Pilotchute in tow and body position for reserve deployment?

[dgw 8]

A conversation in another thread talked about body position when deploying a reserve after a cutaway.

The consensus view appeared (to me) to be that a head high position was optimum, and a (slightly) head low position second place. A flat position was 'worst' because the potential for the reserve pilotchute to become 'trapped' in the burble was highest in this position, with the other two positions offering a better opportunity for the pilotchute to clear the burble.

In the event a skydiver experiences a main pilotchute-in-tow malfunction, the skydiver has two generally accepted courses of action open:

1/ cutaway and deploy reserve
2/deploy reserve

In case (1), there is no issue for the purposes of this query.

In case (2), the separation distance between the main pilotchute-in-tow and the reserve is maximum when the skydiver is 'flat', and the bridles/pilotchutes get closer when the skydiver is either head high or low.

Finally, the question: In this circumstance (case 2), is there a consensus view regarding the best deployment position?

If one is flat, there is (I believe) a potential to 'burble' the reserve pilotchute, and, therefore, an increased chance of the reserve bridle/pilotchute entangling the main pilotchute/bridle.

If one is head high/low, the reserve pilotchute/bridle have less chance of 'burbling', but are closer to the main bridle/pilotchute, which increases the chance of fouling.

Any thoughts on the best procedure in 'case 2'?

My thoughts have, previously, been that in the event of a pilotchute-in-tow, I would 'simply' deploy the reserve - afterall, why 'waste' a canopy? That would be silly. Now, I'm leaning toward a cutaway first.

I'm not proposing another debate regarding the 'best' EPs, rather a discussion on the factors involved in 'case 2'.

Thanks.

(Edited for 'clarity')

[davelepka 4]

How about this, just pull the sliver handle ASAP, and save your life. In a high speed mal like this, don't fuck around, just pull the handle.

A PC hesitation is a minor problem at best, they usually clear themselves. If not, you'll most likey want to see why nothing is happening back there, and when you look over your shoulder, bingo, you just cleared it.

There are times where skydiving is technical and percise. Then there are high speed mals, where pulling your handles is always job one. Simple as that.

[AFFI 0]

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How about this, just pull the sliver handle ASAP, and save your life. In a high speed mal like this, don't fuck around, just pull the handle.

A PC hesitation is a minor problem at best, they usually clear themselves. If not, you'll most likey want to see why nothing is happening back there, and when you look over your shoulder, bingo, you just cleared it.

There are times where skydiving is technical and percise. Then there are high speed mals, where pulling your handles is always job one. Simple as that.

Yup...

[davelepka 4]

Oh yeah, how much control over your body position do you think you're going to have when you have to pull a chest mounted ripcord with your left hand? When was the last time you did that?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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In the event a skydiver experiences a main pilotchute-in-tow malfunction, the skydiver has two generally accepted courses of action open:

1/ cutaway and deploy reserve
2/deploy reserve

In case (1), there is no issue for the purposes of this query.

Sounds like you think pulling the cutaway handle makes the pilotchute-in-tow go away. That is totally incorrect. It will still be back there. If that is what you were thinking, please get with an instructor and review your equipment's owner's manual together. Discuss how your rig works and the appropriate emergency procedures for various problems that may occur. You do not have the knowledge required to formulate your own EP's yet.

When the hand deploy pilot chutes first came out, the published EP for pc-in-tow was to lay flat and pull the reserve. Debates have brought forth different viewpoints since then, but I still think it's a valid course of action.

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

Why do you say there is no issues in case 1?(cutaway and deploy your reserve) You have the same risk of entanglement with your main PC /bridle in either senario. If you cutaway in a PC in tow your PC / bridle will be in exact place the were before you cutaway, they will not jettison from your container. Do you not understand how your gear works or am I misunderstanding you. I get the impression that you don't understand what the reasons for the debate between cutting away and just pulling the reserve during a PC in tow. The reason for the debate is mainly that a cutaway can waste valuable altitude(time) and the risk of an entanglement with the main IF the main deploys. Please talk to your instuctors about the PC in tow and all the factors and options involved. I'm not suggesting you change your EPs just hoping you that you have a good understanding of how the gear works and WHY you might choose one EP option over the other.

[davelepka 4]

Let me make one other point. A PC in tow sucks ass, and yes, you may have en entanglement with the main PC, or if the PC in tow clears as the reserve deploys, your main could deploy as well, and now you have a two out.

You can avoid all this by paying attention to your gear. Proper maintneence, and gear checks are essential. As a newer jumper you may be renting gear, or using a packer. In either case, do a comeplete and extensive gear check before puttiing on a rig you didn't pack. Make sure you know the correct closing sequence and bridle routing for every rig you jump so you can accurately check those items.

[dgw 8]

Yikes!

Thanks for the replies.

Re Davelepka:

******
'How about this, just pull the sliver handle ASAP, and save your life. In a high speed mal like this, don't fuck around, just pull the handle.

A PC hesitation is a minor problem at best, they usually clear themselves. If not, you'll most likey want to see why nothing is happening back there, and when you look over your shoulder, bingo, you just cleared it.

There are times where skydiving is technical and percise. Then there are high speed mals, where pulling your handles is always job one. Simple as that. '

*****

Thank you. I agree that a hesitation of a pilotchute is a minor problem, if it's the main pilot chute. If it's a reserve pilotchute, dancing around a main pilotchute-in-tow, I think it's of more concern, and worthy of asking. But I agree that the plan is the plan is the plan. I've only ever jumped spring-loaded main pilotchutes, and know (now) that they are minor, but potentially deadly, inconveniences.

With regard to 'Oh yeah, how much control over your body position do you think you're going to have when you have to pull a chest mounted ripcord with your left hand? When was the last time you did that?
'
I can do it the tunnel, but that's not really relevant or realistic. If I was towing a main pilotchute, I'd like to think I could pull the reserve handle whilst stable, but, I defer to you and other old school graduates. I'm not looking to advance the sport with flash new technique.

****

Re: John Mitchell:

'Sounds like you think pulling the cutaway handle makes the pilotchute-in-tow go away. That is totally incorrect. It will still be back there. If that is what you were thinking, please get with an instructor and review your equipment's owner's manual together. Discuss how your rig works and the appropriate emergency procedures for various problems that may occur. You do not have the knowledge required to formulate your own EP's yet. '

*****

Thank you. Mea culpa. I was asking a question about body position for reserve deployment with a main-pilotchute-in-tow. In trying to 'narrow' the question, I cocked up royally. (For the record, I'm a by-the-numbers man - there are no plans afoot for 'bespoke' EPs)

*****

Re Flyingseiv02:

Thanks, I cocked up the question. I have, I think, a good understanding of the equipment, despite the apparent ineptness of the original post. Nevertheless, you and others continue to make me think.

****

All: My only 'live' experience regarding EPs was a pilotchute hesitation on a 15 second delay with a spring loaded main pilotchute. I counted to four thousand (in increments of one thousand), checked the 'absent' canopy, and I just continued the schedule (look locate ....) at which point the main deployed.

Despite the toolish nature of the original post, I do believe that a skydiver has time to adopt a body position for a reserve deployment, when a main pilotchute is in tow. If this is accepted, then I was wondering if a flat, or tilted, position is preferred, bearing in mind that there is a trailing bridle and main pilotchute?

Thanks!

[dgw 8]

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Let me make one other point. A PC in tow sucks ass, and yes, you may have en entanglement with the main PC, or if the PC in tow clears as the reserve deploys, your main could deploy as well, and now you have a two out.

You can avoid all this by paying attention to your gear. Proper maintneence, and gear checks are essential. As a newer jumper you may be renting gear, or using a packer. In either case, do a comeplete and extensive gear check before puttiing on a rig you didn't pack. Make sure you know the correct closing sequence and bridle routing for every rig you jump so you can accurately check those items.

Thank you. I always strive, within the limits of the dropzone and my brain, to have ownership of my skydive and mine and others safety. (I own a bunch of containers which I picked up specifically to learn about the gear, in detail)

[davelepka 4]

I don't think you're thinking this through. Lets say you want to dump at 3.5.

If you're smart, you begin your pull sequence closer to 4, so by the time your main PC is out, it's 3.5.

If you're like almost everyone, else, you start the pull sequence at 3.5, which has your PC coming out closer to 3.

How long do you think it will take you to realize you have a PC in tow? Four seconds? Six seconds? Lets estimate 4 or 5 seconds for you to relaize what happening, and that you need to go to the reserve.

Now lets figure three seconds to get the reserve handle and pull it. More like 7 seconds if you also pull the (useless) cutaway handle.

OK, without pulling the cutaway, if everything goes down smoothly, you're looking at 7 or 8 seconds from the main PC launch around 3, and the reserve PC launch, which by my math, puts you smoking through 2k, and thats if everything goes well.

IF you second guess the PC in tow, or are slow on the uptake, 2k turns into 1700ft. If you have a hard tiem finding or pulling the reserve ripcord, 1700ft beomes 1400ft. Remember, these are PC launch altitudes, subtract 300 feet to see when you'll have an open canopy (provided all that goes well).

Those are all low ass altitiudes to just be gettng a canopy over your head. Lets not forget the still packed main, which could deploy alongside the reserve (sometimes dumping the reserve lossens the main pack job, and can contribute to clearing a PC in tow). If I had a two out, I'd want the most altitiude possible in order to try and configure it for a safe landing, aka not a downplane.

If the main and reserve should have problems, I'd again want all sorts of altittude to work on it before impact.

See what I mean by just pull the fucking handle?

[billvon 2,400]

>Any thoughts on the best procedure in 'case 2'?

Pull the handle. You'll be somewhat unstable anyway. And pulling a reserve handle too soon rarely causes problems; pulling it late has caused a lot of deaths.

[dgw 8]

I am on board. Your point is competitively priced. Consider it sold. Thanks.

Re Billvon: likewise.

[councilman24 36]

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Thank you. I always strive, within the limits of the dropzone and my brain, to have ownership of my skydive and mine and others safety. (I own a bunch of containers which I picked up specifically to learn about the gear, in detail)

Trying learn about gear is a good thing. Trying to learn about gear from a bunch of rigs you "picked up" might not be so good. If you didn't pay more than a few HUNDRED dollars for each one I expect that they are older, perhaps incomplete, perhaps don't have all factory components, and perhaps obsolete. And even if they are brand new, examination in the absence of a knowledgable person explaining how things work and why they are what they are may lead to many misconceptions.

Sometimes I wish we didn't have the internet. It would make people talk to people in real conversations, like us old farts had to.

I've been low and fast with a pc in tow. We still don't know if the tree saved my life. PULL, you have the rest of your life to do anything else. (think about that and read it BOTH ways)

Disclaimer, there is a reasonable debate on cutawy and pull or pull. Pick one and do it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I certainly won't advise you on EP's I'm to new. And I didn't fully understand the differences you were pointing out in your 2 scenarios.I will tell you in my quest for educating myself, I have found when asking the voices of experience about whether to go straight to silver or chop and go, in such a situation, it has been the most disputed subject I've asked about.Through lots of questions and reading of past incidents,I've come up with a plan I'm comfortable with.I just wanted you to know, many people disagree about this.So learn what you can here.Talk to your instructors, and people you know and trust, and then decide what's right for you.I'm not saying what's right or wrong.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Sometimes I wish we didn't have the internet. It would make people talk to people in real conversations, like us old farts had to.

Yeah, and we had to buy the beer, too.

But we sure learned a lot. Some of it saved my ass.

• Quote

[ps5601 0]

Something else to think about. If you attempt to go head high before you deploy your reserve you run increased risk of going unstable. However you are down and dirty with a pilot chute in tow so just have to dump the reserve (now unstable). The question is, where has that towed pilot chute gone as you tumble? What has it wrapped around? Has the reserve deployment allowed the main to now deploy, except that the main pilot chute is wrapped around your leg?

If you have a pilot chute in tow just get the reserve out. You may or may not want to chop first (been debated a lot) but don't waste time you don't have trying to get into some interesting body position.

Blue skies

Paul

[sparkie 0]

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Any thoughts on the best procedure in 'case 2'?

My thoughts have, previously, been that in the event of a pilotchute-in-tow, I would 'simply' deploy the reserve - afterall, why 'waste' a canopy? That would be silly. Now, I'm leaning toward a cutaway first.

I was instructed like this:
"cutaway.....pull reserve"

Now, if I had a hard pull on the pc, and it would not come out at all and i had the "clarity of mind", í'd just pull reserve.

In the PC in tow you are stating, it would, in my opinion, be wise to cutaway first, because more exerienced jumpers and instructors pionted out to me that when you dump your reserve the tension may come off your main container a bit, enough to release the pc/pin. Then you'd have a two out.

edit: most important thing ofcourse is to get something out, cutting away first while at 500feet wont help much

[sparkie 0]

Quote

Oh yeah, how much control over your body position do you think you're going to have when you have to pull a chest mounted ripcord with your left hand? When was the last time you did that?

heh, 1st time i pracced EP with hands on both handles in FF, I went into a nice headdown

[AFFI 0]

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In the PC in tow you are stating, it would, in my opinion, be wise to cutaway first, because more exerienced jumpers and instructors pionted out to me that when you dump your reserve the tension may come off your main container a bit, enough to release the pc/pin. Then you'd have a two out.

Cutting away the PC in tow - first of all it wastes time and altitude and secondly it can create a situation where the cutaway canopy can possibly entangle with the reserve if/when it comes out.

If given the choice between 2 out and 2 entangled, I’ll take the two out (I guess that technically, 2 entangled counts as 2 out, but you get the idea).
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[JohnMitchell 14]

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heh, 1st time i pracced EP with hands on both handles in FF, I went into a nice headdown

Try this. Put your feet on your butt, arch, and then grab your handles. Does that keep you head high?

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[PWScottIV 0]

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Oh yeah, how much control over your body position do you think you're going to have when you have to pull a chest mounted ripcord with your left hand? When was the last time you did that?

I actually just dedicated a whole 13k jump to just that question. Ok, I know I'm a newbie (that's why I tried it), but I actually found it to be pretty easy to control my attitude and rotation while holding both my hands on my cutaway handle for about 10sec and then both hands my reserve for about 10sec. Back and forth a few times. I found bending my knees so my feet were at my butt did a pretty good job of keeping me level, and all I had to do was twist a bit at the waist to counter the asymmetry created by having both hands on one side...
Now, whether or not this will actually help me be more stable in a real total mal, I have no idea, because I'm probably gonna be thinking about things other than being super stable... Like FUCK! and dumping my reserve as fast as humanly possible...

Gravity Waits for No One.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...
Cutting away the PC in tow - first of all it wastes time and altitude and secondly it can create a situation where the cutaway canopy can possibly entangle with the reserve if/when it comes out...

Plus, if you cutaway and the main comes out, you have no control over it whatsoever whatever happens. No cutaway, at least you have it still within reach and could possibly deal with it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

...and back to the Head Up/Down question...

You big boys...shoot this down if necessary:

Head up will bring the main bridal right up toward the reserve cap and the reserve PC would launch right into it.

IMHO, head down would be be the better option because the spring-loaded reserve PC would shoot out at an angle away from the main PC-in-tow.

Granted, relative wind would not let it go far before it blew straight up but at least the launch would be headed in the right direction - away from the PC-in-tow.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pjc 0]

I agree, but I also see a scenario where a head down attitude would mean the deploying reserve is going right past the pc in tow and main container possible causing main deployment, whereas a head up attitude means the relative wind would take it into clear air. My opinion FWIW Cutaway (optional but thats my choice as I have something out) - Pull Reserve - Flat Attitude if time to think!

[dgw 8]

Thank you.

My limited understanding is as follows:

Dead flat = best seperation.
Head down = closer bridles.
Head up = closer bridles.

The 'problem': flat = potential reserve pilotchute in burble, leading to higher risk of entanglement with (main) pilotchute in tow.

Nevertheless, I think it's sometimes possible to overthink these things (based on the previous posts, and due consideration). I am on-board with the earlier advice in the thread.