If a worker strikes, should he lose his job?

[Chizazz 0]

If an employee with 25 years with a company has his contract run out and he goes on strike until a new contract is agreed upon, does the employer have the right to hire somebody else? Whatchya think???

[tunaplanet 0]

Yes.

Forty-two

[Cudlo 0]

Uhh... yes.. unless there has been some law put in place that says a company can not fill open positions

_________________________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[Nightingale 0]

depends on the law in that state. Some states have a right to strike law, while others don't.

[Cudlo 0]

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depends on the law in that state. Some states have a right to strike law, while others don't.

and these would apply to people with contracts which have expired?

_________________________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

[Gawain 0]

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depends on the law in that state. Some states have a right to strike law, while others don't.

and these would apply to people with contracts which have expired?

It depends if those contracts are part of a collective bargaining agreement with a union. An individual member of a union cannot strike if the union is not. If a union is not part of the picture, then the company can pretty much fire an individual.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Nightingale 0]

Yep.

If it is an individual I would HIGHLY recommend against running a one-man strike. You're just going to get fired.

If you're with a union, that changes things.

[billvon 2,471]

Yes. A company can fire an employee for many reasons; refusing to work is one of the top ones.

[vonSanta 0]

Yeah, supply and demand in action.

The lesson being: don't try to sell your goods for a higher price than they're worth to the market.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[storm1977 0]

I think this is an open and shut case.
To quote Mr. Trump "You're Fired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

The only real clout a union has is its ability to get an entire work force to strike. If only one or a few people stike it is pretty easy to replace them.

With that said, even if a whole work force strikes they too can be replaced. Just ask the FAA guys what happened in the 80's.....

Anyway, unions suck striking sux... If you or someone you know doesn't like the way they are being treated at a job, then find a new one.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[jakee 1,279]

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With that said, even if a whole work force strikes they too can be replaced. Just ask the FAA guys what happened in the 80's.....

Same thing happened to the english printers union, I think it was the early 80's.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"he goes on strike until a new contract is agreed upon"
Over here, I guess it would depend on the nature of the 'disagreement', eg if it was over a major change in conditions, health and safety issues, radically changing work patterns etc then sacking the guy could be a little unfair, leading to a tribunal.
But generally, if its just an admin delay, then yes he should be bagged for taking unauthorised holidays.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[rehmwa 2]

"should" he lose his job is the question.
Don't know.

However, an employer 'should' be able to choose their employees by their own criteria as well as replace one for whatever reason.

Quit for any reason
Fire for any reason
seems fair if it goes both ways

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pajarito 0]

Absolutely.

[diverdriver 5]

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"should" he lose his job is the question.
Don't know.

However, an employer 'should' be able to choose their employees by their own criteria as well as replace one for whatever reason.

Quit for any reason
Fire for any reason
seems fair if it goes both ways

Pilot refuses to fly a plane that some mechanic manager has signed off as "safe". Fired? I don't think so. But that seems to be what you all are saying. There is absolutely NO reason a person should go on "strike". Well, there are plenty of reasons to stop working. ALL unions are not created equal.

No, I don't believe the worker should be replaced. I believe the law says that the American worker has the right to unionize and if that contract with the company has come to the end then the workers have the right to seek "self help". Now, the workers could choose to continue to work during negotiations on the old contract. And there should be no sick outs or wildcat strikes. That diminishes your bargaining position in my opinion. But I don't believe they should be canned for not working when the contract runs out. That's why it is important for management AND labor to start negotiations well before the contract runs out.

I just went through a near strike in 2001. We took it 20 minutes past the deadline. Airline negotiations are different as our contracts never really end. They become "ammendable" and we can't strike until a National Mediation Board member says we can go to a 30 day cooling off period at which time we can strike at the end.

I think many here forget what unions brought about over the years. It's a check and balance. The companies want to beat down labor costs so they can get rich. People just want a fair wage to support their family on usually. If the upper managements guys are getting stinking rich on their backs why shouldn't they seek to share the wealth? They made the company go. Without labor a company is nothing really.

It behooves all sides to play nice so that the company on a whole is successful and all can earn a comfortable living. Not all management is bad and not all unions are bad. But there are examples of both being bad. Tyco, Enron, United Airlines. They drilled their companies into the ground and 100s of thousands of workers lost their retirement funds and took pay cuts AND many lost their jobs. The fat cats at the top still got their MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR BONUSES. That's fair? So yah, the 25 year employee that goes on strike should NOT get fired because he excercised his legal right to unionize and seek self help.

[billvon 2,471]

>Pilot refuses to fly a plane that some mechanic manager has
>signed off as "safe". Fired? I don't think so.

Pilot refuses to fly ATR's because he feels they are unsafe, in a commuter airline that uses primarily ATR's. Fired? I would be amazed if he _wasn't_ fired.

Part of a pilot's job is to help ensure the planes he flies on are safe. If he approaches that the right way (i.e. uses realistic criteria, tries to minimize the impacts of his decision) then he's doing a good job for his employer. If he doesn't, then he's not doing such a good job and might just get the axe.

[diverdriver 5]

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>Pilot refuses to fly a plane that some mechanic manager has
>signed off as "safe". Fired? I don't think so.

Pilot refuses to fly ATR's because he feels they are unsafe, in a commuter airline that uses primarily ATR's. Fired? I would be amazed if he _wasn't_ fired.

Part of a pilot's job is to help ensure the planes he flies on are safe. If he approaches that the right way (i.e. uses realistic criteria, tries to minimize the impacts of his decision) then he's doing a good job for his employer. If he doesn't, then he's not doing such a good job and might just get the axe.

If he's refusing to fly ATRs period that's silly. But if he's refusing to fly into known freezing rain then he's right! Yet, that's exactly what some companies wanted pilots to do! Then Roselawn happened. There was a lot going on with that crash....anyway, getting side tracked.

If a pilot refuses a flight then gets "fired" by the company our union will look at the situation and step in if the contract was violated. We DO get pilots their job back if we can. You'd be amazed the silly shit people get "fired" for. Sometimes I wonder if it's just for throwing their weight around and making us work on getting the job back so we have less time to work on other issues.

But a pilot got fired for substance abuse. Did we the union step in? No. Hell no. Sorry to see it happen but no way we are going to go to bat for that.

I have seen management abuse single employees. It was the elected employee representatives that could bring a sense of calm to the situation and get all sides talking. With no balance management could just run roughshod over the individual with no impunity. It's all about balance. Unions don't win every battle you know. We've fought and lost some issues too. People think unions are about secret meetings and handshakes and baseball bats. We're not all like that.

[Kennedy 0]

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I think many here forget what unions brought about over the years. It's a check and balance. The companies want to beat down labor costs so they can get rich. People just want a fair wage to support their family on usually. If the upper managements guys are getting stinking rich on their backs why shouldn't they seek to share the wealth? They made the company go. Without labor a company is nothing really.

Here we go with the fat cat argument. What about the other side? Just look at the union guys who build roads or put up powerlines. They are paid more than they are worth. Period. Collective bargaining has swung things too far in the other direction now.

Quite simply unions want more than they are going to get, no matter what concessions are made to them. The only thing they truly want is more.

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"It's Not My Job Man!"

I just love most big labor unions. I have worked at many jobs in my nearly forty years and a time or two I've even carried a union card. I will never forget a couple of things that happened while working at union jobs. There was the time when I worked for a local (Galesburg) construction company and their asphalt machine broke down. There were about 25 loads of hot asphalt (worth over $1,000.00 per load) sitting along side of the highway waiting on it to get fixed. Illinois union rates for a truck driver on construction (at the time) ran in the $17/hr. range for straight time. Asphalt costs somewhere around $52/ton. Hot asphalt only has a life expectancy of about 4-6 hours depending on weather.

So the situation was that approximately 25 drivers making at least $17/hr. each were sitting under shade trees. Twenty-five or so loads of hot asphalt were rapidly cooling off with the potential of being rendered completely useless. In fact, if it sits too long and gets too cold asphalt sets up and has to be chipped out of a trailer by hand.

While 25 men were sitting around in the shade doing nothing and 25 loads of asphalt were cooling off only one guy seemed to be trying to fix the asphalt-spreading machine. He needed a hand holding a nut with a wrench to get it going again and not one of those guys making $17/hr would lend a hand. It wasn't in their contract to hold a wrench.

I held the wrench for him and tried to help him get the machine going. One of the other union drivers I worked with had an absolute fit that I would do such a thing. His explanation for being so upset with me was that I was putting a mechanic out of work. Well, excuse me.

Another incident that comes to mind happened when I was employed by Briggs in Abingdon several years ago. Our line ran out of work to do about an hour and a half before quitting time. I asked one of the old hands what we were to do. I was told to hide for the rest of the day! According to this seasoned worker, the boss didn't care what we did for the rest of the day as long as we were not seen by anyone. I didn't believe it, so I asked others and got the same answer several times over.

I went to the supervisor and asked him what he wanted me to do. There was plenty of work to be done. Many (most of that whole assembly line) union workers did hide. I do love unions.

The only jobs I have ever had in my 25 or so years in the work force where people whined, moaned, complained, and acted like a bunch of bawl baby brats were all union jobs. I have never seen a group of people making so much money and having so many benefits and yet complaining about every minute of it. Most of the union people I have worked with would complain about a free lunch.

Another deal that has so endeared me to labor unions was a job we did last year in Detroit. I have a video tape one of our drivers sent me to show what they went through on a daily basis with a bunch of union thugs. The language and the threats make the Godfather movie seem like Cinderella by comparison. We had many tires slashed. They started fires, blocked roads and had a mob mentality.

At one point one of our drivers filled out a police report and the next day union thugs called his house and threatened his wife and family. The only way they could have possibly gotten his home phone number was from that police report. The Detroit city cops were obviously in on it too.

The riggers who loaded our trucks had to hire mercenaries to protect themselves and their equipment, which was routinely vandalized. All this because General Motors was moving a line from one union facility in Detroit to another union facility in Union City, Indiana. (You can imagine the fun our drivers had on the other end in "Union City" too.) The UAW wasn't even losing any jobs over the move. They just didn't like it that they were going from Detroit to Indiana.

Yet another incident I will never forget involved plowing snow for the state of Illinois (which is also a union job). Every year temporary snowplow drivers or "snowbirds" as they are called go in for one day of training to refresh the old memory on how to run the plows.

Now don’t get me wrong, when it is actually snowing drivers earn their $17 or so an hour. What is amazing to me, however, is that even in Illinois it only snows a few days a year. If the training day is any indication of what goes on the rest of the time it isn't snowing $17/hr might be a bit much. See what you think.

Work is supposed to start at 8am. Everybody actually sat around and chatted until more like 8:45 or so. Then everybody went out and picked little rocks out of the tire treads and stuff for about another half hour or so. Now it is 9:15 or so and break time is at 9:30 so we don’t dare leave the building and take a chance on missing break. Another 15 minutes or so is wasted waiting for it to be break time.

Break time for union truck drivers working for the state of Illinois is supposed to be 10 minutes. Break actually lasted about 45 minutes. It is now 10:15 and nobody has done any real work at all. Finally we took the trucks out for a little bit and actually drove them around for an hour or so, but we had to hurry back to the shed plenty early so we wouldn’t miss lunch break. We got back in somewhere around 11:30 and waited til it was lunch time at noon to take our half hour break which ran until closer to 1 o’clock.

After lunch break was over a call came in that a car had hit a deer out on a state highway and it needed to be buried. Three of us were dispatched with shovels to do the job. The driver drove about 40 miles per hour or so on the way so that we would not miss seeing the deer (actually so it would take longer to get there).

When the deer was spotted one guy said something about it being a shame that all that warm meat was going to go to waste if we buried it. Conversation was had in regards to whether anybody really wanted to bury the deer or not or if it wouldn’t be more environmentally responsible to throw it over a fence where it could be a warm meal for another hungry animal. The decision was made to do the environmentally correct thing and NOT to bury the deer.

We drove back to the shop about 40 mph as well to have our after noon break. Afternoon break is also supposed to also be 10 minutes long. It lasted closer to 45. By now it is 2:45 in the afternoon. I really don’t remember what we did to kill the rest of the day til time to go home, but I do know that I didn’t even need to shower or change clothes when I got home. I didn’t do a blessed thing all day long. The one thing we had been told to do (bury the deer) we didn’t even do. I do love unions.

What other kind of a job could someone get where he could make $17/hr and not do a blessed thing all day long?

It has become a sad commentary on America that those with the "union mentality" will do just about anything to get out of work. Far too many union workers make a full time job out of not working. It is no wonder that labor unions are one of the main groups that make up the Democratic Party. But, I do love those big labor unions---NOT! Death, taxes, and Democrats will always be with us, I guess, but at least death never gets any worse!

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

part two

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I just have so much love for unions that I couldn’t fit it all into one article last week.

Are labor unions totally evil? No. Have they gotten totally out of hand? Yes. Do unions do any good at all? Yes. Do they do more harm than good? Absolutely.

I worked for a non union HVAC contractor in Champaign, Illinois, back in the late 1980’s. There was only one nonunion general contractor in town big enough to keep us busy. We got all of our commercial work from S.W. Broeren. We got picketed at most jobs and called scab nearly everywhere we went. We had to go in and out a different gate on construction sites much like blacks used to have to sit in certain spots and not in others in the old south. That was fine. We got used to it.

All of a sudden our little world came to an abrupt fork in the road. Stu Broeren had constantly been threatened by union thugs, but he had big shoulders and most union people are more mouth than action anyway, so life went on until one day they realized that Stu couldn’t be intimidated by threats against him personally. Threats began to come against other members of Stu’s family and then it happened. Much like the KKK of old some union thugs firebombed Stu’s parents property. That was too much for old Stu. S.W. Broeren Construction general contractors became union almost overnight.

The shop that I worked for then had no contractor left in the Champaign-Urbana area big enough to keep us in work, so our shop became union too. Before that happened we used to get compliments and questions on nearly every job site as to where we found people with a work ethic like our guys exhibited. They really were something to behold. All of our guys attended the same church and they worked together in an amazing way. They truly worked with all their hearts at whatever they put their hands to. Once we became union and hired guys out of the hall, all that changed rather quickly. I can’t say that it was totally because we went union that our business folded, but it didn’t last more than a few months once it did.

The idea that just because somebody sends money to a labor union and carries a card in their purse or wallet with a union symbol on it saying they are a member does not make them good and all other people who work scabs.

Scab is a word you hear a lot on union job sites. To the union worker anyone who is nonunion is a scab. What arrogance. In my experience it is just the opposite. The union people are the ones who have the nasty attitudes and won’t work an honest day for a living. If one group or the other are scabs I’ll tell you who would get my vote.

We used to have a Lawn Boy/Johnson-Evinrude OMC plant here in Galesburg. It was the nicest place to work here in town. The union wanted more and more and would never give an inch until the ultimatum came that either the union would negotiate in good faith or they would move the whole plant to South America or somewhere other than Galesburg. That factory has been idle for about 10-12 years now. At one time in fact there were bumper stickers around town that said, "Last One Out of the Burg Please Shut Off the Lights."

Just a few years ago the Maytag plant here had a union vote to protest the no smoking policy that was implemented in the plant. As far as the company was concerned it was a nonnegotiable issue. They simply said that there would be no smoking allowed any longer on Maytag property. The union voted whether to strike to try and get the new policy changed. It took a 2/3 vote to strike and over 60% of the union workers voted strike rather than honor the new no smoking policy. Maytag had threatened to move out of Galesburg if they struck. The Maytag workers were all too familiar with what had happened to the OMC workers, but yet they came awfully close to voting strike rather than not smoking on Maytag property. The moral of the story? Almost 2/3 of the union workers at the Maytag plant in Galesburg, Illinois, would rather smoke than work!

Gates Rubber told their union employees here that they would need to start working different hours or they were going to move certain machines to another plant in Kansas where the people were willing to do so. The moving trucks have come and gone and many jobs left Galesburg and went with them to Kansas.

The union mentality never ceases to amaze me. Is it that they don’t believe companies are serious when they threaten to leave a community and go where workers want to work? Or is it that they are just unwilling to give an inch and would rather be without a good job and have some sick satisfaction that they never compromised as they take a new job that pays half what they were making and with none of the benefits? I really don’t know.

Unions now take massive amounts of the money they collect from their workers and put it into political campaigns (mostly Democrat, of course). The average work-a-day-Joe has no say what the guys in the ivory towers do with his money. It goes to help elect people that many union workers find detestable. Some feel about paying union dues like they do about paying taxes. I know I always did, but pay them they must to work at many jobs. What we have with labor unions is the tail wagging the dog. The guy who works and makes the money has no more control over what the union does with his money than the poor sap who pays his taxes does. Unions oftentimes don’t represent the people who they claim to represent at all, but are a law unto themselves.

I went to a Lane Evans (ultraliberal U.S. Congressman from the Illinois 17th District where I live) meeting on health care here in Galesburg when the Klintons were trying to take it over a while back. I was practically the only Republican in the room. That became apparent when I stood up to let old Lane know that his love for raising taxes and supporting the Klinton health care plan was not popular with everyone here in Knox County. I don’t think it was cheers I heard from the crowd.

I had stapled a couple of my business cards to two tea bags. I stood and held them up for Mr. Evans and all to see and told him that I would like for him to take them back to Washington with him to remind him that we were already paying a higher percentage of taxes than the colonists were when they threw the English tea into the Boston harbor. I told him that small business could simply not stand any more taxes to pay for health care. I explained that if he was successful in changing the laws and requiring small businesses like mine to provide health care for their employees that the end result would be loss of jobs. We would have to lay off rather than pay out any more in benefits and taxes.

Some big old boy behind me wearing a union jacket got in my face and smarted off that he bet we had health insurance. The truth of the matter is that because of self employment taxes of 15% which we have to pay (people who are not self employed don’t pay it) that we haven’t had any kind of real health insurance since I have been self employed.

Unions once had a place. There was a real need to organize at one time, but it is too bad some things live on after they have served their purpose. Unions still have a place it just hasn't been dug yet.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Nightingale 0]

I had a conversation with a striking grocery cashier a few months ago.

I knew the facts about this strike. I did my research before deciding not to support it. Normally, I walked right by them, and they didn't bother me. However, this particular woman decided to stop me and read me the riot act about crossing her picket line.

I simply told her I didn't support the strike.

She asked why not.

I asked what she did. She was a cashier. I asked what the job entailed. Ringing up purchases. Basically, dragging items over a scanner, hitting a total key, and occasionally making change.

I asked how much she made per hour. I think it was something like $19.50.

I asked her if she thought what she did was worth $19.50 an hour.

She replied that it was.

So, I asked her why she simply didn't get another job for $19.50 an hour somewhere else.

She said there weren't any that she could do that paid that well.

I then pointed out that if she couldn't find someone else willing to pay her that much, then maybe what she did wasn't worth $19.50 an hour.

She shut up and let me pass.

[billvon 2,471]

>If he's refusing to fly ATRs period that's silly. But if he's refusing to
>fly into known freezing rain then he's right!

Agreed on both of them.

>With no balance management could just run roughshod over the
> individual with no impunity.

I agree. The best solution? Quit. If every good pilot quits because of poor management, only airlines with good management will survive.

[Kennedy 0]

ding ding ding ding ding ding, we have a winner Johnny.

Confront these "workers" with the facts, or anything not found in Pamphlet Making 101, and they have nothing intelligent to say.



disclaimer I know not all union workers are evil lazy little SOBs, but the vast majority are. Just like 95% of lawyers give the other 5% a bad name.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Nightingale 0]

I think most union workers are good people...

However, I think the pro-labor laws we have enable unions to bargain for benefits they otherwise would not receive. The law states that the company must bargain "in good faith" with the union. HOWEVER, no such restraint is placed on the union.

[diverdriver 5]

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I asked her if she thought what she did was worth $19.50 an hour.

She replied that it was.

So, I asked her why she simply didn't get another job for $19.50 an hour somewhere else.

She said there weren't any that she could do that paid that well.

I then pointed out that if she couldn't find someone else willing to pay her that much, then maybe what she did wasn't worth $19.50 an hour.

She shut up and let me pass.

Yah, and the price of gas is over 2 bucks a gallon. The cost of living in CA is outrageous. How can you say that getting 19.50 an hour isn't fair? How much do they pay in taxes for the privilige of living there?

[diverdriver 5]

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I agree. The best solution? Quit. If every good pilot quits because of poor management, only airlines with good management will survive.

Ok, isn't that what a strike is?