AggieDave 6 #26 December 2, 2004 QuoteThe gun levels the playing field quite a bit, so a situation of a small person trying to kill a larger person, failing and getting his ass whipped isn't something that needs to be taken into much consideration. I think you're under the wrong belief that a gun works like a magic zapper, that people instantly stop upon being shot and that to be good and accurate with a weapon you need no prior training. You're also assuming that in close ranges that there are no defenses for a gun being pointed at you or held against your person. Lots of assumptions that come not from fact, but simply from bad TV.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #27 December 2, 2004 QuoteIn the case of premeditated murders it probably doesn't make all that much of a difference, but for crimes of passion the use of a gun makes it -much- easier and therefore more likely. That just further proves my point that many opinions when it comes to the pro and anti gun crowd come from assumptions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #28 December 2, 2004 QuoteIn the case of premeditated murders it probably doesn't make all that much of a difference, but for crimes of passion the use of a gun makes it -much- easier and therefore more likely. Then why are more deaths in "crimes of passion" by blunt force trama than guns?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #29 December 2, 2004 QuoteHowever, that still doesn't not make it fact that if a murder has been committed with a gun, that murder would still have taken place if a gun had not been available. It also doesn't make the opposite fact. It does nothing to address my opinion that both sides are opinions based on large assumptions. There are too many variables involved. so if you don't know if gun control works....Why are you for it?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #30 December 2, 2004 Quoteso if you don't know if gun control works....Why are you for it? I have stated before that I could care less what the US does with their gun laws. I do know that between the three countries I have lived, the two I feel safest in have been those with stricter gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,160 #31 December 2, 2004 I hope you decided to write the paper. They always ended up taking longer than I thought they would, and then I'd pull an all-nighter. And just think of the gasoline you'll be saving Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #32 December 2, 2004 Hey, coming from a biker chick? Come on girl, you know better then that. Ended up getting tied up at the house and not getting out, but I'm trying to talk some folks to come in this weekend and ride since it looks like we won't be jumping due to clouds.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #33 December 2, 2004 After some internet searching I have the following numbers for you. The numbers quoted by Quade aren't right accordning to these stats but they are interesting nonetheless. Population of US - 272 million Population of Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark and Australia - 285 Million By Country with first column being total murders and second being gun murders: Country, Murders, Gun Murders GB, 834, 64 France, 648, 254 Germany, 951, 179 Japan, 769, 24 Switzerland, 92, 40 Sweden, 113, 15 Denmark, 62, 11 Australia, 331, 78 Sub-Total, 3800, 666 US, 15543, 10144 So there are your figures Kennedy. Sourced from a pro gun website. Some of these countries have las gun laws (Switzerland for one) and others more strict (GB & Aus) but it makes for reasonably interesting reading. What I find incredible is the murder rate in Japan, a country of more than 120 million people - it is so low! Analyse away. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #34 December 2, 2004 QuoteHell, I have two loaded handguns on my desk right this very instant and I have no desire to shoot anyone, rob anything or kill anything. Slacker. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #35 December 2, 2004 Like I said, the numbers I quoted were valid at the time it was written a couple of years ago. Obviously the numbers will be different from year to year, but I think the trend speaks for itself. Look at the percentage of gun murders in the US compared to all murders and then look at all the other countries with stricter gun control laws.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #36 December 2, 2004 QuoteCocaine is illeagal, yet people still have and use it. Kind of a bad analogy... If people were allowed to own cocaine and not use it... there would be alot more cocaine use for sure. I personally dont think a gun ban in the US is a sensible move - because its way too late for that. But as always - advocate the remaining of a ban in any country where the gun levels are low, as without a doubt it makes it harder (not impossible agreed) to get a gun. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #37 December 2, 2004 I'm with you on this Quade. I disagree with the whole Guns don't kill people and are just tools statement. In a country like the US that is saturated with Guns it is easier for criminals to get hold of them. Yes we have gun crime in the UK but it is a lot harder for the criminals to get hold of the weapons, hence the reduced rate. Stating that we still have gun crime and therefore gun bans don't work (as was done with the thread about Canada), is ridiculous. In a place saturated to the gills with Guns how hard is it for those who want to to get them. Another example of this: It is easy for underage kids to get hold of liquor illegaly as it is so readily available to those for whom it is legal. If there was a prohibition of alcohol people would still drink but it would be that much harder to get hold of the substance in the first place that underage drinking would go down. All that said it is an argument that neither side is ever going to be willing to back down on. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #38 December 3, 2004 QuoteI'm with you on this Quade. I disagree with the whole Guns don't kill people and are just tools statement. In a country like the US that is saturated with Guns it is easier for criminals to get hold of them. Yes we have gun crime in the UK but it is a lot harder for the criminals to get hold of the weapons, hence the reduced rate. Stating that we still have gun crime and therefore gun bans don't work (as was done with the thread about Canada), is ridiculous. In a place saturated to the gills with Guns how hard is it for those who want to to get them. Another example of this: It is easy for underage kids to get hold of liquor illegaly as it is so readily available to those for whom it is legal. If there was a prohibition of alcohol people would still drink but it would be that much harder to get hold of the substance in the first place that underage drinking would go down. All that said it is an argument that neither side is ever going to be willing to back down on. The Prohibition laws in the US proved you wrong. Booze was just as easy to get, just at a higher price and lower quality. Sometimes it was even deadly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #39 December 3, 2004 QuoteThe Prohibition laws in the US proved you wrong. Booze was just as easy to get, just at a higher price and lower quality. Sometimes it was even deadly. Think that guns are a little different - not quite so easy to make at home (not for most people) Basically, I think what is being said... is that somewhere like the UK for example benefits from lower gun crime becuase of the ban. In a saturated market like the US it is too late for a ban to be effective.... but ask yourself this... If a ban was lifted in the UK, and gun shops opened on every other street.... do you think gun crime would stay the same becuase criminals had guns already? I think it is unquestionable that lifting a ban here would see large increases in gun deaths. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #40 December 3, 2004 Quote The Prohibition laws in the US proved you wrong. Booze was just as easy to get, just at a higher price and lower quality. Sometimes it was even deadly. In the countries with stricter gun control laws, is there a problem with an underground market in higher priced, lower quality guns that are more deadly to the illegal owners? Do the higher priced, lower quality and more dangerous guns make up the difference in the disparity between the US gun deaths and the previously talked about countries with stricter gun control?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #41 December 3, 2004 QuoteFact: Banning country music might be more effective – one study shows 51% of the suicide differential can be traced to country music. QuoteADOLPH HITLER “The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing.”320Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #42 December 3, 2004 I was mostly pointing out the fallacy in the comparison with Prohibition. I personally feel that the lifting of the ban in the UK would cause a decrease in crime, just like the carry laws caused decreases in the US states that enacted those laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #43 December 3, 2004 QuoteI personally feel that the lifting of the ban in the UK would cause a decrease in crime, just like the carry laws caused decreases in the US states that enacted those laws. Well that I guess is where we will have to agree to disagree.. I hear the agrument that criminals that are intent will get guns / commit crime / do whatever and ignore laws, yet am asked to accept that crime goes down with a public gun deterrent? A simple statement that I really cant see a realistic denial of.... If there were as many guns in the UK as in the US - more people would get shot. More guns in the UK means less crime and less shootings? I dont think so Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #44 December 3, 2004 I found this quote to be most interesting. Quote MAFIA INFORMANT SAMMY "THE BULL" GRAVANO "Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #45 December 3, 2004 It isn't so much about more guns as it is about WHO has the guns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #46 December 3, 2004 Absolutely agree that criminals will get the guns before the law abiding citizens - but more legal guns also means more illegal. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #47 December 3, 2004 That is the key disagreement we have. I don't think that one affects the other and there will never be any way to tell the difference because the criminals will not submit to a gun registration so that the guns can be tracked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #48 December 3, 2004 QuoteThink that guns are a little different - not quite so easy to make at home (not for most people) HA! Give me a bit under an hour and I can make you a zip gun. Any idiot can make a zip gun, that's why they were a problem back in the 30s, 40s and 50s throughout the low end of society. Hell, you probably don't even know what a zip gun is.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #49 December 3, 2004 hmm, I am not sure why its a hard link to see.... Lets say I wanted to break the law right now... I would have no idea where to get a gun. Absolutely no one I know would likely be able to help me (and I know some fairly unsavoury characters) If my brother or friend had a gun in his bedroom drawer - TADA... not so tough anymore? If every household had a gun here - I think it goes without saying that access to guns is ALOT easier. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #50 December 3, 2004 QuoteHell, you probably don't even know what a zip gun is. A little presumptious. And does that go for making the shells too? ohh and let me just nip down to the shop for my groceries and a quart of gunpowder. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
