Hey Cops...

[Airman1270 0]

In my work (radio news) I read police reports daily, and have noticed a disturbing trend toward arresting people for minor, non-violent violations.

The jail staff complains about the lack of space. The courts say they can't keep up with the workload. Meanwhile, a "free" American can be arrested for sleeping in his car in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

In addition, few people suspected of a crime are charged only with that crime. You can do one thing wrong and end up with five charges against you.

For example: The legislature passed a law imposing additional penalties for using a gun "during the commission of a crime." The law was sold to the public as a deterrent to misuse of a firearm. Yet, I read of a guy arrested at his home on a drug charge, and is additionally charged with a weapons violation simply because he happens to have a gun in the house. He didn't threaten anyone and didn't misuse the gun, yet was charged anyway.

Not too long ago, police work consisted of 1) helping people and 2) chasing bad guys. Now, the job description includes 1) helping people, 2) chasing bad guys, and 3) harassment of citizens and the enforcement of liberalism. I invite anyone who disagrees to explain why automobile searches have come to be described as "routine."

To what extent are these guys permitted to exercise discretion & common sense? If a situation can be resolved by writing a ticket or issuing a verbal warning, why is it necessary to make an arrest?

Since childhood we've been told the difference between a free society and a totalitarian dictatorship is that, in "free" America, the cops cannot stop you and demand to see your papers without cause. Yet, one cannot take a late night walk in certain places without being stopped by a cop demanding to see your I.D.

Suppose you swerve to avoid a loose dog, hit some wet leaves, and slide into a ditch. In the old days, a cop might offer a word of encouragement and help arrange for a wrecker. Today, he'll likely write you up for "driving too fast for conditions", a nebulous charge that can neither be proven nor refuted.

Why do they want to work a job that requires them to treat their fellow man in this manner?

The WFFC was moved from Quincy because of abusive police practices. They treat us like crap, then go off duty and whine about the public's lack of respect for law enforcement.

What's going on here?

Cheers,
Jon

[chutem 0]

Multiple charges=higher bail=more money for the courts to keep in fines. Also allows them to plea bargain "down" to what the original charge should have been. It's all about the money and lawyers. The individual police officer probably has more "paper work" for multiple charges to get the same "criminal" off the streets for one night, if that. I think this problem is the result higher ups than your average street cop.

James

[skycop 0]

Nah,
At least not in a District Court system. A municipal court system maybe, but not likely.

As far as some of the ideas in the first post, I'd disagree with most of them.

One example is a guy sleeping in his car. At face value sleeping in your car is not a problem. The problem comes with what's in your car or what you are doing in your car (besides sleeping).
I've been a cop for a long time in a urban area. Our arrests have absolutely nothing to do with revenue.

In the wonderful world of lawsuits I spend a majority of my time covering my ass. A good example is a guy sleeping in his car who has too much to drink.
I see a car with someone sleeping inside. I pretty much have to check on them mainly for their own safety ( I didn't do it once and it turned out the lady was dead, but that's another story).
I did check on a guy and let's say he's hammered and just wants to sleep it off without driving. I'm good with that, and it sounds reasonable right? After I leave the guy decides to drive off and gets into a wreck, guess who the civil liability rests with, me.
Or let's say I take his keys and tell him I'll be back when I get off to give them back, but I get tied up on something and it's several more hour after I get off. The guy then complains to my boss.
Or I put him in a cab, he waits until I leave and tells the cab to go back to his car.
Or I arrest him for being intoxicated, which is basically the same as a traffic ticket. He gets all pissed off and insults my family heritage. BUT my ass is covered, I didn't get hammered he did.
These examples have all happened to me personally.
There are many reasons why we do the things we do, the public normally doesn't understand.
The original post had a certain bias to it. I have a feeling no matter what I say, Airman is going to have negative feeling toward the police. These are just small examples of many factors we have to deal with.
Let the flaming begin!

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[Deuce 1]

Well, I'll share a story with you.

Cop pulls a guy over. Guy is really too drunk to drive but is just down the street from his house. Cop allows guy to drive home, watches him do so, on promise from guy that he's done for the night. Guy goes into his house, answers his phone, gets invited to great party, gets back in car and subsequently kills innocent people with car.

Cop is held liable for the drunk driving because it would not have happened if he arrested the guy in the first place.

Cops now have no discretion in arresting people for driving while drinking until they have proven sobriety via a field sobriety test, field breathalyzer, or regalah breathalizah.

Cop shows up at house where a couple is reported to be arguing. Walks up, hears people yelling, knocks on door, man and woman open door together, explain that they are having money trouble, and they are all argued out. Cop pulls each aside individually they both admit to having gotten out of hand, she slapped her husband and he grabbed her by arms and yelled in her face.

Both assure the cop it's OK, it's over. They settle down and have a drink, recommence their hostilities and eventually end up beating each other with bottles and knives.

Cop is held liable for not taking both of them on the first contact when they admitted physical violence. In CA this is a real biotch, usually both parties show some kind of injury and spousal battery is a shall take felony.

Cop has no discretion.

Do a seach of the California Penal Code for the word "shall". It means it doesn't matter what other extenuating circumstances existed.

When was the last time a group of young people were out, wondering where the cool bar was supposed to be and somebody suggested "Let's call the police!"

People call the cops when they have failed each other, either in trust, or mediation. The people don't trust cops as mediators, so they mostly detain folks so the lawyers can do the mediation.

Most cops don't whine about the public's support. Every day the know they are needed to solve other people's problems for them. Like parents dealing with their teenage children that they live in fear of. "Johnny, clean your room or I'll call the police!"

[Jimbo 0]

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3) harassment of citizens and the enforcement of liberalism

After reading the point of view of our resident policemen, it seems to me that it's the fault of Joe Citizen. If the people could be trusted to act responsibly the police wouldn't have to take what you see as drastic measures to get them off the street. Sad, isn't it?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[skycop 0]

Dude,
I couldn't have said it better!!

I had one domestic where eventually the male blew the Mrs. all over the walls with a 12 gauge in front of her 7yoa daughter. The Mrs. was on the phone with us when she got shot. I was 1/2 block away when the call came out, I missed being shot by probally 10 seconds. He decided to go out the back door instead of engaging me.
The Mrs. had dropped domestic charges before, the family of the Mrs. blamed us.

Welcome to my world.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[skycop 0]

One thing,
The WFFC didn't leave Quincy because of the cops.
They left because the City of Quincy felt alienated due to many jumpers thinking they could come there and do whatever the fuck they wanted. The City of Quincy mandated that the city cops work the event. Talk about oil and water, something had to give.
I'm a skydiver and a very mellow cop. I couldn't even imagine working the WWFC, let alone whuffo LEO's.
Don't blame the cops or the City of Quincy alone for the WFFC moving. Non-responsible jumpers that acted like dumbasses hold the same or more responsibility for the situation.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[freeryde13 0]

cops are just people. most people are sheep in this world. they are just following orders. until we get a better system, i find it better to talk to them firmly but politely, and don't really get fucked with by them. and i say this as someone who has had my run ins with cops and have been harrassed by them until i learned better how to deal with them.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[AggieDave 6]

Maybe that works up in New York, but here in Texas we tend to treat each other with respect. Maybe its the pure and simple fact that every time I've been pulled over since I was 21 I've been armed and its been 100% legal. So both people are armed, both people know each other's armed, both people are respectful. Never once have I been "abused" by a police officer. Infact, more then once I've been let to drive off with only a verbal warning when I was in direct violation of the law (15mph over at night in a work zone on the highway for example).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Airman1270 0]

...The original post had a certain bias to it. I have a feeling no matter what I say, Airman is going to have negative feeling toward the police...
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Thanks, guys. If there is a common theme to your responses, it's the fact that you are held personally responsible for failing to prevent bad things from happening. I would like to see more aggressive complaining to the state legislatures regarding this.
You all belong to professional organizations which have plenty of clout. Yet, when new laws are proposed, such as "family violence" laws, etc. which require you to interfere in people's personal lives, I don't see the organized protests, the letters to the newspapers, etc., against this idiocy.

You may have the best of intentions, but when you bust into someone's home because they had an argument, get involved in a personal family matter that is none of your damn business, and make an arrest despite the fact that 1) nobody is hurt, and 2) nobody wants to press charges, you're nothing but a nazi. Yes, the law may require you to make an arrest, but the law does not require you to work this job. At what point do you finally draw the line, look your supervisor in the eye, and say "NO, this is not why I became a cop"?

In the example I cited regarding the guy sleeping in his car, there was no allegation of intoxication. The guy was just sleeping. There's no reason the cop could not have tapped on the window and said "I'm sorry sir, but I have to ask you to move on." The guy would have driven away, and the cop would have gotten what he wanted without being a prick about it.

I don't accept the premise that it's necessary to put the screws to people because of an endless list of things that "could " happen if you don't.

I've lived 46 years without causing problems or getting in trouble. I have a clean record, and have no personal ax to grind. Any negative attitude I have is a recent development, prompted by the way the police treat us. I guess the eye-opener occurred ten years ago when a woman who lives near my home was arrested for spanking her kid in a supermarket. Any cop who ever interferes with my family in this manner would be wise to expect a bullet. This is not a rock-solid guarantee, but the chances of it happening are far greater than I ever thought possible.

Respect goes both ways.

Peace,
Jon

[Airman1270 0]

(Part 2... I had to leave my desk to do the news. My station manager treats this place like his personal living room, and thinks nothing of deleting my stuff so he can do something he could just as easily do at his own desk...)

By way of explanation... I (figuratively speaking) signed a contract with society as I entered adulthood. I agreed not to hurt people or take their stuff. In return, I could expect to be left alone. This system worked well for many years. Even when I drove from California to New York at the age of 20, with long hair and a bumper sticker that said "Warning- I Break for Hallucinations", I was never hassled without cause. The few traffic stops I experienced were minor incidents, most of which did not result in my being cited. (I was pleasant & polite, and did not have a bad attitude. Perhaps that helped...)

In the late '80's I was walking through town at night and was stopped by two cops who apparently thought I fit the description of someone they were looking for. They quickly determined that I was not the guy they wanted, said "thanks", and moved on. They did not demand that I empty my pockets, show I.D., run my name through a computer, or grill me as to where I was going or why I was out. They did their job without being unecessarily unpleasant. This did not seem at all unusual at the time.

15 years later I read of people being stopped & questioned in the absence of any evidence of criminal activity. This is offensive, and I resent it. If it can happen to others, it can happen to me. I've been taking late-night walks for nearly 30 years and don't appreciate the treatment I can expect when the day comes that a cop wants to know where I'm going and I explain that it's none of his business.

My brother-in-law is a recently-retired New York City cop. He told a story once that explains some of the pressure from above: He was working traffic and stopped an out-of-state guy for making an illegal turn. The guy was lost & confused, something anyone who has ever driven in NYC can appreciate.
Bob gave the guy a verbal warning, then gave directions to help him get to his destination. That guy drove away with a healthy respect for the police and the city; meanwhile, Bob was chewed out for not writing a ticket. Bob spent the rest of his career working diligently to combat serious criminals, but doing only the bare minimum required to comply with orders regarding the petty stuff.

Of course, NYC is firmly in control of liberals and their concomitant tax- and social policies. The city needs money, and the courts are regarded as a revenue source. I've spoken to several former cops who explained that they got out of the business because they were under pressure to treat the job as a money-making endeavor.

In other words, I have a reasonable idea of what I'm talking about and resent my concerns being dismissed as "cop bashing." I live a quiet peaceful life, and in return expect to be left alone. If I commit an infraction, I expect the police to deal with me in the least intrusive manner possible. Write me a ticket, if you must, for failing to signal my lane change, but, no, you can't search my car without a warrant.

This business of being held liable if you treat citizens as you would want to be treated is a valid concern. I'd like to see the police leadership start making noise about this and pressure the legislatures to address the situation, perhaps as part of the process toward legal reform.

Ever notice how every investigation into the erosion of freedom always seems to arrive at the role played by the litigation lobby?

Cheers,
Jon

[miked10270 0]

So far I haven't bitten... But...

You state you work in the News Media. There's a saying over here that "Dog Bites Man isn't news, Man Bites Dog IS news."

In effect, what you tend to see crossing your desk every day is the unusual and sordid, which tends to give a skewed view. Would you EVER consider "Cops don't arrest anyone" newsworthy? How about "Cop Happily Married for 25 Years"?

Then again, "Cop Goes Postal" or "Cop caught in Illegal Brothel" would sure as hell get loads of media attention!

What I'm saying is that you shouldn't confuse what's typical with what makes the news.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Airman1270 0]

I read the raw reports. In the case of the guy sleeping in his car, the report did not mention allegations of drunkenness.

The narcotics guys are a world unto themselves. I've noticed that they frequently don't even bother to offer a justification for an automobile search. Most of the other guys will at least articulate a reason for the search, such as the smell of pot, a crack pipe in plain view, etc. The drug teams will offer some vacuous reason for making the stop, such as "failure to maintain lane" or a broken tag light, but everybody knows they stopped the guy just to check him out and see what they can find.

A local grandmother who fails to signal a turn may have nothing to fear, but God help two guys in their 20's passing through on the interstate with out-of-state tags.

In the event the cops find nothing and let the driver go on his way, they don't turn in a report for the incident.

I don't much care what happens to traffickers, but they're not the only people being stopped, searched, and treated like crap.

My point is that "free" Americans who are not doing anything wrong are being hassled in ways that used to be unthinkable. This problem is compounded by legislatures inventing crimes, making it illegal to do things we were once free to do.

Thanks,
Jon

[Deuce 1]

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My point is that "free" Americans who are not doing anything wrong are being hassled in ways that used to be unthinkable.

Trust me, the cops would rather be drinking coffee and playing their gameboys than finding ways to violate people's rights.

People call the cops on each other. In busy cities the cops hardly ever get the chance to self-initiate an investigation, cause they've got 10 calls stacked as soon as they go in-service.

The only other way to end up talking with the popo is if you do something to attract their attention. The case of somebody truly going about their business, in daylight, getting hassled by the cops is just about nil.

[unformed 0]

Cops are just like the rest of us ... lazy, don't want to work, etc. I knew an ex-cop back in college, and he'd tell he'd prefer to just sit in his car and read the magazine. He didn't like arresting people for stupid things, but sometimes he had no other choice.

One example: he gets a noise complaint, so he goes to the house, and tells them to turn it down. Twenty minutes later, he gets another noise complaint, so he goes back to the house, tells them to turn it down, as he doesn't want to have to come back. Third time, it's easier for him to just arrest people and break up the party rather than keep coming back every half hour.

Another example, he gave a guy a speeding ticket and asked him to sign the ticket. Guy was being an asshole and refused to sign the ticket. The cop pleaded with the guy for about an hour, even got his supervisor on the phone, trying to convinve the guy to just fucking sign the ticket. Finally, he said, "Fuck it, you're going to jail." Only then did the guy say, okay, he'll sign the ticket, but by then it was too late ... he was going to jail.

Granted, I've met my share of asshole cops, but I've also met really cool ones. A friend of mine flipped a car into a ditch right in front of his house (and in front of a cop) while extremely intoxicated. (That kind of accident, it's SOP to test for DUI). Cop had him simply make a statement and then released him to go in the house without doing anything .... very lucky. Same cop came out when we were shooting off a potato gun, and just wanted to see it go off. He said along the lines of "Boys will be boys." but also, that some cops, would arrest you for possession of an explosive device. We weren't doing anything dangerous with it, just shotting it off in an open field.

Anyways, there's cops on both sides of the spectrum.

This ad space for sale.

[AMax 0]

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Maybe that works up in New York, but here in Texas we tend to treat each other with respect.

Agree
During three years in Texas (before I started to jump) I was pulled over 13 times and got 7 traffic tickets (most of them for speeding) All 13 cops were absolutely respectful.

[gmanpilot 0]

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Write me a ticket, if you must, for failing to signal my lane change, but, no, you can't search my car without a warrant.

Unless things have changed, he can search within the passenger's arms reach no matter what. To search the remainder of the car requires he is able to articulate probable cause that there is contraband or evidence of a crime existing. It's one of the exceptions to the 4th Amendment requirement of obtaining a search warrant before he can search your private property, and it is not an infringement on your civil liberties. Google Carroll Doctrine.

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I guess the eye-opener occurred ten years ago when a woman who lives near my home was arrested for spanking her kid in a supermarket. Any cop who ever interferes with my family in this manner would be wise to expect a bullet. This is not a rock-solid guarantee, but the chances of it happening are far greater than I ever thought possible.

Well, that would make you a murderer or a dead guy. I don't know if there is an objective definition of "spanking", but if I were to come across a parent "spanking" a child with anything other than an open hand or from the neck down, I would stop it too, and I don't need no stinking baydges for that.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[diablopilot 2]

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", but if I were to come across a parent "spanking" a child with anything other than an open hand or from the neck down, I would stop it too, and I don't need no stinking baydges for that.

Why do you feel the need to involve yourself in someone elses business?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Airman1270 0]

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Write me a ticket, if you must, for failing to signal my lane change, but, no, you can't search my car without a warrant.

Unless things have changed, he can search within the passenger's arms reach no matter what...
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Without probable cause, you cannot search anywhere, arm's reach or not. Why would you search without probable cause? Just write the ticket, or give the warning, and be on your way. (Obviously, if you have probable cause, you can search. Hint: Probable cause requires more than a "Greatful Dead" bumper sticker.)

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I guess the eye-opener occurred ten years ago when a woman who lives near my home was arrested for spanking her kid in a supermarket. Any cop who ever interferes with my family in this manner would be wise to expect a bullet. This is not a rock-solid guarantee, but the chances of it happening are far greater than I ever thought possible.

Well, that would make you a murderer or a dead guy. I don't know if there is an objective definition of "spanking", but if I were to come across a parent "spanking" a child with anything other than an open hand or from the neck down, I would stop it too, and I don't need no stinking baydges for that.

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It was an open hand. And, by the way, you fell into my trap. The issue is not what I would do if provoked, the issue is: Why would I be provoked? If confronted with this situation, you will (if you're a decent guy) apologize to the woman and pehaps press charges against whoever called 911 for false report of a crime. If you have a shred of human decency, you will NOT arrest the Mom. Period.

Thanks,
Jon

[Guest]

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I'd like to see the police leadership start making noise about this and pressure the legislatures to address the situation, perhaps as part of the process toward legal reform.

Ever notice how every investigation into the erosion of freedom always seems to arrive at the role played by the litigation lobby?

Jon

Chiefs of Police are usually political appointees, and thus have their petty masters to keep happy. Rank & file cops I've spoken with often have a completely different viewpoint than their leadership.

Sheriff is typically a public office, in that the holder must campaign and be elected.

It is an imperfect world, but given a choice, I'll take the instincts of a streetwise badge over those of the petty bureaucrats in City Hall.

mh

.

[dorbie 0]

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If the people could be trusted to act responsibly the police wouldn't ..........
Jim

........be required?

[kinney29 0]

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. Same cop came out when we were shooting off a potato gun, and just wanted to see it go off. He said along the lines of "Boys will be boys." but also, that some cops, would arrest you for possession of an explosive device.

HA Ha

Just reminded me of a time last year, me and a friend left work early and went to his father-in-laws to shoot skeet. It was in a big field, completly legal, but a cop showed up gun drawn ready to shoot us after he got a call of shots fired from a neighbor. Funniest thing I ever saw. I though the guy was gonna mess his pants, actually he probably already had. It was he-larious.

[Kennedy 0]

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Write me a ticket, if you must, for failing to signal my lane change, but, no, you can't search my car without a warrant.

Unless things have changed, he can search within the passenger's arms reach no matter what...

Without probable cause, you cannot search anywhere, arm's reach or not. Why would you search without probable cause? Just write the ticket, or give the warning, and be on your way. (Obviously, if you have probable cause, you can search. Hint: Probable cause requires more than a "Greatful Dead" bumper sticker.)

I hate it when people who don't know the law argue about it.

You are both wrong.

There are about a thousand exceptions and exclusions to the probable cause or warrant requirement for a search. Open field. Abandoned property. Hot pursuit. The list goes on.

However, a cop cannot search a vehicle just because he is ticketing the driver. The exception you each confused is called the search incident to arrest. If someone is arrested, an officer can search anything in the immediate vicinity.

There is also the Terry stop. I won't even go into that with you two, because it's way over your heads.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[SkyDekker 1,123]

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There is also the Terry stop. I won't even go into that with you two, because it's way over your heads.

Ahhh yes, well thankfully cops are all really smart.....

[miked10270 0]

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Ahhh yes, well thankfully cops are all really smart.

..... And the nomination for Most (or Sole) intelligent Comment in Speakers Corner goes to...




Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.