers, we can reduce the number of funerals we have to go to.

Is it going to be easy? Nope. Is it a worthy goal? I think so...

You aint kidding!

I fall into the "hotshot" category as discussed in this thread. I follow the rules as closely as possible. I respect that if youre in the pattern and below me, I either have to wait on you, or land elsewhere safely.

Does this mean that if you come straigt in to our designated swoop lane, you wont get a talking to? No. Did we land safe and live to talk about it? You bet.

I think that too much of the time we've got both sides of the canopy flight fence pointing fingers at each other. Most problems are solved via compromise. The guys that have been in the sport for decades with 1000s of jumps and think they know it all and/or that the rules dont apply to them need to be respectful of the swoopers just as the swoopers must respect all others.

Ive seen just as much attitude from the "old school" just as much as the "new guys". I think we have something to learn from everyone, no matter what their time in the sport / jump numbers.

I agree its a great goal. The more we work together the better we make the sport.

We should work on this as a community. Not expect/hope a govorning body will regulate it into submission.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[dharma1976 0]

This is a big issue and we all need to stop blaming the other group that we are not a part of and figure something out together.

I for one think it starts at education and do my best to pass on the knowledge that was passed on to me (including that that was passed on from the great teacher Extreme Agonizing Pain)

God I cant think how many times I have sat down with newer jumpers and talked about patterns and why they are important after someone had spiralled through another group...and then explain to them abotu vertical stacking as well...and really spend the time to trully explain it to them so that they get it and understand why once they are open it is about taking your turn cause otherwise we could hurt people.

And I dont even have any ratings...the only thing I have is the knowledge that some people passed on to me in the same manner.

If we all can get along and come up with a way to deal with this together...perhaps we can save someones life...perhaps even one of our own...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

Does the USPA membership and officers need to step up to preserve the safety of the membership and vitality of the sport?

Well, seeing as how one of the folks that has been very vocal in the Incident tread dealing with the fatality at Eloy on Dec 31 is a National Director... and the owner of Eloy where fatalities happened on Dec 30 & 31st is a National Director... upcoming USPA Election Results withstanding... seems there are (have been) folks on the board that are in the right place to do something.

Interogative... I would be currious to know if Eloy has done (will do) anything in the future to address this.... e.g. there have been sevearl comments in the this thread, the Dec 31st Incident Tread and the Landing Patter Police thread posted by folks that were reported to be at Eloy this past weekend saying things were "scary" in the main landing area even afer the first fatility happend on the 30th. One comment made by I'm not sure who stuck out in my mind, they commented that while the main landing area was closed while the EMTs were picking up the one person injured and the other killed on the 30th, that folks were still hookin' it in the pattern while everyone was landing in the alternate area. Granted, these are all just posts on DZ.com (aka hear-say), but, again, I did find it bothersome... then I remembered... We all signed the waiver.

I'm not sure what all of the "take away" from all of this should be, but one things for sure, I'm even MORE motivated to just land out and stay hell and gone away from the main landing areas at the big DZs when I happen to visit them.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

GG, I'm not picking on your post specifically, but I am using someting from it as a point of discussion as I've heard it in your post and similar in others...

Quote

If jumpers who are not swoopers fly a traditional downwind/base/final pattern they are predictable. Being predictable in the pattern makes you less likely to find yourself in the path of a swooping canopy, and it allows those who are swooping to tell if you will enter "their" airspace or not. Requiring non-swoopers to fly that traditional pattern instead of doing 180's to final, doing big S turns on final and/or sprialing down to 500 feet and entering final after the last spiral (all things that I've seen done very recently) could very well save lives.

The part of what bugs me a bit that I'm using the above as an example of is that swoopers and non-swoopers can land in the same area. I'm kinda thinking not... sure, it will continue, and maybe its just being a bit exasperated with this, but I'm still kinda thinking that maybe the only way is TOTAL segregation of HP / Swoop landings & non-swoop landings and a total zero tollerance for doing a swoop landing in the non-swoop landing area and vica versa; that no amount of training or education can totally keep swoopers and non-swoopers safe in the same landing pattern / landing area forever & always.

Okay, I'm realistic, setting up different landing areas at all DZs everywhere wouldn't work and I'd also guess that not all DZOs would have the time or energy or be of the opinion to police a zero tollerance policy for landing infractions.

I just think we're kinda kidding ourselves that swoopers and non-swoopers can always land in the same area all the time under all conditions... sure, it may work a lot of the time (translation, we'll get away with it), but it'll just be a matter of time until a collision happens.


Somewhat along the same lines... okay, for the record, I'm a non-swooper when it comes to landings... and I'm starting to feel like its us non-swoopers that are going to get sent off to land in the back 40 to land and take that bothersome, un-cool, long walk back to the packing area. *sigh* Oh well, I guess I'd rather do that then be involved in a canopy collision... again... short final.



... of course, if we wanted to be safe forever and always, we wouldn't jump out of marginally maintained aircraft with glorified bed sheets strapped to our backs...

[peckerhead 0]

In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With so many hotshots in the air these days I feel much safer doing working jumps then fun jumps, at least I'm out last, deepest on the spot and can pull higher and often can be one of the last to land and avoid the idiots. I think more people need to come to the understanding that they don't need to swoop on every jump.
.....................

You got that right!!!!

It has even got to the point where I don't like to jump at big drop zones or go to large boogies anymore. I can't believe some of the stupid shit I saw at boogies last summer.

To me the solution is simple; have a seperate landing area for swoopers and enforce it.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I did find it bothersome... then I remembered... We all signed the waiver.

Yup...

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

It has even got to the point where I don't like to jump at big drop zones or go to large boogies anymore. I can't believe some of the stupid shit I saw at boogies last summer.

To me the solution is simple; have a seperate landing area for swoopers and enforce it.

The problems I've referenced before about big boogies and DZs haven't really stemmed from swoopers. Its been all these other people who have been causing the problems. I'm not saying that a seperate landing area wouldn't be a bad idea, personally I think its a good thing to do.

Too many people don't fly a pattern, fly it poorly or don't work to achieve horizontal AND vertical seperation from other canopies in the air. Too many people (not just swoopers) are all about themselves and have no consideration. The "old time" jumpers do this too, you guys aren't exempt.

Going into deep brakes on final with all of these other jumpers stacking up behind you. Doing s-turns on final so you can land close or in the pea pit. Accuracy starts with a proper pattern, deep brakes or s-turns are a crutch for a botched pattern. So now a jumper is taking up 3/4 of the landing area by doing these s-turns in brakes while the rest of the otter load is stacked up behind them with no idea when the jumper will stop their movements or any thing else. Other jumpers spirally down to "beat the other canopies" when if they would have held in 1/2 brakes and headed over to the holding area section of the pattern, they would have achieved great seperation and had a better canopy flight for all.

Its all of these basic concepts that a large majority skydivers do not do or even care to do. They're too much about themselves to care about everyone else or their safety under canopy. So what happens is that a group of jumpers are singled out and a lot of lip service from the same people that are themselves causing problems, continue about the safety of that group of jumpers.


I'm not saying that there's not a problem in swooping today, I'm just saying that the problem also involves you, the non-swooper, and how you fly your canopy!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

The "old time" jumpers do this too, you guys aren't exempt.

True enough. I've recently come to realize that for every newb out there thats "too cool for school", there's some ol' grey hair that "knows so much" they're "so good" they ain't gotta dirt-dive, door jam, creep or mind the landing area rulz...

There's got to be some point is a long term skydiver's carrer where the "too cool for school" curve trails off and before the "knows so much / I'm so good" curve kicks in where we're trainable.

[popsjumper 2]

Education? YES! Emphatically

USPA Regulation? NO! Emphatically.

DZO/S&TA enforcement of local rules? YES! Empahtically.
But THEY are NOT doing the job at home.

I'm with Stratostar on this. What the hell happened to common sense and local rule enforcement?

So some straight-in flier is in "your swoop lane"? You stupidly swoop anyway and then complain? Idiot, you're gonna hurt somebody someday. Forget the swoop and then educate or ground the straight-in flier on the ground.

If the straight-in flier is an old-timer with an attitude? Ground him. A newbie? Educate him. Swooper endangering others? Ground him.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[stratostar 5]

To All,

Hey I like to swoop my big ass boat of a sabre 1 and I also like to shoot for the peas sport style or old school style under a foil. But if there is traffic or S/L's landing or any other reason for that matter if I can't do it free and clear of others in the air or on the ground, my ass don't swoop. If we are having a boogie you won't find me shooting the peas under a foil doing old school style, or if it's windy as all fuck I won't jump a round, there is a time and place for everything. I maybe old school, but I learned a long time ago this sport is about continued education for yourself, you can never stop learning period, you can never know it all! Anyone who thinks different is a fool, for one day it will bite you in the ass.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[labrys 0]

Quote

Education? YES! Emphatically

USPA Regulation? NO! Emphatically.

DZO/S&TA enforcement of local rules? YES! Empahtically.
But THEY are NOT doing the job at home.

I'm with Stratostar on this. What the hell happened to common sense and local rule enforcement?

So some straight-in flier is in "your swoop lane"? You stupidly swoop anyway and then complain? Idiot, you're gonna hurt somebody someday. Forget the swoop and then educate or ground the straight-in flier on the ground.

If the straight-in flier is an old-timer with an attitude? Ground him. A newbie? Educate him. Swooper endangering others? Ground him

On one hand I don't feel like I have enough experience to comment on this.

On the other hand this feels so fucking right I feel compelled to thank you for posting it.

Owned by Remi #?

[dharma1976 0]

Quote

To All,

Hey I like to swoop my big ass boat of a sabre 1 and I also like to shoot for the peas sport style or old school style under a foil. But if there is traffic or S/L's landing or any other reason for that matter if I can't do it free and clear of others in the air or on the ground, my ass don't swoop. If we are having a boogie you won't find me shooting the peas under a foil doing old school style, or if it's windy as all fuck I won't jump a round, there is a time and place for everything. I maybe old school, but I learned a long time ago this sport is about continued education of yourself, you can never stop learning period, you can never know it all! Anyone who thinks different is a fool, for one day it will bite you in the ass.

Amen

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[peckerhead 0]

Dave, I hope your tutorial wasn't aimed at me because I certainly don't fly my canopy in traffic the way you describe. I agree with Strato star, nowadays I prefer to do working jumps than fun jumps. When I video a tandem or jump with students I know I am going to have clear airspace to land in.

I can swoop, do a steep accuracy aproach, fly a standard pattern, pretty much do whatever I want because I don't have to worry about being overtaken by a faster canopy from above or dodging slower canopies below. I don't jump at a mega-turbine DZ with multiple loads in the air at the same time.

Believe it or not people were swooping before you started jumping. Us "old timers" call it the 90's

The stupid shit I witnessed last summer at boogies included swoopers and non-swoopers as well. That is why I prefer the smaller dropzones and I am pretty selective when it comes to boogies.

I have done competition accuracy at the national level but I would not do a steep, deep brake aproach on a classic accuracy canopy with traffic above me at a boogie. I wouldn't do a 270 on a HP canopy in traffic either.

It has been said several times that swooping is here to stay and that is true. However non-HP landings are also here to stay so I think the best solution is to have seperate landing areas for each disipline. It sounds like we agree on that.

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Does the USPA membership and officers need to step up to preserve the safety of the membership and vitality of the sport?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, seeing as how one of the folks that has been very vocal in the Incident tread dealing with the fatality at Eloy on Dec 31 is a National Director... and the owner of Eloy where fatalities happened on Dec 30 & 31st is a National Director... upcoming USPA Election Results withstanding... seems there are (have been) folks on the board that are in the right place to do something.

What exactly do you think the BOD should do?
Rules don't work if they are not enforced locally. There will ALWAYS be that yahoo out there that knows better and when we least expect it they do something stupid and kill themselves and/or someone else.

Again, what EXACTLY do you suggest that the BOD do to prevent this from continuing to happen.

Personally I think if you ban hook turns and stupidly small canopies it could fix the problem, until then, even with all the education and coaching available, there are going to be those that don't/won't listen and will die.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[billvon 2,473]

>Does anybody else think more needs to be done to preserve the
>lives and limbs of the membership and skydiving as a sport?

Nope. I recall USPA trying to get involved in some issues with Colorado drop zones doing stupid shit, including some very illegal stuff that almost killed a jumper. Not a single skydiver would support the regional director that tried to fix it. She eventually gave up.

USPA is not "them." USPA is us. If YOU tolerate yahoos doing 270's in crowded landing areas, then they will continue to do them. If you and all your like-minded friends refuse to jump at DZ's that allow such behavior, and spend the money to get the word out that they're unsafe, then that behavior will start to change. Not because of any laws, but because that DZO isn't going to want to lose the business associated with that sort of bad publicity.

What will you, as a person, get out of it? You'll probably get blacklisted at that DZ and perhaps a few others. You'll get hate mail. You'll get people threatening to beat you up for being an ignorant coward who trashes other DZ's. You'll be accused of playing DZ politics just because you hate the DZO. Is that worth it to you? If so, then by all means, do it. If not, then don't do it. Just don't expect other people to take the heat for you.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

What will you, as a person, get out of it? You'll probably get blacklisted at that DZ and perhaps a few others. You'll get hate mail. You'll get people threatening to beat you up for being an ignorant coward who trashes other DZ's. You'll be accused of playing DZ politics just because you hate the DZO.

You sure got that right.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Dave, I hope your tutorial wasn't aimed at me because I certainly don't fly my canopy in traffic the way you describe.

Not aimed at you, just commenting in regards to what my experiences have been while traveling around to other DZs.

Quote

Believe it or not people were swooping before you started jumping. Us "old timers" call it the 90's

Yup. Did you ever read the "Godfather of swooping" thread I started a while back?

Quote

I think the best solution is to have seperate landing areas for each disipline. It sounds like we agree on that.

For some DZs, but for some DZs you're not going to have the room to have a student landing area, tandem landing area, swoop lane, accuracy landing area and the "idiot pilot" landing area. All of these seperate from the regular landing area.

The real solution is education and understanding. Understanding when and where we fly our canopies in a certain manner, regardless of what that is. You don't FF on a RW jump, you don't cork to your belly on a FF jump. Anymore when I'm not on a working jump I'm doing hop-n-pops or altitude clear and pulls. This gives me more airspace and either my own landing area or only sharing the landing area with one or two other people.

Is that the best solution? That I couldn't tell you. Just that in my experience I think the first step to an overall solution is education.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Now, I'm not saying that some of the swoopers aren't causing problems, just that the swoopers have been made out as the bad guys when the problem stems from "deeper waters" in the general jump population. It compounds when a swooper can't check their ego and HAS to swoop on every jump and tries to swoop in those pattern conditions. Was it the swooper's fault. Sure, was it everyone else's fault for all the other stuff going on instead of a pattern? Sure. Will simply seperating the swoopers "fix" the problem? In the short term it might, but in the long term, there are bigger problems.

If swooping into traffic is the proximate cause of the accidents, isn't that where you start? Then you tackle the greater problem of everyone flies like idiots.

I like how Byron has segmented traffic without even having a true different area. In the briefing they point out the swoop pond/area and make it clear to avoid the vertical airspace above it.

Elsinore has the three tiers - swooping, experienced, student+all others, but sometimes as a result you have more people landing in the third making the main field the easier to negotiate.