Cajun 0 #251 September 16, 2004 Quote"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin That's funny I say the same thing about pot Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #252 September 16, 2004 Quote...It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Although I no longer follow Christianity, I would have to disagree on the tales being mere folk stories. Many of the stories and people in there have been proven to be true. It's just a history book with a mystical twist. I do agree with the selection of stories made by man though. Rather odd that a religion of "love", but mostly fear, puts so much stock into the power of man of his wife. Sounds like a bunch of bs to me. And no, I'm not a woman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #253 September 16, 2004 QuoteQuote...It is a compilation of folk stories chosen by a group of men a long time ago. Although I no longer follow Christianity, I would have to disagree on the tales being mere folk stories. Many of the stories and people in there have been proven to be true. It's just a history book with a mystical twist. uh... no they havent... got some evidence to back that assertion??? perhaps you should look into the definitons of 'proven' and 'true' what you have are a collection of myths loosely based in some semi-historical events...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #254 September 17, 2004 I was under the impression that many of the people and events did exist/occur, but some of the circumstances surrounding them were a bit off. Maybe I've just been reading bad information all these years... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SarahC07 0 #255 September 17, 2004 "Show me tangible evidence that love exists?" (can you?) I've heard that argument used in the defense of God existing.. many times. I however do not know 100% what I believe... I'd like to believe that God is who I make him to be. But I like to call him Joe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #256 September 17, 2004 QuoteQuote"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin That's funny I say the same thing about pot God forgot to make sure humans understood that all of god's creations are supposed to be divine. Forgot to tell people that they're supposed to leave other people alone in their freedom to choose their own lives. God made such a big show of giving us "free will" but forgot to make us able to allow others to exercise theirs. Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #257 September 17, 2004 QuoteIn fact, not one atom of your then body is part of you now That is utterly false. We have cells in us that were with us when we were born. Are we to believe that the atoms swapped out, but left the cells exactly as they were? Think about nerve cells and brain cells, which are said to not regenerate... QuoteYour immature mind was incapable of complex thought, and your personality has likely changed considerably. Nevertheless your sense of I-ness is the same, and when you draw your last breath it will still be "you" who does it. This continuity of awareness is who you are--the one who experiences the sensations presented to it by the senses, the one who experiences the endless swarm of thoughts that are generated by the mind, the conscious entity that lives inside the body. This is the one unchanging thing about us. By isolating our "selves" (by simply noticing it when the mind is quiet) we notice that "we" are unlimited in time and space. This is a very simple experience, nothing flashy or sensational about it. Perhaps it is the "peace that passeth all understanding." Perhaps God really does dwell within, or, as Jesus is supposed to have said, "the kingdom of heaven lies within." When a person discovers that, there is no more need for "proofs," nor will one need religion or any external God. Here is a link to the story of Phineas Gage, whose "self" or "I-ness" was totally changed by a traumatic brain injury. It calls into question the validity of the claim that our souls make up who we are, and that our sense of self identity is unchanging. Also, think about Alzheimer's Disease victims, who come to not recognize spouses with whom they've lived for 50, 60 years! People who don't know who they are, where they are, where they come from... When the brain degenerates, so it seems does the "self." I'd love to believe there's an immortal, invulnerable soul that exists independent of the body, but I see so much more evidence for that not being the case. Here's the link: The true story of Phineas Gage Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #258 September 17, 2004 Interesting point. Anything written by Oliver Sachs is along the same lines. But how do you know the soul has changed or if the outward manifestation of consciousness had changed? A few years ago I had a head injury, knocked out, woke up not knowing a damn thing about myself or where I was (sure explains a lot, eh?). I was the same person, same personality in my head, I just couldn't get it out right. I felt like my brain was disconnected from the rest of me by a fog that just fucked eveything up. I acted weird, not because I wanted to, but because I just physically couldn't make the mind and the rest of me work together. How do we know that alzheimer's etc. isn't the same thing? I've seen stroke patients who have no capacity to speak or make sense verbally or with writing. But they understand every word you say, just can't respond. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #259 September 17, 2004 QuoteParaphrased summary of “A Brief History of Time” by Stephen Hawking: - Laplace’s theory of scientific determinism suggests that there is one set of laws which explain the development of the universe, given its configuration at one time. This was incomplete in that it didn’t say how the laws should be chosen and didn’t specify the initial configuration of the universe. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - The uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics implies that certain pairs of quantities (i.e. position and velocity of a particle) cannot both be predicted with complete accuracy. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - Therefore, we have redefined the task of science to be the discovery of laws that will enable us to predict events up to the limits set by the uncertainty principle. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - Stephen Hawking discussed the origin of the universe primarily with respect to the laws that govern gravity because it is gravity that shapes the large scale structure of the universe. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - The fact that gravity is always attractive implies that the universe must be either expanding or contracting. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - The general theory of relativity states that there must have been a state of infinite density in the past, “The Big Bang” (i.e. the beginning of time). Also, there must be a state of infinite density in the future Stephen Hawking calls “The Big Crunch” (i.e. the end of time). Even if “The Big Crunch” doesn’t happen, there are singularities called black holes. They would represent the “end of time” for anything that fell into one. The laws of physics would all break down in this instance. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - God would have complete freedom to choose what happened and how the universe began. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - If quantum mechanics and general relativity are combined, however, a new theory suggests that space and time might form a finite, four-dimensional space without singularities or boundaries. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - But if the universe is completely self-contained, with no singularities or boundaries, and completely described by a unified theory, that has profound implications for the role of God as Creator. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - However, there may have been only one, or a small number, of complete unified theories, such as the heterotic string theory, that are self-consistent and allow the existence of complicated structures such as human beings who can investigate the universe and ask about the nature of God. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - Even if this is true, however, it is just a set of laws and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? “The usual - approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe.” ______________________________________________________________________________________ - Up until now, most scientists have been too occupied with the development of new theories that describe “what” the universe is to ask the question “why.” On the other hand, philosophers have not been able to keep up with the advance of scientific theories. ______________________________________________________________________________________ - Why is it that we and the universe exist? “If we find the answer to that, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we would know the mind of God. This is primarily for those of you out there who proclaim to be Atheists (i.e. deny the existence of any God outright). It seems to me that even some of the greatest minds in ancient and recent history couldn’t get around the possibility of there being a universal creator or God. It seem that with all of this scientific theory above (none of which I’d ever claim to be able to explain in detail) even thinkers of this caliber do not totally discount the possibility of his existence and his role in the creation and control of the universe. It seems that, even if Hawking didn’t buy the concept completely, he didn’t discount it as a possibility either. This makes me wonder why most of you don’t at least consider yourselves Agnostic rather than Atheist in light of this reason. That is, unless you consider yourselves to be brighter than someone like Stephen Hawking and have insight that he might not have. Just curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #260 September 17, 2004 QuoteThis is primarily for those of you out there who proclaim to be Atheists (i.e. deny the existence of any God outright). It seems to me that even some of the greatest minds in ancient and recent history couldn’t get around the possibility of there being a universal creator or God. It seem that with all of this scientific theory above (none of which I’d ever claim to be able to explain in detail) even thinkers of this caliber do not totally discount the possibility of his existence and his role in the creation and control of the universe. It seems that, even if Hawking didn’t buy the concept completely, he didn’t discount it as a possibility either. This makes me wonder why most of you don’t at least consider yourselves Agnostic rather than Atheist in light of this reason. That is, unless you consider yourselves to be brighter than someone like Stephen Hawking and have insight that he might not have. Of course I'm smarter than SH, I'm a woman :-) Actually, I have read a lot of his writings and love astrophysics. It makes my brain hurt and I enjoy a challenge. Anyway, a lot of us acknowledge that God is a possibility (except PJ). Personally I am agnostic leaning toward some form of God. I just think that Christianity and other forms of religion have taken the whole concept of a deity and warped it into something that suits themselves and controls the masses that follow them. My concept of God is more of Goddess, or mother nature, or that which binds all things together. I don't even know if it is a true consciousness or not, more like the glue of matter/energy, that basic essence that ties all things as one. Like String Theory. Just my humble interpretation of things. Poke holes in my perception all you wish, I'm okay with that. Been known to be wrong before. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #261 September 17, 2004 QuoteOf course I'm smarter than SH, I'm a woman :-) Well, you may have something there. I respect your opinion and that was more so directed at the pure Atheist. There are plenty more out there besides PJ who claim this disbelief. With reference to you, however, can it just stop there? With the obvious (at least to me ) complexity and apparent order to the universe, how can there not be design. With your belief that "nature" just binds us all together, doesn't that just assume that everything as it is happened just by some infinitely astronomical chance? And how logical is that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #262 September 17, 2004 I'd say that just because SH knows some stuff, doesn't mean that he knows everything. Also, intelligence is no predictor of emotional stability or any number of other factors in life. I wouldn't emulate every facet of his life, just because he shines in one area. He looks for a "reason" for the universe to be here. It doesn't have to have a reason. It has just always been here. Who knows? Maybe I'm brighter than SH in this area. If he has any questions about invisible people, I'll give him my most reasoned answers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #263 September 17, 2004 QuoteI'd say that just because SH knows some stuff, doesn't mean that he knows everything. Also, intelligence is no predictor of emotional stability or any number of other factors in life. I wouldn't emulate every facet of his life, just because he shines in one area. Are you saying that Hawking might be emotionally unstable? How about Einstein? Aristotle? Galileo? Zenister made the claim not too long ago that the writers of the New Testament might all be emotionally unstable or in fact insane. I think all Hawking was saying was that he or anyone else does not, in fact, know everything. Therefore, even in his brilliance, he cannot discount the possibility of God. My question was how can an Atheist claim emphatically that there is no possibility of God? That seems like a very narrow view. To be intellectually honest with myself, I think I’d have to opt for Agnostic over Atheist if I had to choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #264 September 17, 2004 not quite, i made the claim that a great many of the characters in the bible often exhibited behaviors and attitudes that would now be described as psychotic or pathological.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #265 September 17, 2004 QuoteMy question was how can an Atheist claim emphatically that there is no possibility of God? That seems like a very narrow view. To be intellectually honest with myself, I think I’d have to opt for Agnostic over Atheist if I had to choose. No more narrow of a view than firmly believing in the existence of God. To be intellectually honest with yourself, you have to opt for Agnostic and neither Atheist nor Believer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrunkMonkey 0 #266 September 17, 2004 Solve all your problems, on either side of this seemingly endless argument: www.deism.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #267 September 17, 2004 QuoteI respect your opinion and that was more so directed at the pure Atheist. There are plenty more out there besides PJ who claim this disbelief. With reference to you, however, can it just stop there? With the obvious (at least to me ) complexity and apparent order to the universe, how can there not be design. With your belief that "nature" just binds us all together, doesn't that just assume that everything as it is happened just by some infinitely astronomical chance? And how logical is that? Does this mean I'm an impure athiest?? I guess I didn't explain myself well. I see mother nature or whatever as the god figure, the energy or spirit or whateveritis (tired, not really literate right now. I work too freaking much). I think there is a chance that yes, it is all by chance. Did that make sense? If anything was different, constants, energy, mass, laws of physics, even a little bit, nothing would exist. So for all we know, all this happened a majillion times before and just hit it right this time. After all, if you draw lottery numbers enough times, sooner or later you will get all possible results. Same with big bang or cosmic history. I don't think that there necessarily needs to be a creating hand behind it. I think there could be, but doesn't need to be. I also think that firm athiests who don't entertain any other conceptions are just as obnoxious as the Christian (other other brand of religion) zealot who refuses to accept that anyone else may actually have a valid point. Both extremes drive me batty with the rigidness and lack of honest questioning that occurs. Though I fail a lot, I really do try to be open minded. Oooh, just found out there's a tornado warning in Chambersburg. Hope my office and dropzone stay in one piece. I just found a rig that I might buy, don't want it blown away!!! Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #268 September 18, 2004 QuoteQuotePerhaps God really does dwell within, or, as Jesus is supposed to have said, "the kingdom of heaven lies within." When a person discovers that, there is no more need for "proofs," nor will one need religion or any external God. Interesting quote. This I can wholeheartedly agree with. Wrapped in my husbands arms, both of us silent and still, absorbing the beauty of nature around us, feeling the sun on our faces or snow beneath our feet, that is when we are at total peace with ourselves and the world. Nothing goes through our minds but admiration of the beauty around us and not minds cluttered with everything else. If that is God, then yes, I believe in that. To me, at least, it is truly heaven and I could live all eternity that way. Togas and wings aren't my thing and halos would take way too much work to keep polished. Give me good earthy mud any day. People are always offering the schmaltzy greeting-card pap for "what is God to you?" -- "the laughter of a child, the breeze in the mountains beside the fresh stream, the flowers on the meadows... blah blah blah." But nobody means this when they are asking about the existence of God. This kind of stuff, quaint though it may be, is not what is meant when people ask, "Do you think God exists?" They are asking about the DUDE who sits and arranges the whole of creation, who made the world and the stars and all that stuff, and set up this soap-opera-esque drama that they put into the bible. Please let's not muddy the waters with talk of "singing laughing children and little lambs and kittens" as proof of "God," unless you are willing to say that lambs and kittens and children and hummingbirds and flowers all got together to build Creation. Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #269 September 18, 2004 QuoteThis is primarily for those of you out there who proclaim to be Atheists (i.e. deny the existence of any God outright). It seems to me that even some of the greatest minds in ancient and recent history couldn’t get around the possibility of there being a universal creator or God. It seem that with all of this scientific theory above (none of which I’d ever claim to be able to explain in detail) even thinkers of this caliber do not totally discount the possibility of his existence and his role in the creation and control of the universe. I don't know if maybe I've overstated my position before, but let me clarify: I don't utterly discount as impossible the existence of God. I just don't believe it is true. I find it unlikely enough, though possible, that I think it's not to be believed in. I think it was pretty sly of you to use Stephen Hawking's brilliance as a springboard to a defense of the existence of God: you say he "doesn't discount the possibility" -- you don't say he believes, and you don't say he thinks it's likely. A one in two thousand billion chance is still a "possibility." I guess that before we sent explorers there, some brilliant minds may have acknowledged the possibility that the moon was made of green cheese. Remote possibility, but possibility nonetheless. Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #270 September 18, 2004 Quote But nobody means this when they are asking about the existence of God. This kind of stuff, quaint though it may be, is not what is meant when people ask, "Do you think God exists?" They are asking about the DUDE who sits and arranges the whole of creation, who made the world and the stars and all that stuff, and set up this soap-opera-esque drama that they put into the bible. Please let's not muddy the waters with talk of "singing laughing children and little lambs and kittens" as proof of "God," unless you are willing to say that lambs and kittens and children and hummingbirds and flowers all got together to build Creation. not hardly. In this instance you are far to tied to the 'charlton heston' personification vision of God the Christians accept.... there are certainly a great many more concepts of God than this and a great many people who believe them. Dont pigeon hole anyones belief or the nature of the question they might be asking you by defining it in such narrow concepts, that is part of the problem many people have with 'God' in the first place.. they cant accept one idea (the one forced apon them by the institutions they were raised in) and havent yet broken themselves out of that narrow concept to explore any other....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #271 September 18, 2004 QuoteThey are asking about the DUDE who sits and arranges the whole of creation, who made the world and the stars and all that stuff, and set up this soap-opera-esque drama that they put into the bible. Please let's not muddy the waters with talk of "singing laughing children and little lambs and kittens" as proof of "God," unless you are willing to say that lambs and kittens and children and hummingbirds and flowers all got together to build Creation. Why does God have to be the booming voiced entity that is often taught by Christianity? Since no one knows for certain if a God exists, much less what he/she is like, why can't people have a differing concept of Godness than you do? There is always more than one way to look at something. I made no attempt to 'prove' that God exists, I only explained what my concept of God would be if indeed a God existed (still not entirely sure on that one). As you are probably more 'peaceful' in real life than you sometimes you come across on here, I'm probably more cynical than I often sound like in my words. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #272 September 20, 2004 If the existence of God could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then what good is faith ? There may or may not be things that point to God's existence, but the decision to believe in God is a matter of free choice, faith, and belief. Believing in God isn't as simple as believing in the law of gravity. We believe in the law of gravity because we wear parachutes and because some of us have seen what happens when things go wrong, so we have no reasonable doubts about that. God is not someone or something we can even understand. The Bible, or any other scripture are attempts to explain the unexplainable nature of God in terms we can understand in our limited existence. I think the evidence of all things great and small, and the orderly way they fit together points to a God. But I can't prove it. So I choose to believe. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites InflightSupv 0 #273 September 20, 2004 So funny. I was just reading a book by Dick Marcinko, the ex-Navy Seal and this is what he said. "My friends, there is a God. And so far as I am concerned , He is the God of War. He is the fearsome, Unnamable Name of the Old Testament, who wreaks vengeance on profaners and sinners and his enemies and slays them all--every single f**king one. That's my kind of God." To each their own, I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites captain1 0 #274 September 21, 2004 What is your argument Scottbre? I think you are a religious man and that is why you posted this topic. Of course, I have not read the so many other responses. I am too lazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peacefuljeffrey 0 #275 September 21, 2004 Quotenot hardly. In this instance you are far to tied to the 'charlton heston' personification vision of God the Christians accept.... there are certainly a great many more concepts of God than this and a great many people who believe them. Dont pigeon hole anyones belief or the nature of the question they might be asking you by defining it in such narrow concepts, that is part of the problem many people have with 'God' in the first place.. they cant accept one idea (the one forced apon them by the institutions they were raised in) and havent yet broken themselves out of that narrow concept to explore any other.... Well, I'm asking you, if you think "God" is kittens and lambs and birds and streams and flowers and mountains and smiles and children's laughter, then how did THOSE things make creation? And by the way, President Heston did not play God, he played Moses. Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Next Page 11 of 26 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
peregrinerose 0 #260 September 17, 2004 QuoteThis is primarily for those of you out there who proclaim to be Atheists (i.e. deny the existence of any God outright). It seems to me that even some of the greatest minds in ancient and recent history couldn’t get around the possibility of there being a universal creator or God. It seem that with all of this scientific theory above (none of which I’d ever claim to be able to explain in detail) even thinkers of this caliber do not totally discount the possibility of his existence and his role in the creation and control of the universe. It seems that, even if Hawking didn’t buy the concept completely, he didn’t discount it as a possibility either. This makes me wonder why most of you don’t at least consider yourselves Agnostic rather than Atheist in light of this reason. That is, unless you consider yourselves to be brighter than someone like Stephen Hawking and have insight that he might not have. Of course I'm smarter than SH, I'm a woman :-) Actually, I have read a lot of his writings and love astrophysics. It makes my brain hurt and I enjoy a challenge. Anyway, a lot of us acknowledge that God is a possibility (except PJ). Personally I am agnostic leaning toward some form of God. I just think that Christianity and other forms of religion have taken the whole concept of a deity and warped it into something that suits themselves and controls the masses that follow them. My concept of God is more of Goddess, or mother nature, or that which binds all things together. I don't even know if it is a true consciousness or not, more like the glue of matter/energy, that basic essence that ties all things as one. Like String Theory. Just my humble interpretation of things. Poke holes in my perception all you wish, I'm okay with that. Been known to be wrong before. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #261 September 17, 2004 QuoteOf course I'm smarter than SH, I'm a woman :-) Well, you may have something there. I respect your opinion and that was more so directed at the pure Atheist. There are plenty more out there besides PJ who claim this disbelief. With reference to you, however, can it just stop there? With the obvious (at least to me ) complexity and apparent order to the universe, how can there not be design. With your belief that "nature" just binds us all together, doesn't that just assume that everything as it is happened just by some infinitely astronomical chance? And how logical is that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #262 September 17, 2004 I'd say that just because SH knows some stuff, doesn't mean that he knows everything. Also, intelligence is no predictor of emotional stability or any number of other factors in life. I wouldn't emulate every facet of his life, just because he shines in one area. He looks for a "reason" for the universe to be here. It doesn't have to have a reason. It has just always been here. Who knows? Maybe I'm brighter than SH in this area. If he has any questions about invisible people, I'll give him my most reasoned answers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #263 September 17, 2004 QuoteI'd say that just because SH knows some stuff, doesn't mean that he knows everything. Also, intelligence is no predictor of emotional stability or any number of other factors in life. I wouldn't emulate every facet of his life, just because he shines in one area. Are you saying that Hawking might be emotionally unstable? How about Einstein? Aristotle? Galileo? Zenister made the claim not too long ago that the writers of the New Testament might all be emotionally unstable or in fact insane. I think all Hawking was saying was that he or anyone else does not, in fact, know everything. Therefore, even in his brilliance, he cannot discount the possibility of God. My question was how can an Atheist claim emphatically that there is no possibility of God? That seems like a very narrow view. To be intellectually honest with myself, I think I’d have to opt for Agnostic over Atheist if I had to choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #264 September 17, 2004 not quite, i made the claim that a great many of the characters in the bible often exhibited behaviors and attitudes that would now be described as psychotic or pathological.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #265 September 17, 2004 QuoteMy question was how can an Atheist claim emphatically that there is no possibility of God? That seems like a very narrow view. To be intellectually honest with myself, I think I’d have to opt for Agnostic over Atheist if I had to choose. No more narrow of a view than firmly believing in the existence of God. To be intellectually honest with yourself, you have to opt for Agnostic and neither Atheist nor Believer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrunkMonkey 0 #266 September 17, 2004 Solve all your problems, on either side of this seemingly endless argument: www.deism.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #267 September 17, 2004 QuoteI respect your opinion and that was more so directed at the pure Atheist. There are plenty more out there besides PJ who claim this disbelief. With reference to you, however, can it just stop there? With the obvious (at least to me ) complexity and apparent order to the universe, how can there not be design. With your belief that "nature" just binds us all together, doesn't that just assume that everything as it is happened just by some infinitely astronomical chance? And how logical is that? Does this mean I'm an impure athiest?? I guess I didn't explain myself well. I see mother nature or whatever as the god figure, the energy or spirit or whateveritis (tired, not really literate right now. I work too freaking much). I think there is a chance that yes, it is all by chance. Did that make sense? If anything was different, constants, energy, mass, laws of physics, even a little bit, nothing would exist. So for all we know, all this happened a majillion times before and just hit it right this time. After all, if you draw lottery numbers enough times, sooner or later you will get all possible results. Same with big bang or cosmic history. I don't think that there necessarily needs to be a creating hand behind it. I think there could be, but doesn't need to be. I also think that firm athiests who don't entertain any other conceptions are just as obnoxious as the Christian (other other brand of religion) zealot who refuses to accept that anyone else may actually have a valid point. Both extremes drive me batty with the rigidness and lack of honest questioning that occurs. Though I fail a lot, I really do try to be open minded. Oooh, just found out there's a tornado warning in Chambersburg. Hope my office and dropzone stay in one piece. I just found a rig that I might buy, don't want it blown away!!! Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #268 September 18, 2004 QuoteQuotePerhaps God really does dwell within, or, as Jesus is supposed to have said, "the kingdom of heaven lies within." When a person discovers that, there is no more need for "proofs," nor will one need religion or any external God. Interesting quote. This I can wholeheartedly agree with. Wrapped in my husbands arms, both of us silent and still, absorbing the beauty of nature around us, feeling the sun on our faces or snow beneath our feet, that is when we are at total peace with ourselves and the world. Nothing goes through our minds but admiration of the beauty around us and not minds cluttered with everything else. If that is God, then yes, I believe in that. To me, at least, it is truly heaven and I could live all eternity that way. Togas and wings aren't my thing and halos would take way too much work to keep polished. Give me good earthy mud any day. People are always offering the schmaltzy greeting-card pap for "what is God to you?" -- "the laughter of a child, the breeze in the mountains beside the fresh stream, the flowers on the meadows... blah blah blah." But nobody means this when they are asking about the existence of God. This kind of stuff, quaint though it may be, is not what is meant when people ask, "Do you think God exists?" They are asking about the DUDE who sits and arranges the whole of creation, who made the world and the stars and all that stuff, and set up this soap-opera-esque drama that they put into the bible. Please let's not muddy the waters with talk of "singing laughing children and little lambs and kittens" as proof of "God," unless you are willing to say that lambs and kittens and children and hummingbirds and flowers all got together to build Creation. Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #269 September 18, 2004 QuoteThis is primarily for those of you out there who proclaim to be Atheists (i.e. deny the existence of any God outright). It seems to me that even some of the greatest minds in ancient and recent history couldn’t get around the possibility of there being a universal creator or God. It seem that with all of this scientific theory above (none of which I’d ever claim to be able to explain in detail) even thinkers of this caliber do not totally discount the possibility of his existence and his role in the creation and control of the universe. I don't know if maybe I've overstated my position before, but let me clarify: I don't utterly discount as impossible the existence of God. I just don't believe it is true. I find it unlikely enough, though possible, that I think it's not to be believed in. I think it was pretty sly of you to use Stephen Hawking's brilliance as a springboard to a defense of the existence of God: you say he "doesn't discount the possibility" -- you don't say he believes, and you don't say he thinks it's likely. A one in two thousand billion chance is still a "possibility." I guess that before we sent explorers there, some brilliant minds may have acknowledged the possibility that the moon was made of green cheese. Remote possibility, but possibility nonetheless. Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #270 September 18, 2004 Quote But nobody means this when they are asking about the existence of God. This kind of stuff, quaint though it may be, is not what is meant when people ask, "Do you think God exists?" They are asking about the DUDE who sits and arranges the whole of creation, who made the world and the stars and all that stuff, and set up this soap-opera-esque drama that they put into the bible. Please let's not muddy the waters with talk of "singing laughing children and little lambs and kittens" as proof of "God," unless you are willing to say that lambs and kittens and children and hummingbirds and flowers all got together to build Creation. not hardly. In this instance you are far to tied to the 'charlton heston' personification vision of God the Christians accept.... there are certainly a great many more concepts of God than this and a great many people who believe them. Dont pigeon hole anyones belief or the nature of the question they might be asking you by defining it in such narrow concepts, that is part of the problem many people have with 'God' in the first place.. they cant accept one idea (the one forced apon them by the institutions they were raised in) and havent yet broken themselves out of that narrow concept to explore any other....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #271 September 18, 2004 QuoteThey are asking about the DUDE who sits and arranges the whole of creation, who made the world and the stars and all that stuff, and set up this soap-opera-esque drama that they put into the bible. Please let's not muddy the waters with talk of "singing laughing children and little lambs and kittens" as proof of "God," unless you are willing to say that lambs and kittens and children and hummingbirds and flowers all got together to build Creation. Why does God have to be the booming voiced entity that is often taught by Christianity? Since no one knows for certain if a God exists, much less what he/she is like, why can't people have a differing concept of Godness than you do? There is always more than one way to look at something. I made no attempt to 'prove' that God exists, I only explained what my concept of God would be if indeed a God existed (still not entirely sure on that one). As you are probably more 'peaceful' in real life than you sometimes you come across on here, I'm probably more cynical than I often sound like in my words. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #272 September 20, 2004 If the existence of God could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then what good is faith ? There may or may not be things that point to God's existence, but the decision to believe in God is a matter of free choice, faith, and belief. Believing in God isn't as simple as believing in the law of gravity. We believe in the law of gravity because we wear parachutes and because some of us have seen what happens when things go wrong, so we have no reasonable doubts about that. God is not someone or something we can even understand. The Bible, or any other scripture are attempts to explain the unexplainable nature of God in terms we can understand in our limited existence. I think the evidence of all things great and small, and the orderly way they fit together points to a God. But I can't prove it. So I choose to believe. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InflightSupv 0 #273 September 20, 2004 So funny. I was just reading a book by Dick Marcinko, the ex-Navy Seal and this is what he said. "My friends, there is a God. And so far as I am concerned , He is the God of War. He is the fearsome, Unnamable Name of the Old Testament, who wreaks vengeance on profaners and sinners and his enemies and slays them all--every single f**king one. That's my kind of God." To each their own, I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
captain1 0 #274 September 21, 2004 What is your argument Scottbre? I think you are a religious man and that is why you posted this topic. Of course, I have not read the so many other responses. I am too lazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #275 September 21, 2004 Quotenot hardly. In this instance you are far to tied to the 'charlton heston' personification vision of God the Christians accept.... there are certainly a great many more concepts of God than this and a great many people who believe them. Dont pigeon hole anyones belief or the nature of the question they might be asking you by defining it in such narrow concepts, that is part of the problem many people have with 'God' in the first place.. they cant accept one idea (the one forced apon them by the institutions they were raised in) and havent yet broken themselves out of that narrow concept to explore any other.... Well, I'm asking you, if you think "God" is kittens and lambs and birds and streams and flowers and mountains and smiles and children's laughter, then how did THOSE things make creation? And by the way, President Heston did not play God, he played Moses. Blue skies, -Jeffrey --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
