SkyDekker 1,147 #76 November 16, 2004 QuoteSounds like someone needs to spend more time in Bonfire and less time in Speakers Corner. Why do people complain about gun threads rather than just refrain from reading them?? And why do they use their own personal distaste for them as an excuse to tell others what they should or should not care/post/read about?? Has it ever occured to you that maybe this thread did not start of in Speaker's Corner? I suggest you read post number 2 of this thread....then maybe it would be time to remove the foot from your mouth.......and it would probably behoove a gentleman like yourself to apologize for your rather uncalled for outburst. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #77 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuote People here are asking me to forgive a fucking DRUNK who might break into my house No. Just dont kill him. If they act in a manner that makes me think they are going to cause me grievous bodily harm, or death, I will shoot, and continue to shoot until the threat is gone. That choice is ENTIRELY upon the person breaking into my house.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,149 #78 November 16, 2004 QuoteMy view is that people choose their actions in life, and those actions help determine whether they are worthy of others giving respect to their lives or not. Mine too. But my criteria are based on the kindness and respect for humanity with which people treat each other. And I have no desire to impose the death penalty single-handed on anyone. And I don't own anything that's worth killing over. It's all stuff. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #79 November 16, 2004 QuoteAnd I don't own anything that's worth killing over. It's all stuff. BUT the state of TX still says you can if you saw it morally right to do so.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,149 #80 November 16, 2004 The state law of Texas also says it's illegal to go over the speed limit, and for certain forms of "nonstandard" sex between consenting partners. Just because the state of Texas tells me I can doesn't mean I think it's right. Edit to add: I'm perfectly capable of many things; I hope I'm never placed in a situation where I have to protect human life by being violent -- that would be hard on a personal level. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #81 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteMy view is that people choose their actions in life, and those actions help determine whether they are worthy of others giving respect to their lives or not. Mine too. But my criteria are based on the kindness and respect for humanity with which people treat each other. And I have no desire to impose the death penalty single-handed on anyone. And I don't own anything that's worth killing over. It's all stuff. Wendy W. I understand that point, and I respect it. But where do you draw the line? He wants your wallet, fine - it's only stuff. Your car? Fine, only stuff. How about when he wants your body? Your child's body? Your life? Your child's life? I don't completely understand the whole "violence never solved anything" mindset - history has disproven that time and time again. I will say this - if you were attacked, and I was there, they would have to go THROUGH me and climb over a pile of spent brass to get to YOUMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #82 November 16, 2004 "There it is, the hidden secret: Great Britain is armed." For every day concealed carry, one of those little domestic 1Kg dry powder jobs will do. http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=113152 Easily concealed under a light jacket, and they come in a variety of grip styles to suit every hand. They also look pretty innocent on open display in a car, or around the house, in the pub etc. Thats okay for stopping an assailant that might surprise you, but not an awful lot of good for stopping a determined attack. In that situation I'd recommend something along the lines of a 3.5kg carbon dioxide unit. http://www.wormald.com.au/fireproducts/commercialfireproducts/extinguishers#c02 These have heavier walls to the cylinder and so are more likely to stop even determined attackers. The discharge horn can give you extended reach if you have time to prepare for the onslaught. If you hit a perp with one of these babies, he won't be getting up for quite a while. The capacity and medium stored makes it a better all round fire extinguisher too. If you ever get the chance to have a play on a fire training ground (such as the excellent facility at Bryan College Station--nods at Aggiedave) I'd recommend one of these twin agent units http://www.firecombat.com/ftwin.htm They are a little overkill and difficult to conceal for everyday use, but great fun nevertheless. Remember, fire extinguishers don't kill people, people kill people. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,149 #83 November 16, 2004 QuoteI don't completely understand the whole "violence never solved anything" mindset - history has disproven that time and time again. I edited my post while you were making this one. I don't really think that pre-emptive escalation of violence is a good thing. Defensive violence, especially in defense of something precious, is different. I just kind of wonder about people who think their stuff is all that precious. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #84 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteI don't completely understand the whole "violence never solved anything" mindset - history has disproven that time and time again. I edited my post while you were making this one. I don't really think that pre-emptive escalation of violence is a good thing. Defensive violence, especially in defense of something precious, is different. I just kind of wonder about people who think their stuff is all that precious. Wendy W. I'm of mixed mind about it - I've been burgled before, and probably will be again. Most (please note I said MOST) stuff can be replaced. What value do you place on the portion of your life wasted by them taking your stuff, though?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #85 November 16, 2004 QuoteFor every day concealed carry, one of those little domestic 1Kg dry powder jobs will do. http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=113152 Easily concealed under a light jacket, and they come in a variety of grip styles to suit every hand. They also look pretty innocent on open display in a car, or around the house, in the pub etc. Thats okay for stopping an assailant that might surprise you, but not an awful lot of good for stopping a determined attack. In that situation I'd recommend something along the lines of a 3.5kg carbon dioxide unit. http://www.wormald.com.au/fireproducts/commercialfireproducts/extinguishers#c02 These have heavier walls to the cylinder and so are more likely to stop even determined attackers. The discharge horn can give you extended reach if you have time to prepare for the onslaught. If you hit a perp with one of these babies, he won't be getting up for quite a while. The capacity and medium stored makes it a better all round fire extinguisher too. If you ever get the chance to have a play on a fire training ground (such as the excellent facility at Bryan College Station--nods at Aggiedave) I'd recommend one of these twin agent units http://www.firecombat.com/ftwin.htm They are a little overkill and difficult to conceal for everyday use, but great fun nevertheless. Well, that would mean a larger handbag then. And a little change in my usual outfit QuoteRemember, fire extinguishers don't kill people, people kill people. Thx and noted. I knew, there will be so many essential things to learn on DZ.com dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #86 November 16, 2004 QuoteI just kind of wonder about people who think their stuff is all that precious. Well, my truck is kinda old so I've been sort of hoping it would get stolen... Try to take my Senior boots, though, well, we're gonna have a "talk." I have renter's insurance for a reason, on the flip side, if they're in my house, they are now a personal threat to me and my fiancee. I'm not going to stand there and as him if he's there only to take my TV or to come back and rape my soon to be wife. Wendy, if you found a perp in your house or heard one coming into your house, how would you respond? If it was me, they're leaving out the door/window with my TV. Fine, I make a claim and get a new TV, whatever. If they're coming into the house or in my house, they are a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and swiftly. (edit: I just realized that I don't think many people except Wendy will know what "senior boots" are. If you don't know, don't worry about it, just understand that you can't just buy them, you earn them and they a worth much much more then the $1000 they cost)--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,149 #87 November 16, 2004 QuoteWhat value do you place on the portion of your life wasted by them taking your stuff, though? I've been burgled 4 times, in 3 houses (2 were in the same house with some special circumstances). I had insurance in only 2 of those situations. It pissed me off. I was really glad that the neighbor caught the perpetrators in the first one and held them (yes, at gunpoint) until the police came. He said he'd've let them leave rather than shoot in a neighborhood, though, and I'm glad he thought that way, too. I'd've felt terrible to have even some punk shot over a damn bicycle and some (admittedly nice) jewelry. It's pretty much all stuff. Yes, my jewelry, the videos of our son when he was a baby, the camera, my bicycle (lots more) -- it's all stuff. It could have been a fire, it could have been a flood, and it would probably have been far more devastating. I can get more stuff. Better stuff. Different stuff. The time I spend acquiring that was not wasted; it was time spent in fruitful and sometimes enjoyable activities. Just as I don't regret most things I've done that didn't turn out well; they're part of my experience, and what makes me who I am. And that's not wasted. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,149 #88 November 16, 2004 QuoteWendy, if you found a perp in your house or heard one coming into your house, how would you respond? Many years ago I lived in a duplex; one Saturday morning I was lying in bed late when I heard footsteps in the apartment. I was, obviously, terrified. I pulled the quilt up over my head and pretended to sleep . Not smart. But, well, it turned out that it was a realtor showing the other side of the duplex. So, embarrassing though it may be, I do know how I reacted once. I have more resources (and some practice on using them) now in my bedroom (cell phone, dogs, other stuff), and hope not to repeat that mistake. But I'll probably still not shoot first and ask questions later. Coulda shoulda woulda, but it didn't. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Paulipod 0 #89 November 16, 2004 Quote I'm not going to stand there and as him if he's there only to take my TV or to come back and rape my soon to be wife. I would be the same, but I guess most burglars run when they are confronted... if they are staying to argue the toss - fair game. As for PJ's statement on shooting someone going to burn the house... with no one in it... a step too far in my book. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #90 November 16, 2004 QuoteSo try and help me out here and give me something to work off...would you pull the trigger? Not really a good question. Anyone that thinks they will may not. Just compare pulling the reserve to someone saying they would shoot. You may THINK you will, and you will SAY you will. But most will not. I'd like to think I would...But I don't know. I do have the benefit of military training and hours of quick reaction drills....So it might be automatic. But you or I will not know till that time comes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #91 November 16, 2004 Quote I'm perfectly capable of many things; I hope I'm never placed in a situation where I have to protect human life by being violent -- that would be hard on a personal level. Wendy W. QuoteThese threads come up from time to time and are for the most part short on information but long on entertainment. There is always a lot of macho chest beating about what "I would do.." for these fantacy scenarieos. In the real world most of it's bullshit. You will do what YOU PERCIVE to be the right thing at the time. And we're are all human, our perceptions change constantly. A good example is the post about possibly shooting someone stealing a truck because it's all that's between being homeless or eating another day. The poster, now on a better finanical standings has a different perception of the stiuation. If you are having a bad day, you may act more agressively and so too, if you are feeling gererous you may not opt to use deadly force even when justified but unnecessary Guys like Aggie Dave that take the time and expense to train themselves for such possible eventualities, and have an understanding of the law and it's implications are not the norm. But even with proper training, no one can say definitively what they will do when 'theory becomes fact'. And I'm here to tell you...Wendy is absolutely right. Justified or not... if you are a decent reasonably intelligent human being, the taking of another persons life will effect you. And for the rest of your life. In a similar thread some time back I went into the particulars, at least generally.. Of a situation I was involved in. A home invasion that resulted in one dead and one critically wounded, with my then SO and I fortunately able to walk away. Alive, but forever scared both physically and emotionally. No hero chest beating...no thoughts after about "Fuckers had it coming" When you are ACTUALLY defending your life, it's no TV show or day at the shooting range. You know that your life is seconds from being over, and if you think you've ever felt 'real' fear skydiving...you haven't Okay...so... Now that you John Wayned the immediate crisis, now what? Well, in my case, it was so unquestionably justifiable that there wasn't even a criminal case so to speak. There were several civil cases filed against me though. And a fantastic solid relationship with my SO went south in a hurry. Sleepless nights, counseling, problems at work, the different way friends and family talk to ~ and about you. There were threats made against me and my family that went on for almost 5 years. I did what I had to to.... Absolutely. No question. My actions saved our lives, and that at least is some solace. But you truly need to understand that if something like that happens to you... the whole story cannot be summed up in a paragraph of the "Armed Citizen" section of the National Rifleman magazine. I grew up with guns and stay proficient. I will always do whatever is necessary to protect myself and those in my charge. I've changed somewhat in that I more aggressively take steps to lessen the chances of needing to do so, but clearly there is always that possibility. The query that the original poster has regarding their carry permit...and their ability to shoot if the need came; It's a personal decision, not something anyone else can or should make for you. You know if you have the skills and ability... you know, at least can presume the odds of encountering a situation where deadly force is required. Be prepared for it, but don't waste you life walking around at DEFCOM 1... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mardigrasbob 0 #92 November 16, 2004 O.K. I've been catching shit for my kneecap comment. It started as a joke but a biting one. All these heros are talking center mass, kill the scumbag, empty your weapon,etc. Others are saying burglars don't murder, let them have your stuff,scare them and they'll run. All situations are very different. very few of us (civilians) will ever have to use a weapon in self defense so it is easy to say what to do. From my perspective; guns are tools, very beautiful works of art, and a bit of a hobby. Parachute rig and Harley with a bang if you will. Like any tool, a handgun has to be used appropiately. Blasting away an entire magazine because some boundry has been crossed is overreacting and dangerous to you and others(projectiles once launched are not retrievable). You don't nail two 2X4s together with 15 nails 2 will do. At the same time in the eyes of a criminal or predator; you either a lamb or a wolf. A well armed lamb is more dangerous than a wolf. Main things are: Practice at various distances. Know your weapon, the safety, the receiver, if you pull the trigger and nothing happens you're fucked! and never never show it off! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 6 #93 November 16, 2004 Quote and never never show it off! Quote Allow me elaborate on that statement a bit if you will. There are several good reasons to follow that advice. First and foremost, it a lousy Poker move to show you're hand..before the betting starts. Another reason is that if you are the kind of person constantly 'showing off' your weapon(s)... You're a jerk and no doubt have more shortcomings than any gun could compensate for. If you think somehow you're cool because your armed, and you have the need to let everyone else in on it- YOU'RE NOT! Believe me...you're not the only one with a gun, and more often than not, someone you're trying to impress has just checked the position of HIS weapon, because you have just shown yourself to be a possible threat. But there is still another good reason~ If and when a situation comes up in which you have taken the life of another...again, justifiable or not. You have just opened the whole book on your life as far as having to answer to your actions in front of a judge and or a jury of your peers. I mean get real...people are suing McDonalds over hot coffee, You think Mr. RobberRapist guy's wife-kids-mom, isn't going to try to in court, go after some of the marbles you were trying to protect? You really don't want to show up in court with tiger strip camos and an arm load of "Soldier of Fortune" magazines. You will become familiar with terms like intent and excessive force. You will be accused of 'laying in wait' because you were prepared. Your background will be closely examined, criminal activities, bank and phone and travel records... Attempts will be made to twist everything you do/did & say/said to make it look like YOU were totally responsible for the bad guy getting double tapped in the 10 ring. Just for the sake of conversation... If you don't already know... when interviewed about an event like this, you need to choose your words carefully. You DID NOT intend to kill the perp...you were shooting to STOP that person from harming you. You will be asked questions pertaining to your choice of weapon, the ammunition, your skill level. question: ..."Sir, at what time in your life did you make the conscious choice to keep an unlocked handgun, loaded with 'cop-killer' bullets in a drawer in your living room?" answer: "What are cop-killer bullets? I just put in it, what the gun store guy said would be best for personal defense." (they were black talons not 'Teflon' rounds, but the attorney wanted to make the point that "special" deadly ammo was specifically purchased for just such an occasion.) It's real..it happens... So if you are the kind of person with a history of waving around guns...or seemingly hoping the day will come you 'get' to shoot someone... Be prepared for an interesting ride, because after the hammer drops...the fun has only just started! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #94 November 16, 2004 QuoteFirst and foremost, it a lousy Poker move to show you're hand..before the betting starts. Don't ever pull a weapon unles you plan on using it....Along the same lines, don't carry one unless you are willing to use it. If you are going to have or carry one...Train in its use. Don't be one of those people who buy a gun and never shoot it since they bough it "Just in case". Thats like buying a reserve, but never practicing pulling the handle. If you don't plan on getting familar with it...Don't get one, you can cause more harm than good if you don't know what you are doing. Quotewhen interviewed about an event like this, you need to choose your words carefully. You DID NOT intend to kill the perp...you were shooting to STOP that person from harming you. You will be asked questions pertaining to your choice of weapon, the ammunition, your skill level. Which is why I laugh at people who carry a chrome 8" 44 mag. If he and I are both involved in a defense shooting... Which looks more Rambo, him with a that hand cannon, or me and and my small Lady Smith .357, or black Glock .40?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #95 November 16, 2004 Quote Don't ever pull a weapon unles you plan on using it....Along the same lines, don't carry one unless you are willing to use it. I completely agree with you Ron. I just hate it when people say it is wrong to draw without firing it. If a person presents the sort of threat that requires pulling a gun, well of course, pull the gun. But if he sees you pull then turns and runs away, don't shoot him as he runs away. That is a perfect example of 'pull the gun if you need it, shoot the gun if you need to.' Just because you had to draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. However, like you said, if you have it, be ready to use it. Quote Which is why I laugh at people who carry a chrome 8" 44 mag. You know somebody who carries that for self defense? I hope that it's for self defense form bears in the Alaskan wilds, not perps in the urban jungle. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #96 November 16, 2004 QuoteThat is a perfect example of 'pull the gun if you need it, shoot the gun if you need to.' Just because you had to draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. Yes agree 100%. Sorry if it was not perfecty clear. Pull it if you have to and be ready to use it, but don't fire unless you HAVE to. I have gotten out of a few situations by a show of strength without ever having to do anything more than make it clear I was not going to just sit there and be mugged. Don't own one unless you are willing to train with it, and don't carry unless you are willing to use it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dtpilot 0 #97 November 16, 2004 Quote Most burglars dont enter a house with the intention of killing the occupants. Likewise - I also believe (much as I hate the arseholes for doing it) that most burglars dont deserve to die or be shot. They may not intend on killing the occupants but they also dont intent to enter an occupied home. So inturn they dont want to be caught so goodbye good guy right. The more I think about all the responses the more confident I am about shooting when the time comes. So if the gun is pulled the trigger is next. But I do understand that the gun looks scary and a perp will see it and hopefully run and I never have believed in shooting someone in the back. If they are running away they are no longer a threat and in oklahoma I would go to jail for murder for sure. They stated that very clearly in the class. "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!" -- Friedrich Nietzsche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #98 November 16, 2004 QuoteWhich looks more Rambo, him with a that hand cannon, or me and and my small Lady Smith .357, or black Glock .40? That's why none of my carry weapons wonder around past stock (besides upgrading the sites or something trivial like that). No custom engraving, no custom engraved grips, nothing. Also, only off the shelf extremely popular defense ammo. No reloads for carry. All of those things can be used against you by a good lawyer for the "see, he was wanting to kill someone, not defend himself" bit.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,147 #99 November 16, 2004 QuoteThat's why none of my carry weapons wonder around past stock (besides upgrading the sites or something trivial like that). No custom engraving, no custom engraved grips, nothing. Also, only off the shelf extremely popular defense ammo. No reloads for carry. All of those things can be used against you by a good lawyer for the "see, he was wanting to kill someone, not defend himself" bit. Dave, not picking on you, but when I read stuff like that I am happy that life is simpler in my neck of the woods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #100 November 16, 2004 Simpler due to the lawsuit culture here in the US? The lawsuit culture is fucking bullshit, there are some honest to god lawsuits that should happen, but most of them I've seen/heard about are total bullshit. Awarding millions of dollars for stupidity, destroying companies and people's lives simply because you can sue them and take EVERYthing they have. Its bullshit.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 4 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
mnealtx 0 #77 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuote People here are asking me to forgive a fucking DRUNK who might break into my house No. Just dont kill him. If they act in a manner that makes me think they are going to cause me grievous bodily harm, or death, I will shoot, and continue to shoot until the threat is gone. That choice is ENTIRELY upon the person breaking into my house.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #78 November 16, 2004 QuoteMy view is that people choose their actions in life, and those actions help determine whether they are worthy of others giving respect to their lives or not. Mine too. But my criteria are based on the kindness and respect for humanity with which people treat each other. And I have no desire to impose the death penalty single-handed on anyone. And I don't own anything that's worth killing over. It's all stuff. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #79 November 16, 2004 QuoteAnd I don't own anything that's worth killing over. It's all stuff. BUT the state of TX still says you can if you saw it morally right to do so.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #80 November 16, 2004 The state law of Texas also says it's illegal to go over the speed limit, and for certain forms of "nonstandard" sex between consenting partners. Just because the state of Texas tells me I can doesn't mean I think it's right. Edit to add: I'm perfectly capable of many things; I hope I'm never placed in a situation where I have to protect human life by being violent -- that would be hard on a personal level. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #81 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteMy view is that people choose their actions in life, and those actions help determine whether they are worthy of others giving respect to their lives or not. Mine too. But my criteria are based on the kindness and respect for humanity with which people treat each other. And I have no desire to impose the death penalty single-handed on anyone. And I don't own anything that's worth killing over. It's all stuff. Wendy W. I understand that point, and I respect it. But where do you draw the line? He wants your wallet, fine - it's only stuff. Your car? Fine, only stuff. How about when he wants your body? Your child's body? Your life? Your child's life? I don't completely understand the whole "violence never solved anything" mindset - history has disproven that time and time again. I will say this - if you were attacked, and I was there, they would have to go THROUGH me and climb over a pile of spent brass to get to YOUMike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #82 November 16, 2004 "There it is, the hidden secret: Great Britain is armed." For every day concealed carry, one of those little domestic 1Kg dry powder jobs will do. http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=113152 Easily concealed under a light jacket, and they come in a variety of grip styles to suit every hand. They also look pretty innocent on open display in a car, or around the house, in the pub etc. Thats okay for stopping an assailant that might surprise you, but not an awful lot of good for stopping a determined attack. In that situation I'd recommend something along the lines of a 3.5kg carbon dioxide unit. http://www.wormald.com.au/fireproducts/commercialfireproducts/extinguishers#c02 These have heavier walls to the cylinder and so are more likely to stop even determined attackers. The discharge horn can give you extended reach if you have time to prepare for the onslaught. If you hit a perp with one of these babies, he won't be getting up for quite a while. The capacity and medium stored makes it a better all round fire extinguisher too. If you ever get the chance to have a play on a fire training ground (such as the excellent facility at Bryan College Station--nods at Aggiedave) I'd recommend one of these twin agent units http://www.firecombat.com/ftwin.htm They are a little overkill and difficult to conceal for everyday use, but great fun nevertheless. Remember, fire extinguishers don't kill people, people kill people. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #83 November 16, 2004 QuoteI don't completely understand the whole "violence never solved anything" mindset - history has disproven that time and time again. I edited my post while you were making this one. I don't really think that pre-emptive escalation of violence is a good thing. Defensive violence, especially in defense of something precious, is different. I just kind of wonder about people who think their stuff is all that precious. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #84 November 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteI don't completely understand the whole "violence never solved anything" mindset - history has disproven that time and time again. I edited my post while you were making this one. I don't really think that pre-emptive escalation of violence is a good thing. Defensive violence, especially in defense of something precious, is different. I just kind of wonder about people who think their stuff is all that precious. Wendy W. I'm of mixed mind about it - I've been burgled before, and probably will be again. Most (please note I said MOST) stuff can be replaced. What value do you place on the portion of your life wasted by them taking your stuff, though?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #85 November 16, 2004 QuoteFor every day concealed carry, one of those little domestic 1Kg dry powder jobs will do. http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=113152 Easily concealed under a light jacket, and they come in a variety of grip styles to suit every hand. They also look pretty innocent on open display in a car, or around the house, in the pub etc. Thats okay for stopping an assailant that might surprise you, but not an awful lot of good for stopping a determined attack. In that situation I'd recommend something along the lines of a 3.5kg carbon dioxide unit. http://www.wormald.com.au/fireproducts/commercialfireproducts/extinguishers#c02 These have heavier walls to the cylinder and so are more likely to stop even determined attackers. The discharge horn can give you extended reach if you have time to prepare for the onslaught. If you hit a perp with one of these babies, he won't be getting up for quite a while. The capacity and medium stored makes it a better all round fire extinguisher too. If you ever get the chance to have a play on a fire training ground (such as the excellent facility at Bryan College Station--nods at Aggiedave) I'd recommend one of these twin agent units http://www.firecombat.com/ftwin.htm They are a little overkill and difficult to conceal for everyday use, but great fun nevertheless. Well, that would mean a larger handbag then. And a little change in my usual outfit QuoteRemember, fire extinguishers don't kill people, people kill people. Thx and noted. I knew, there will be so many essential things to learn on DZ.com dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #86 November 16, 2004 QuoteI just kind of wonder about people who think their stuff is all that precious. Well, my truck is kinda old so I've been sort of hoping it would get stolen... Try to take my Senior boots, though, well, we're gonna have a "talk." I have renter's insurance for a reason, on the flip side, if they're in my house, they are now a personal threat to me and my fiancee. I'm not going to stand there and as him if he's there only to take my TV or to come back and rape my soon to be wife. Wendy, if you found a perp in your house or heard one coming into your house, how would you respond? If it was me, they're leaving out the door/window with my TV. Fine, I make a claim and get a new TV, whatever. If they're coming into the house or in my house, they are a threat and will be dealt with accordingly and swiftly. (edit: I just realized that I don't think many people except Wendy will know what "senior boots" are. If you don't know, don't worry about it, just understand that you can't just buy them, you earn them and they a worth much much more then the $1000 they cost)--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #87 November 16, 2004 QuoteWhat value do you place on the portion of your life wasted by them taking your stuff, though? I've been burgled 4 times, in 3 houses (2 were in the same house with some special circumstances). I had insurance in only 2 of those situations. It pissed me off. I was really glad that the neighbor caught the perpetrators in the first one and held them (yes, at gunpoint) until the police came. He said he'd've let them leave rather than shoot in a neighborhood, though, and I'm glad he thought that way, too. I'd've felt terrible to have even some punk shot over a damn bicycle and some (admittedly nice) jewelry. It's pretty much all stuff. Yes, my jewelry, the videos of our son when he was a baby, the camera, my bicycle (lots more) -- it's all stuff. It could have been a fire, it could have been a flood, and it would probably have been far more devastating. I can get more stuff. Better stuff. Different stuff. The time I spend acquiring that was not wasted; it was time spent in fruitful and sometimes enjoyable activities. Just as I don't regret most things I've done that didn't turn out well; they're part of my experience, and what makes me who I am. And that's not wasted. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,149 #88 November 16, 2004 QuoteWendy, if you found a perp in your house or heard one coming into your house, how would you respond? Many years ago I lived in a duplex; one Saturday morning I was lying in bed late when I heard footsteps in the apartment. I was, obviously, terrified. I pulled the quilt up over my head and pretended to sleep . Not smart. But, well, it turned out that it was a realtor showing the other side of the duplex. So, embarrassing though it may be, I do know how I reacted once. I have more resources (and some practice on using them) now in my bedroom (cell phone, dogs, other stuff), and hope not to repeat that mistake. But I'll probably still not shoot first and ask questions later. Coulda shoulda woulda, but it didn't. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #89 November 16, 2004 Quote I'm not going to stand there and as him if he's there only to take my TV or to come back and rape my soon to be wife. I would be the same, but I guess most burglars run when they are confronted... if they are staying to argue the toss - fair game. As for PJ's statement on shooting someone going to burn the house... with no one in it... a step too far in my book. Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #90 November 16, 2004 QuoteSo try and help me out here and give me something to work off...would you pull the trigger? Not really a good question. Anyone that thinks they will may not. Just compare pulling the reserve to someone saying they would shoot. You may THINK you will, and you will SAY you will. But most will not. I'd like to think I would...But I don't know. I do have the benefit of military training and hours of quick reaction drills....So it might be automatic. But you or I will not know till that time comes."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #91 November 16, 2004 Quote I'm perfectly capable of many things; I hope I'm never placed in a situation where I have to protect human life by being violent -- that would be hard on a personal level. Wendy W. QuoteThese threads come up from time to time and are for the most part short on information but long on entertainment. There is always a lot of macho chest beating about what "I would do.." for these fantacy scenarieos. In the real world most of it's bullshit. You will do what YOU PERCIVE to be the right thing at the time. And we're are all human, our perceptions change constantly. A good example is the post about possibly shooting someone stealing a truck because it's all that's between being homeless or eating another day. The poster, now on a better finanical standings has a different perception of the stiuation. If you are having a bad day, you may act more agressively and so too, if you are feeling gererous you may not opt to use deadly force even when justified but unnecessary Guys like Aggie Dave that take the time and expense to train themselves for such possible eventualities, and have an understanding of the law and it's implications are not the norm. But even with proper training, no one can say definitively what they will do when 'theory becomes fact'. And I'm here to tell you...Wendy is absolutely right. Justified or not... if you are a decent reasonably intelligent human being, the taking of another persons life will effect you. And for the rest of your life. In a similar thread some time back I went into the particulars, at least generally.. Of a situation I was involved in. A home invasion that resulted in one dead and one critically wounded, with my then SO and I fortunately able to walk away. Alive, but forever scared both physically and emotionally. No hero chest beating...no thoughts after about "Fuckers had it coming" When you are ACTUALLY defending your life, it's no TV show or day at the shooting range. You know that your life is seconds from being over, and if you think you've ever felt 'real' fear skydiving...you haven't Okay...so... Now that you John Wayned the immediate crisis, now what? Well, in my case, it was so unquestionably justifiable that there wasn't even a criminal case so to speak. There were several civil cases filed against me though. And a fantastic solid relationship with my SO went south in a hurry. Sleepless nights, counseling, problems at work, the different way friends and family talk to ~ and about you. There were threats made against me and my family that went on for almost 5 years. I did what I had to to.... Absolutely. No question. My actions saved our lives, and that at least is some solace. But you truly need to understand that if something like that happens to you... the whole story cannot be summed up in a paragraph of the "Armed Citizen" section of the National Rifleman magazine. I grew up with guns and stay proficient. I will always do whatever is necessary to protect myself and those in my charge. I've changed somewhat in that I more aggressively take steps to lessen the chances of needing to do so, but clearly there is always that possibility. The query that the original poster has regarding their carry permit...and their ability to shoot if the need came; It's a personal decision, not something anyone else can or should make for you. You know if you have the skills and ability... you know, at least can presume the odds of encountering a situation where deadly force is required. Be prepared for it, but don't waste you life walking around at DEFCOM 1... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #92 November 16, 2004 O.K. I've been catching shit for my kneecap comment. It started as a joke but a biting one. All these heros are talking center mass, kill the scumbag, empty your weapon,etc. Others are saying burglars don't murder, let them have your stuff,scare them and they'll run. All situations are very different. very few of us (civilians) will ever have to use a weapon in self defense so it is easy to say what to do. From my perspective; guns are tools, very beautiful works of art, and a bit of a hobby. Parachute rig and Harley with a bang if you will. Like any tool, a handgun has to be used appropiately. Blasting away an entire magazine because some boundry has been crossed is overreacting and dangerous to you and others(projectiles once launched are not retrievable). You don't nail two 2X4s together with 15 nails 2 will do. At the same time in the eyes of a criminal or predator; you either a lamb or a wolf. A well armed lamb is more dangerous than a wolf. Main things are: Practice at various distances. Know your weapon, the safety, the receiver, if you pull the trigger and nothing happens you're fucked! and never never show it off! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #93 November 16, 2004 Quote and never never show it off! Quote Allow me elaborate on that statement a bit if you will. There are several good reasons to follow that advice. First and foremost, it a lousy Poker move to show you're hand..before the betting starts. Another reason is that if you are the kind of person constantly 'showing off' your weapon(s)... You're a jerk and no doubt have more shortcomings than any gun could compensate for. If you think somehow you're cool because your armed, and you have the need to let everyone else in on it- YOU'RE NOT! Believe me...you're not the only one with a gun, and more often than not, someone you're trying to impress has just checked the position of HIS weapon, because you have just shown yourself to be a possible threat. But there is still another good reason~ If and when a situation comes up in which you have taken the life of another...again, justifiable or not. You have just opened the whole book on your life as far as having to answer to your actions in front of a judge and or a jury of your peers. I mean get real...people are suing McDonalds over hot coffee, You think Mr. RobberRapist guy's wife-kids-mom, isn't going to try to in court, go after some of the marbles you were trying to protect? You really don't want to show up in court with tiger strip camos and an arm load of "Soldier of Fortune" magazines. You will become familiar with terms like intent and excessive force. You will be accused of 'laying in wait' because you were prepared. Your background will be closely examined, criminal activities, bank and phone and travel records... Attempts will be made to twist everything you do/did & say/said to make it look like YOU were totally responsible for the bad guy getting double tapped in the 10 ring. Just for the sake of conversation... If you don't already know... when interviewed about an event like this, you need to choose your words carefully. You DID NOT intend to kill the perp...you were shooting to STOP that person from harming you. You will be asked questions pertaining to your choice of weapon, the ammunition, your skill level. question: ..."Sir, at what time in your life did you make the conscious choice to keep an unlocked handgun, loaded with 'cop-killer' bullets in a drawer in your living room?" answer: "What are cop-killer bullets? I just put in it, what the gun store guy said would be best for personal defense." (they were black talons not 'Teflon' rounds, but the attorney wanted to make the point that "special" deadly ammo was specifically purchased for just such an occasion.) It's real..it happens... So if you are the kind of person with a history of waving around guns...or seemingly hoping the day will come you 'get' to shoot someone... Be prepared for an interesting ride, because after the hammer drops...the fun has only just started! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #94 November 16, 2004 QuoteFirst and foremost, it a lousy Poker move to show you're hand..before the betting starts. Don't ever pull a weapon unles you plan on using it....Along the same lines, don't carry one unless you are willing to use it. If you are going to have or carry one...Train in its use. Don't be one of those people who buy a gun and never shoot it since they bough it "Just in case". Thats like buying a reserve, but never practicing pulling the handle. If you don't plan on getting familar with it...Don't get one, you can cause more harm than good if you don't know what you are doing. Quotewhen interviewed about an event like this, you need to choose your words carefully. You DID NOT intend to kill the perp...you were shooting to STOP that person from harming you. You will be asked questions pertaining to your choice of weapon, the ammunition, your skill level. Which is why I laugh at people who carry a chrome 8" 44 mag. If he and I are both involved in a defense shooting... Which looks more Rambo, him with a that hand cannon, or me and and my small Lady Smith .357, or black Glock .40?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #95 November 16, 2004 Quote Don't ever pull a weapon unles you plan on using it....Along the same lines, don't carry one unless you are willing to use it. I completely agree with you Ron. I just hate it when people say it is wrong to draw without firing it. If a person presents the sort of threat that requires pulling a gun, well of course, pull the gun. But if he sees you pull then turns and runs away, don't shoot him as he runs away. That is a perfect example of 'pull the gun if you need it, shoot the gun if you need to.' Just because you had to draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. However, like you said, if you have it, be ready to use it. Quote Which is why I laugh at people who carry a chrome 8" 44 mag. You know somebody who carries that for self defense? I hope that it's for self defense form bears in the Alaskan wilds, not perps in the urban jungle. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #96 November 16, 2004 QuoteThat is a perfect example of 'pull the gun if you need it, shoot the gun if you need to.' Just because you had to draw doesn't mean you have to shoot. Yes agree 100%. Sorry if it was not perfecty clear. Pull it if you have to and be ready to use it, but don't fire unless you HAVE to. I have gotten out of a few situations by a show of strength without ever having to do anything more than make it clear I was not going to just sit there and be mugged. Don't own one unless you are willing to train with it, and don't carry unless you are willing to use it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dtpilot 0 #97 November 16, 2004 Quote Most burglars dont enter a house with the intention of killing the occupants. Likewise - I also believe (much as I hate the arseholes for doing it) that most burglars dont deserve to die or be shot. They may not intend on killing the occupants but they also dont intent to enter an occupied home. So inturn they dont want to be caught so goodbye good guy right. The more I think about all the responses the more confident I am about shooting when the time comes. So if the gun is pulled the trigger is next. But I do understand that the gun looks scary and a perp will see it and hopefully run and I never have believed in shooting someone in the back. If they are running away they are no longer a threat and in oklahoma I would go to jail for murder for sure. They stated that very clearly in the class. "Believe me! The secret of reaping the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment from life is to live dangerously!" -- Friedrich Nietzsche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #98 November 16, 2004 QuoteWhich looks more Rambo, him with a that hand cannon, or me and and my small Lady Smith .357, or black Glock .40? That's why none of my carry weapons wonder around past stock (besides upgrading the sites or something trivial like that). No custom engraving, no custom engraved grips, nothing. Also, only off the shelf extremely popular defense ammo. No reloads for carry. All of those things can be used against you by a good lawyer for the "see, he was wanting to kill someone, not defend himself" bit.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,147 #99 November 16, 2004 QuoteThat's why none of my carry weapons wonder around past stock (besides upgrading the sites or something trivial like that). No custom engraving, no custom engraved grips, nothing. Also, only off the shelf extremely popular defense ammo. No reloads for carry. All of those things can be used against you by a good lawyer for the "see, he was wanting to kill someone, not defend himself" bit. Dave, not picking on you, but when I read stuff like that I am happy that life is simpler in my neck of the woods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #100 November 16, 2004 Simpler due to the lawsuit culture here in the US? The lawsuit culture is fucking bullshit, there are some honest to god lawsuits that should happen, but most of them I've seen/heard about are total bullshit. Awarding millions of dollars for stupidity, destroying companies and people's lives simply because you can sue them and take EVERYthing they have. Its bullshit.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
