Coming Soon? FAHRENHEIT 911

[ltdiver 3]

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The day after 9/11, the bin Laden family members were flown out of the country thanks to a special order allowing them air travel while the remainder of the country's airports were shut down.

And its a good thing they did leave when they did.

Can you say 'guilt by blood relationship'?

Some people don't remember history on the subject. Read it HERE.

Saying OBL's family is guilty of terrorism is like implying my mom and dad are skydivers just because I am.

Like Gaiwan stated: The Bin Laden family has revoked their son's citizenship and turned their back on him. Just because he is their son does not make them guilty of the same things he is.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[PhillyKev 0]

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I think it is really sad how many of our freedoms we have lost since bush took office.
This is America Land of the FREE lets keep it that way.

Considering that this action by Disney has nothing to do with Bush being in office, I don't see your logic.

Right, and Clear Channel pulling Stern off their stations has nothing to do with Bush either. They just suddenly decided to yank him after 10 years and drop from the number one ratings spot in 4 of the markets. It had absolutely nothing to do with Bush changing the rules so that Clear Channel could expand into other markets and that Stern began criticising Bush 2 weeks before Clear Channel yanked him.

[Gawain 0]

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OK so I'll ask...Do you think it would have been any different if anyone else had been in office?

I'll answer from my own perspective: No. Why? Because the Patriot Bill has been in "standby" for probably over 10 years. Considering the speed and decisiveness with which it was passed, it was a contingency bill, one of many I bet, based on the perceived threat. Had the fourth plane not crashed on 9/11, or if another attack were successful, you can bet that there are bills waiting in the wings with real teeth in them -- ones that make Patriot Act look like a teddy bear.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

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Bush 2 weeks before Clear Channel yanked him.

Dude, Stern's been criticising Bush for waaaaay longer than two weeks. Bush doesn't give a sh*t about Stern. Clear Channel is acting PC and wimpy in response to a complaint to the FCC and subsequent fine. Four markets won't hurt Stern, he's still got 100+ to spew his nonsense (I like Stern too, just don't listen to him much), and if his agent plays it right, he'll be on a competitor's station in those four markets within weeks.

There are influences in our society which don't necessarily originate from the White House. People/Entities with beliefs can carry their message. Many people, when offended, or confronted, will back away. A few, will confront and challenge. One day, somebody put a big blip on the radar screen about Stern. A lot of people hit their own moral wall on Super Bowl Sunday (I don't care), and they have renewed vigor to confront it.

Disney, a corporation with several "liberal" practices in its own right, doesn't give a sh*t about Bush either...but that's my opinion.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[SkyDekker 1,130]

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Dude, Stern's been criticising Bush for waaaaay longer than two weeks. Bush doesn't give a sh*t about Stern. Clear Channel is acting PC and wimpy in response to a complaint to the FCC and subsequent fine. Four markets won't hurt Stern, he's still got 100+ to spew his nonsense (I like Stern too, just don't listen to him much), and if his agent plays it right, he'll be on a competitor's station in those four markets within weeks.

There are influences in our society which don't necessarily originate from the White House. People/Entities with beliefs can carry their message. Many people, when offended, or confronted, will back away. A few, will confront and challenge. One day, somebody put a big blip on the radar screen about Stern. A lot of people hit their own moral wall on Super Bowl Sunday (I don't care), and they have renewed vigor to confront it.

Disney, a corporation with several "liberal" practices in its own right, doesn't give a sh*t about Bush either...but that's my opinion

Never thought I would say this, but I agree with you.

[Gawain 0]

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Never thought I would say this, but I agree with you.

I had to do a reply with the quote in case you changed your mind and edited your post! WoW!!!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhillyKev 0]

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Dude, Stern's been criticising Bush for waaaaay longer than two weeks.

Since January, two weeks before Clear Channel yanked him.

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Clear Channel is acting PC and wimpy in response to a complaint to the FCC and subsequent fine.

Then why haven't they yanked all of their other shock jocks? And they weren't fined until 2 months AFTER they dropped him.

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There are influences in our society which don't necessarily originate from the White House. People/Entities with beliefs can carry their message. Many people, when offended, or confronted, will back away. A few, will confront and challenge. One day, somebody put a big blip on the radar screen about Stern.

And then a blip about Oprah Winfrey was put on the radar screen for speaking about the exact same topic, and using the same language as Stern did in what he was fined for. But the FCC didn't fine her. Their stated reason was that she is too beloved (in other words, it would turn her fans against the administration).

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Disney, a corporation with several "liberal" practices in its own right,

Disney? Liberal? This is the company that fired people for being gay, and guys were banned from having long hair or ear rings even if they were covered by a costume in Disney World.

[JohnRich 4]

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I've lost the freedom to fly my plane without worrying that a TFR will be set up after my departure along my flight path and that I can be intercepted or shot down if I go there....

Irony time!

It's interesting that you consider the above to be a "loss of freedom".

Now, recall the thread about the Illinois homeowner who is being prosecuted for legally shooting a home invader with a handgun, in a town where handguns were banned. It is your claim that he didn't suffer any loss of freedom when that ordinance was passed, because he had the option to move elsewhere, or get rid of his handguns, in order to comply with the law.

Now back to your TFR issue. So, applying your handgun ban philosophy to your TFR situtation, your response should have been: "Well, if I don't like it, I can just sell my airplane and take up some other hobby." But no, instead you consider this one to be a loss of freedom!

It's funny to watch how your philosophy shifts when something strikes you close to home. This is another example of the ever-shifting sands of your standards.

[billvon 2,412]

>Had the fourth plane not crashed on 9/11, or if another attack were
> successful, you can bet that there are bills waiting in the wings with
> real teeth in them -- ones that make Patriot Act look like a teddy
> bear.

Definitely true, although they have already tried to pass them. Do a search on the Patriot II or VICTORY acts.

[Ron 7]

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Right, and Clear Channel pulling Stern off their stations has nothing to do with Bush either. They just suddenly decided to yank him after 10 years and drop from the number one ratings spot in 4 of the markets. It had absolutely nothing to do with Bush changing the rules so that Clear Channel could expand into other markets and that Stern began criticising Bush 2 weeks before Clear Channel yanked him.

Wow according to you Bush is the most powerful man ever!!!

You must think he is reponsable for me dropping a peanut butter sandwhich on my Moms carpet when I was 5 also....Everything else he has done.

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Then why haven't they yanked all of their other shock jocks? And they weren't fined until 2 months AFTER they dropped him.

UH, they did...Bubba the Love Sponge was fired the same week.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 3]

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Wow according to you Bush is the most powerful man ever!!!

Well, kinda, sorta, by definition . . . he is . . . isn't he?

I mean, he's the Commander in Chief of the most powerful nation on the planet and has consolidated more power in the Executive Branch than any other previous President, so . . .

And regardless of that, even if you don't consider him the -most- powerful man ever, he certainly rises to the level of one of the most influential when it comes to companies acting according to his wishes because of fear of reprisals.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhillyKev 0]

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Wow according to you Bush is the most powerful man ever!!!

Ummm, he is.

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UH, they did...Bubba the Love Sponge was fired the same week.

And they were fined for Elliot in the Morning. But they continue to syndicate his program.

[Ron 7]

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Wow according to you Bush is the most powerful man ever!!!

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Well, kinda, sorta, by definition . . . he is . . . isn't he?

I mean, he's the Commander in Chief of the most powerful nation on the planet and has consolidated more power in the Executive Branch than any other previous President, so . . .

And regardless of that, even if you don't consider him the -most- powerful man ever, he certainly rises to the level of one of the most influential when it comes to companies acting according to his wishes because of fear of reprisals.

Quade...you missed the point of how he seems to get blamed for every thing..Unless you also think he is to blame for the Jelly stain of '77?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Gawain 0]

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he seems to get blamed for every thing..Unless you also think he is to blame for the Jelly stain of '77?

That I place squarely on Carter.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Ron 7]

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Wow according to you Bush is the most powerful man ever!!!

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Ummm, he is.

Maybe, but you also think he is responsable for every bad thing to happen..So I guess I can blame him for me getting drunk and sleeping with that ugly chick then huh?

Good, I was regretting that one...Glad I can pin it on him.

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UH, they did...Bubba the Love Sponge was fired the same week.

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And they were fined for Elliot in the Morning. But they continue to syndicate his program.

Let me guess..bush did this also? Last time I checked Bush didn't work for Clear Channel.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[quade 3]

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Last time I checked Bush didn't work for Clear Channel.

(normally I don't stoop to this, but um . . .)

Cough, cough.

No. Of -course- not.

Clear Channel has -nothing- to do with the right wing establishment.

Ok, folks, let's get back to reality.

Clear Channel -does- have quite a bit to do with the right wing establishment of this country. Clear Channel helped put GWB into office and continues to support GWB.

http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/04/18_clear.html

Or, just do a Google of this phrase "Clear Channel" media bias

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[livendive 8]

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I say we send his fat ass to Iraq and let him fight with the terrorists that he seems to love so much.

Which "terrorists" in Iraq? The Iraq war and the "war on terror" are seperate conflicts. The men in Iraq who are attacking our troops are simply engaged in guerilla warfare against a superior army that has invaded and is now occupying their country.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Right, and Clear Channel pulling Stern off their stations has nothing to do with Bush either. They just suddenly decided to yank him after 10 years and drop from the number one ratings spot in 4 of the markets. It had absolutely nothing to do with Bush changing the rules so that Clear Channel could expand into other markets and that Stern began criticising Bush 2 weeks before Clear Channel yanked him.

It may well be more about the FCC, not Clear Channel.

Doesn't matter though. If CC no longer wishes to pay a man to perform as a talk show host because he's on the other side of the political spectrum, it's fully within their rights to do so. Another radio station in those towns will be happy to pick up Howard.

I object far more to the FCC actions, which appear inconsistent and targetted. (And I'm tired of our airwaves being sanitized to protect the children)

[PhillyKev 0]

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Maybe, but you also think he is responsable for every bad thing to happen..

I think he's responsible for every bad thing that occurs as a result of the actions of him and his administration. If Colon Powells son forced you to get drunk and forced that ugly chick on you because you were critical of Bush, then you could blame him.

[Ron 7]

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I think he's responsible for every bad thing that occurs as a result of the actions of him and his administration

Yet you fail to show how Bush had anything to do about it.

I listend to Bubba, and hell I liked him, but he was always pushing it...I was not surprized when he got fired...I don't like Stern, but from what I know, I am not surprized there either.

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If Colon Powells son forced you to get drunk and forced that ugly chick on you because you were critical of Bush, then you could blame him.

Have you been spying on me?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kmcguffee 0]

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The Iraq war and the "war on terror" are seperate conflicts.

Same war but different conflicts. They are both part of the overall "war on terror".

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The men in Iraq who are attacking our troops are simply engaged in guerilla warfare against a superior army that has invaded and is now occupying their country.

Some are and some are not. There are foreign fighters in Iraq who profess to be members of terrorist groups. They are terrorists.

I'm sure you'll require me to provide sources. Here are a few:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/11/iraq-031103-irna01.htm

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/Iraq/2003/11/02/244886-ap.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-08-19-terror-trademarks_x.htm

I left out statements by the Bush administration or the US Army because I'm sure everyone would claim they are lying. All of the above links are from Middle Eastern leaders or non-government groups.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 2,412]

>Same war but different conflicts. They are both part of the
>overall "war on terror".

Well, in the same way that every single thing the government does (including arresting people who accidentally leave bags in airports) is part of the "war on terror," then yes. But claiming that a man who accidentally leaves his bag in the airport is just like Osama Bin Laden is silly. The Iraq war is a separate war. Not all Iraqis are terrorists; not all insurgents are terrorists. There are some terrorists in Iraq just as there are some terrorists in the US. But we are not there because of them; we went there to rid Hussein of weapons of mass destruction. Then when we couldn't find any, we changed it to freeing Iraqis from Saddam's brutal rule and torture chambers. I'm not sure what the next reason will be.

[Gawain 0]

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The Iraq war is a separate war. Not all Iraqis are terrorists; not all insurgents are terrorists. There are some terrorists in Iraq just as there are some terrorists in the US. But we are not there because of them; we went there to rid Hussein of weapons of mass destruction. Then when we couldn't find any, we changed it to freeing Iraqis from Saddam's brutal rule and torture chambers. I'm not sure what the next reason will be.

If you look at the text of Bush's announcement of the beginning of the Iraqi conflict, you'll note that there were several components/objectives to the action, not just WMDs.

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The Oval Office
10:16 P.M. EST
THE PRESIDENT: My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030319-17.html

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kmcguffee 0]

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But we are not there because of them; we went there to rid Hussein of weapons of mass destruction. Then when we couldn't find any, we changed it to freeing Iraqis from Saddam's brutal rule and torture chambers. I'm not sure what the next reason will be.

The objectives haven't changed. Here they are from an article published March 22, 2003:

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"Coalition military operations are focused on achieving several specific objectives: to end the regime of Saddam Hussein by striking with force on a scope and scale that makes clear to Iraqis that he and his regime are finished," he said.

Next, Rumsfeld said their goal is "to identify, isolate and eventually eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, their delivery systems, production capabilities, and distribution networks. Third, he said, they'll "search for, capture, drive out terrorists who have found safe harbor in Iraq."

Fourth, they plan to "collect such intelligence as we can find related to terrorist networks in Iraq and beyond," followed by collection of "such intelligence as we can find related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction activity."

Sixth, they seek "to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian relief, food and medicine to the displaced and to the many needy Iraqi citizens." Seventh, they plan to "secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people, and which they will need to develop their country after decades of neglect by the Iraqi regime."

"And last, to help the Iraqi people create the conditions for a rapid transition to a representative self-government that is not a threat to its neighbors and is committed to ensuring the territorial integrity of that country," Rumsfeld said.

Link here: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPentagon.asp?Page=\Pentagon\archive\200303\PEN20030322e.html

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But claiming that a man who accidentally leaves his bag in the airport is just like Osama Bin Laden is silly

How has that got anything to do with what I said? During WWII we fought several different conflicts but they were all part of the same war. We fought in the Pacific, the Mediteranean, and in Europe all while maintaining heightened security in the US against domestic attacks. It was all one large war effort with multiple theaters and conflicts. In fact, we actually invaded and occupied two countries that never attacked us. Care to guess which two that was?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 2,412]

>During WWII we fought several different conflicts but they were all
>part of the same war.

Agreed. Indeed, both the Korean War and the Vietnam War were part of the 'war on communism' - but it would be silly to call them all part of one war. They were two separate offensive efforts, with two different sets of goals.