Coworker just heard that beheading video is possibly fake?

[Skyrad 0]

When major vessels are severed the body responds by going into spasm around those vessels so there is not as much blood as would expect. As for screaming It would be possible to scream even if the head was almost severed so long as the cut was above the larynx. As for him holding still, have you ever heard of the term 'paralysed with fear?' it really can happen. Also he may have just decided to resign himself to his fate and get it over with as quickly as possible.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mailin 0]

Yes, there are more than a few inconsistencies in the video... you aren't the only one to notice.


Jen

Arianna Frances

[Ron 7]

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I am a firm believer in being as educated as possible, and examining all sides of stuff before coming to conclusions. I read stuff from all extremes - with one site being about as extreme as possible, conspiracy theory central... but it usually gives good reason to re-analyze stuff.

They have quite a few things about the Berg case on the lower part of the index page here:

http://www.infowars.com/index.html

Make your own conclusions...

Did you both to actually watch the video?

What more proof do you need:
1. He is filmed saying his name and telling about his family and then filmed getting his head cut off.

2. He is found dead...And by amazing coinecidence his head is not attached.

I think this falls into the catagory of DUH!

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mailin 0]

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think this falls into the catagoru of DUH!

Yes, that would be your very easy answer.

But it is not the only possibility. I find, and I'm not alone, that there is reasonable doubt as to aspects of the authenticity of that video. Can I prove it? No. Can you prove it? No.

I know I'm not alone in questioning it - obvioiusly.

Jen

Arianna Frances

[freeflybella 0]

I never questioned whether the video was fake or not. I have no idea.

But how can ANY of you conclusively state that it's true or fake? NONE of you were there.

I'm surprised to see such 'blind' faith in the media. Whether it's hollywood, CIA or a practical joke - something happened for some reason.

Why do "you" (the collective you) think you know what it is?

The ability to argue better or articulate your thoughts more clearly or link to better articles does not make one "know the truth'.

Discussion and banter from both sides is one thing - and helps to further thought on the subject. But for those of you so sure of your position - how can you be?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[mailin 0]

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But how can ANY of you conclusively state that it's true or fake? NONE of you were there.

I'm surprised to see such 'blind' faith in the media. Whether it's hollywood, CIA or a practical joke - something happened for some reason.

EXACTLY!!

Jennifer

Arianna Frances

[br0k3n 0]

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Did you both to actually watch the video?

What more proof do you need:
1. He is filmed saying his name and telling about his family and then filmed getting his head cut off.

2. He is found dead...And by amazing coinecidence his head is not attached.

I think this falls into the catagoru of DUH!

I have seen the tape and the time stamp reads just before beheading takes place 2:44, then as he is pushed to the floor, there is a very obvious cut and the time stamp now reads 13:46 !!!!

Clearly the tape has been edited...

Also al-Zarqawi is wearing black mask when he starts the beheading, and when the head is held up at the end he is wearing a white mask!!!!

what more proof do I want, LOTS, I think this falls into the category of suspicious....

And before you ask, my canopy is red and wing loaded 1.1 ;-)

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Ron 7]

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I have seen the tape and the time stamp reads just before beheading takes place 2:44, then as he is pushed to the floor, there is a very obvious cut and the time stamp now reads 13:46 !!!!

Clearly the tape has been edited...

Also al-Zarqawi is wearing black mask when he starts the beheading, and when the head is held up at the end he is wearing a white mask!!!!

what more proof do I want, LOTS, I think this falls into the category of suspicious....

What part of Bergs body being found with it's head cut off is not clear?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mailin 0]

Ron,

I think you may not be reading through some of these posts completely.

No one is arguing that his death happened; it’s the manner in which it happened, the details in that tape that are being questioned.

Jennifer

Arianna Frances

[br0k3n 0]

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What part of Bergs body being found with it's head cut off is not clear?

Nobody is denying that though, what is your point... so you convinced that it was al-Zarqawi?? And you don't think that any part of the video appears suspicious in anyway??

Not even, the time code, the fact that all "terrorist" appear to be Caucasian (all there hands are white), the fact the speech was read left to right, when Arabic is written right to left

And there are plenty more anomalies, personally I would like more facts before forming an opinion.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Ron 7]

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And there you have it, the Quade Test.

People, if Quade thinks that the conspiracy theory is a load of hooey, then damn, you've got nothing.

Now THATS saying something.

Quade...whats your take on the "Majic Bullet" and "Men on the moon?"

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Al Zarqawi (sp?) is Jordanian, raised in Palestine, fought in Afghanistan, and is known to have spent time in Germany, and Spain. Hell, he's probably been to America and the UK at some stage or another.

Not all terrorists in this region are indigenous to Iraq, and nowadays they can probably pass as a citizen of just about any country they choose. They are not limited to reading and writing in their own language.

I'd love to be able to believe that some dark force was behind this, but not even I can get behind this particular conspiracy theory.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 7]

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Ron,

I think you may not be reading through some of these posts completely.

No one is arguing that his death happened; it’s the manner in which it happened, the details in that tape that are being questioned.

Jennifer

No, Im reading them all...What it is happening is that I can't believe the replies.

You have a video that yes was edited. But that clearly does show a Jewish man named Berg tells the camera his name, his home town, and his families names. Then some guy with a knife cuts off his head.

Some of the replies are really stupid.

"A guy is wearing sneakers"
"One is wearing a ring"
"They look white"

Still you only have to ask some very simple questions.

Do the Islam extremists hate Jews? YES
Do they hate Americans? YES
Are they trying to kill both Americans, and Jews? YES
Do they also love to do really grapic examples of their hatred? YES
Did Berg in his own voice say his name, home town, and famliy members? YES
Did the video, though edited, show a guy that claimed to be Berg getting his head cut off? YES
Was Bergs body found with his head cut off? YES

Berg was a Jew that was American that just returned from Israel...He would be the most perfect subject of this type of snuff film.

As for the edit:
Here is a small hint...I would bet that its not easy to cut a guys head off with a knife. The amount of time it would take could very easily account for the edit.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mailin 0]

I'll leave it at this:

You believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want. Come to your own understanding/conclusions. There are many answers for every questions - which one to believe is up to you. Examining all possibilities only heightens ones understanding - and that is what I am doing.

Best of luck in your search (or non-search) for the truth,

Jen

Arianna Frances

[freeflybella 0]

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not even I can get behind this particular conspiracy theory.

Your entire post is an argument for reasonable doubt in "getting behind" any side of the question.

There are some lovely shades of grey in the world.

(Why is it when an artist can pull subtleties of light and shadow in a painting - or when a mathmetician can comprehend theory - or a musician can create uncommon sound - they are appreciated and respected for their abilities. But we have such a hard time understanding there are just as many variables and nuances in everyday life?)

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[Michele 1]

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The ability to argue better or articulate your thoughts more clearly or link to better articles does not make one "know the truth'.

Hi, Shani.

The reason I asked for clarification is because once a position is clarified specifically, then arguments and debate can occur about that particular point. For example, the white/black hood. Interesting point. Can be argued several different ways, some which may shed some truth (from both sides). Lack of blood. Again, can be argued several ways, several conclusions.

Saying "I'm not going to go into details" lets me know that the person who has taken a position is not interested in learning; rather, it's more a "I'll think what I want, despite anything you say", and thus I look at that as someone who isn't interested in seeing more than their own position about a topic.

That's the reason I asked. I'm all for looking at everything from all angles, and considering sources and challenging conclusions.

As for linking articles, well, there is a difference between linking rumor-mongering articles and some that have some credibility behind it. Basic debate - can you support your chosen position from a factual basis, or only by nebulous and unclear statements?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[livendive 8]

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And who would think otherwise, you have a country that had invaded two of its neighbors in recent memory, lobbed ballistic missiles at another, plotted to assassinate one of our presidents in addition to countless other acts of "terror" (like sending money to the families of jihadists who blow themselves up)...all of that, while thumbing its nose at the UN (while bending it over to funnel funds from oil-for-food to the tune of billions) and the world.

Because the US hasn't invaded any other countries, lobbed any missiles, tried to assassinate any presidents, sent money to any armed resistance groups, or thumbed it's nose at the UN and the world?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Your entire post is an argument for reasonable doubt in "getting behind" any side of the question."

If there's any reasonable doubt, it can't possibly be a conspiracy.

What I'm saying is, there are perfectly acceptable reasons why there are strange accents, and unexpected linguistic skills in modern terrorists.

What I'm saying is, I don't think the CIA are behind this.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 7]

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I'll leave it at this:

And I'll leave it at this:
Have fun with your witch hunt.

I hope you find the killer of both Berg and JFK in the studio where there filmed the lunar landing in the Nevada desert by area 51.

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Best of luck in your search (or non-search) for the truth,

Best of luck looking right past the truth.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[speedy 0]

I guess now they can check if they were CIA operatives or not.
Four arrested
From sky news:

EXECUTION: FOUR HELD

Four people have been arrested over the beheading of American Nicholas Berg, Iraq sources say.

The 26-year-old businessman's decapitated body was found 10 days ago in Baghdad.


His killing was shown around the world on the internet.

The poor quality website video showed Berg dressed in orange overalls kneeling on the floor with his hands tied back.

There were five masked men behind him. One read a statement urging Muslims to take revenge over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

The masked men then pushed the American contractor to the floor and shouted "God is greatest" above his screams.

His head was cut off with a knife and then held aloft.

The website said the execution was performed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a top ally of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

It is not known if he was among the four people arrested.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[freeflybella 0]

Hi Michele,

I had to go back and reread your posts.
My post was not directed to you.

I understand the necessity of clarification and logic and the ability to articulate - in a debate. Where 2 sides of a point are argued.

I also understand that that's what some people do or like to do. There are others who prefer to listen and take in and not take sides for the sake of argument. (like me)

But choosing not to take sides does not mean I give up my ability to have thoughts or feelings or instincts about the subject. (like cvfd1399)

And the fact that I won't let others force me into taking a firm position on something I have no real knowledge of does not mean they are more 'right' than I.

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Basic debate - can you support your chosen position from a factual basis, or only by nebulous and unclear statements?

Can any of us here really argue one side over the other from a factual basis in this instance? It seems to me that there must be rules of mutually agreed upon 'givens' in a debate.

And even then, debate is just an exercise. A sport.

Do we really find 'truth' from debate?

I understand taking a position but only from direct experience - my surprise is that anyone here could or would take a position on this.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[cvfd1399 0]

How is the weather?

[Michele 1]

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I also understand that that's what some people do or like to do. There are others who prefer to listen and take in and not take sides for the sake of argument. (like me).

But choosing not to take sides does not mean I give up my ability to have thoughts or feelings or instincts about the subject. (like cvfd1399)

That's totally all right; there's no issue in waiting to take a position (if ever). But if someone does take a position (mostly contrary to mine), but won't substantiate it, then I have a hard time understanding where they're coming from. Therefore, debate is not happening, and cannot happen. I can't learn, nor can I educate. And there can be no discussion.

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And the fact that I won't let others force me into taking a firm position on something I have no real knowledge of does not mean they are more 'right' than I.

Agreed again. I haven't asked anyone to take a position. I've asked that they clarify the one they've taken, so that I can understand it.

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Do we really find 'truth' from debate?

I think we do. I know I've learned much from people posting. I know of one person who learned from something I posted.

Learning - taking into consideration others' views, and either arguing for or against, will strengthen one's own views, or correct those own views when skewed, if done honestly and with intellectual integrity.

I do find value in the discussions. Some I post in, some I don't, but I tend to learn things. And that's good, isn't it?

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I understand taking a position but only from direct experience - my surprise is that anyone here could or would take a position on this.

Well, but in this case, no-one but Berg and the beheaders can speak, right?

Can only someone who has experienced a thunderstorm talk about it? Only those who've experienced an earthquake? Only those who've had a spouse be duplicitous speak to that? That would bring conversation (all over) to a halt...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[freeflybella 0]

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Can only someone who has experienced a thunderstorm talk about it? Only those who've experienced an earthquake? Only those who've had a spouse be duplicitous speak to that? That would bring conversation (all over) to a halt...

No, it wouldn't. If we limited our conversation and point of view to our own direct experience, there would be no "I know the tape is real" The conversation would be more real, more productive, more inclusive and more likely to produce thoughtful interaction.

The answer to all your questions above should be yes.

Experience isn't limited to having been in a thunderstorm. You may never have been, but have lost a family member in one. Therefore that is the capacity of your experience.

You may have heard that thunderstorms are beautiful but have never seen one. "Thunderstorms are beautiful" is not from a position of experience. "I have heard thunderstorms are beautiful" is.

As it relates to this discussion, "The tape is real" doesn't work for me.

**

I'm not questioning the need for discussion, Michele. Nor am I questioning the value of it.

I question why anyone who doesn't know, would say they know.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[kallend 1,660]

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Can only someone who has experienced a thunderstorm talk about it? Only those who've experienced an earthquake? Only those who've had a spouse be duplicitous speak to that? That would bring conversation (all over) to a halt...

Ciels-
Michele

There are things that no words can describe and you just have to experience them to understand.

Like sex, skydiving, flying a small plane in a thunderstorm...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.