It is Time for This Nonsense to Stop!

[Sinkster 0]

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However, the U.S. Government begins with the U.S. Consititution.

The root of a tree nourishes all that follows. If the root is corrupt, the rest of the tree will wither. If the root is good, the rest of the tree will be blessed.

Read the opening of the Declaration of Independence again and you will notice that the idea is that undisputable rights come to us from God. Governments are established to uphold those rights.

Take away God and you take away the rights and then there is nothing to even be defended by any government at all!

So what is the deepest root?

[rgoper 0]

at the end of the day, all of us as humans, have consounces, whatever it is that you do, to make sure you don't have to sleep with "one eye open" is what you have to do. if you can live with decieving, stealing, etc...then so be it.

but WHATEVER you do, be ye NOT decieved "god is NOT mocked"

not trying to get on a soapbox here, just trying to bring to your attention after this mortal life is over, "there is a up, and there is a down" and DOWN ain't so friendly.

if there was no wrong or right, no heaven or hell, why are we worried about it?

this goes back to what i've said previously, believers will believe, and non-believers won't. what happens between now and then, doesn't matter, your conscience is what you live with every day.

i'll relate a story with you people real quick, and let you know what i think about EVERY day....

a friend of mine (close friend) front risered in this year, one of the first fatalities by the way. i told him something long ago, i truly regret, we were debriefing a head down dive we had done, he smoked past me in freefall after i was SSS at 2000' AGL, i counted to thousand 1-2-3-4-5 canopy, i thought "my god, he's going in" but he didn't, not this time. anyway after the debrief (you all know i'm a "safety nazi") i scolded him for not adherring to the "diveflow" and quized him on the possibilitie of 2 canopies out with his AAD, he asked "what AAD" i was truly at a loss for words, he was 27, i was 42 at the time, i told him, yeah, you might be younger than me, i'll outlive you and i'll be reading about you in the "fatalities page" i live with this thought, each and every day of my life. i loved that man, like a son, and here, i as much as phropesized his death. he's with me on every jump, still, to this day.

i will NOT criticize anyone for believing what they want to believe, nor will i try to convert anyone, BUT, the ones that do believe deserve the same respect, not ridicule, or attack, or "war of words" live and let live, and know that at the end of the day, there IS a UP and there is a DOWN, we know that much from plane rides! having related all of this, this should pretty much end the controversy of the god, or no god. like it or not, he's there, and he cares about you, and your family. "live, and let live" words to live by. (john 3:16)

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[Sinkster 0]

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"How do you know that Satan didn't orchestrate the bible?"

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? --Matthew 12:25-26

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[rgoper 0]

**the government does not have the right to impose their beliefs upon us.**

that is the most hypocritical statement i've heard this year.

i believe after you hear my comments on it, you'd be wise to retract it, i simply ask you "do you pay taxes?" if the answer to this is yes, your statement is ludricrous at best, yet profound, but wishful, and youthful optism at best, rethink this my firend.

"brother will kill brother, spilling blood across the land, killing for religion, something i don't understand"
Dave Mustaine-Megadeth

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[PhillyKev 0]

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Read the opening of the Declaration of Independence again and you will notice that the idea is that undisputable rights come to us from God. Governments are established to uphold those rights.

Take away God and you take away the rights and then there is nothing to even be defended by any government at all!

You see, that's the difference in our way of thinking. I view the "root" to be the ideas, not the deity. If the ideas were inspired by their religion that's great. Many great people have done many great things because of their belief. However many great people have also done many great things while having different beliefs (including atheism). Religious conviction can be a powerful motivator and inspiration, that doesn't make it the truth or reality, though.

My belief is that religion and everything that goes along with it is an invention of man to explain the unknown. Think about it. For centuries the majority, if not all, religions had numerous gods. God of rain, god of sun, god of famine, etc. Humans didn't understand why these things happened so they invented deities who had magical powers that caused and controlled these things. As human knowledge and science advanced, and we understood the physical reasons for rain, sunlight, etc., the gods slowly withered and died. There is really only one great mystery left to us, the creation of the universe, and in conjunction with that, our perspective of it. That is why the "God of Abraham" (central to christianity, judaism, and islam) is central to the majority of the worlds religion. Judaism was the first major monotheistic religion. The rest of the gods didn't make sense anymore. How can you worship a god when you can see the mind of that god (e.g. understanding how rain forms). We used to believe the earth was flat. We used to believe the sun revolved around the earth. We used to believe many many many things for much longer than the bible has existed. All of those beliefs have been shattered by an understanding of reality through advances in knowledge and science (hence the reason knowledge, science and new ideas have been attacked by the three major religions previously mentioned throughout history including current times...stem cell research) Some day, we will be able to explain how the universe began, and when that happens, I believe the final God will die and mankind will have one less thing to fight over or use to control others.

[skyhawk 2]

1. hell doesnt appear in all religions, however it does appear in most "government religions" i.e religions that have been endorsed by particular nations eg I THINK paganism dosnt have a hell nor do lots of other smaller groups like scientoligists lol
1a. hell is a method of control fear to do what your religions says is right, whats worse than turture or death? Hell it lasts forever and is the most horrific thing possible. look on the other side heaven(etc) the greatest of places no crime no sadness complete happyness. Which one do you want to go to? follow there rules you go do heaven disobay you go to hell that simple

2. ppl in the wtc , lost kids etc pray . this has nothing to do with an overpowering religion its purly hope. hope that there is something out there that is capable of stopping what is happening, id be willing to bet all but the most devout would be praying to anyone be they god, allah, zeus aliens or bill gates

3. please correct me if im wrong but my understanding is that the USA was a. "settled" by the pilgrams, god fearing blah blah blah pilgrams,b. settled hundreds of years ago, in a time where for the most part everyone in a particuler region not only believed in the same god but was extremly devout, hell just at the start of the 1900's most ppl in the western world got up every sunday put on there sunday bests and went to church

anyway point is of course your constitution is full of god refereneces that was then this is now.

i dont really care if you keep the god references personally i think the effort to change it is more than its worth however mayby it shouldnt be
one nation, under god instead
one nation, under our ancestors .....

[Iflyme 0]

It's difficult to escape the tentacles of religion ... at the ballpark during closing ceremonies for all the kids last weekend, the Little League pledge included the phrase "I trust in God..."

If you are a believer, that's your choice, but I would suggest there should be no reference to any religion in a public place. Sports, schools, and every other place where all members of society are invited to gather should be free from religion. I fully agree with your courts ruling.

[TomAiello 25]

>**the government does not have the right to impose their beliefs upon us.**

that is the most hypocritical statement i've heard this year.<

How about this?

The Government does not have the right to impose beliefs derived from faith upon it's citizens.

Or, to quote some British magazine, "To impose beliefs derived from faith on those who do not share them is odious." They were talking about Afghanistan, in an article written in 1996.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Congress did a lot of wacky stuff in the mid-50s

And that's different from today, how?

Jefferson originally wrote a section into the constitution allowing congress to meet only three months every second year--so that (his words) "they would not damage over much."

Some state constitutions (mostly in the Southeast) still contain very similar requirements.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 2,466]

>If the framers of the constitution did it, then it was not intended to
> be unconstitutional!

The original constitution said that you had to return slaves to their rightful owners. Gonna argue we should still do that?

>Liberals have been trying for years to twist the words of our >constitution, this time it won't work! People are finally tired of the
> fanaticle left wing!

Like those dang fanatical radicals that abolished slavery, in direct violation of the constitution? Those fools almost tore the country apart!

[billvon 2,466]

>if there was no wrong or right, no heaven or hell, why are we
>worried about it?

Perhaps you and I just have different sets of values. I wouldn't steal from someone, even if I knew there was no punishment (either metaphysical in the sense of hell or legal in the sense of getting caught) because my morals say that's wrong to do. My morals come from me, and I am a product of the environment and culture I grew up in. Some of those came from an organized religion (my parents were religious) and some came purely from me, from my experiences and desires. But it's safe to say at this point that none of my actions take into consideration that I might be relegated to a firey eternity some day - and yet there are still a great many things that I worry about and try to make sure I do the right thing in my book.

[billvon 2,466]

>Some day, we will be able to explain how the universe began, and
> when that happens, I believe the final God will die and mankind will
> have one less thing to fight over or use to control others.

We will never know everything (in fact, we cannot know everything) so if god's death is predicated on omniscience he's pretty safe.

[cloud9 0]

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The original constitution said that you had to return slaves to their rightful owners. Gonna argue we should still do that?

This is an asinine argument. It was not intended to be unconstitutional, however they did give us the right to amend.

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Like those dang fanatical radicals that abolished slavery, in direct violation of the constitution? Those fools almost tore the country apart!

Like it or not it did in fact tear the country apart!

[Zenister 0]

there is the rub.
i do not "owe" my soul to anyone elses personification of divinity.

this is posted from another forum where we discuss but the bulk of it applies so i wont change my words

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Originally posted by Sfaret:
All man has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But through the sacrifice Jesus made we may all be redeemed of those sins and be re-united with God.
For those that do not believe in this stuff, I do understand, I have been there. But when you actually see the hand of God, when you feel it touch your heart and your life, there is no more doubt.

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originally posted by Zenister

Its not offensive at all, its just wrong.

I have never been “separated from god”
Nor do I need his forgiveness for the sins of “hypothetical” ancestors.

I touch his hand every time I throw myself into the sky.

I float 300 yards out under a full moon and hear her voice whispering beneath the waves.

I watch as thousand-year-old glaciers melt into the sea and view the wonders of creation cycle.

You are separated from god because you chose to be.

My salvation is based on my own actions, my ability to faithfully follow my path with no intentions, without regrets.

The blood a carpenters son, may or may not have spilt is meaningless to me, however much it means to you.

Mythology is just that. Myth.
Dogma is worthless
Religion is a means of controlling the people.

Find your own salvation, why do you need someone else’s vision of divinity to know god? The only sin is not finding your own answers, but blindly accepting those given to you.

I take offense when ANYONE claims they have the only True Path.

Religion is a choice, race is not.
You can be “made fun off” for the choices you make.
If you don’t like it, defend yourself, or make other choices.

Race? What race what jesus? human.


“christ walks into a hotel….”

Its funny, if you cant laugh, your not really alive and god probably wont want you around since you cant enjoy his creation.
------------------
you could make a choice, but you never learned to think. FW -Part of the Machine

the problem always seems to be "whos god?" and that is something goverment should stay far away from

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[gravitysurf808 0]

I will ALWAYS respectfully listen and contemplate all my brothers and sisters beliefs and opinions without any predjudice.

My own spirituality is a very 'personal' thing for me.

That said;

*****************************************
In response to Muenkel post:

BTW Lisa, I was always taught that if you wanted to avoid confrontation, there are two topics to stay away from....Religion and Politics! So you're smart having a private spirituality. You probably live a much more peaceful life.
*****************************************

GRAVITY
<> Mom always said, "There's only two ways to KILL a good party Forrest; In conversation bring up either Religion or Politics." <>

______________________
In response to rgoper post:

if there was no wrong or right, no heaven or hell, why are we worried about it?
_______________________
GRAVITY

Well said brother!

But what if I don't believe in any kind of higher or lower existance in Heaven or Hell at all? ;What the hell does....'Come to the 'DARK SIDE!'..mean??????

The 'DARK SIDE' doesn't exist right?? I mean, how can one exist without the other?????

<>>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In response to PhillyKev post:

My belief is that religion and everything that goes along with it is an invention of man to explain the unknown. Think about it. For centuries the majority, if not all, religions had numerous gods. God of rain, god of sun, god of famine, etc. Humans didn't understand why these things happened so they invented deities who had magical powers that caused and controlled these things. As human knowledge and science advanced, and we understood the physical reasons for rain, sunlight, etc., the gods slowly withered and died. There is really only one great mystery left to us, the creation of the universe, and in conjunction with that, our perspective of it. That is why the "God of Abraham" (central to christianity, judaism, and islam) is central to the majority of the worlds religion. Judaism was the first major monotheistic religion. The rest of the gods didn't make sense anymore. How can you worship a god when you can see the mind of that god (e.g. understanding how rain forms). We used to believe the earth was flat. We used to believe the sun revolved around the earth. We used to believe many many many things for much longer than the bible has existed. All of those beliefs have been shattered by an understanding of reality through advances in knowledge and science (hence the reason knowledge, science and new ideas have been attacked by the three major religions previously mentioned throughout history including current times...stem cell research) Some day, we will be able to explain how the universe began, and when that happens, I believe the final God will die and mankind will have one less thing to fight over or use to control others.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
GRAVITY

Sorry PhilKev. I may be mistaken (as I've been made painfully aware of by others before :-) ) But what you're saying is that WE ARE the higher power?? We just don't have the complete understanding of it all 'just yet'??

Once we do what happens then?

If we are progressing then why at the same time are we multiplying (humans) at about the same frightenly rapid rate that we are destroying the source of our own existence (earth/resources)??

I seem to remember I was once told in a Philosophy class that this very belief could actually be considered just another form of religion they called 'Humanism'.

History shows that when any 'system' (business, political, nature, etc.) has finally reached it's peak it's destined to dive down (usually quite rapidly) from there.


RE:'In God We Trust' printed on American money?

This is such a joke as
Money&Power = a God to most people in our world today. No??? (thoughts welcomed)
(but I could be wrong)

[kallend 1,673]

Only the two words that were added in 1954 cause the problem. Leave them out and everything's OK.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[scottbre 0]

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The problem appears to be the the phrase "under God" which, and I know I'll get flack for this, I agree with. That is to say, the phrase has no business being in there.

Seems like the majority opinion of law experts and scholars is that this ruling will be overturned fairly quickly.

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[gemini 0]

I am proud of you guys! Compared with some of the discussions in the past, this has been reasonably controlled and respectful of all opinions. Although I don't agree with everything that has been said, we all have the right to our opinion and (as stated yesterday) some of us will fight for your right to say whatever you want even when we don't agree. We as Americans will survive issues that divide other peoples because we are not afraid to state our opinions even when there is a personal cost.

Blue skies,

Jim

[Sinkster 0]

Taken from cnn.com:

Speaking Thursday at the G-8 summit in Canada, Bush said the ruling was "out of step with the history and traditions of America," and said it highlighted the need for "common sense judges that understand that our rights are derived from God."

At least someone has a clue.

[billvon 2,466]

>>The original constitution said that you had to return slaves to their
>> rightful owners. Gonna argue we should still do that?

>This is an asinine argument. It was not intended to be
>unconstitutional, however they did give us the right to amend.

So slavery is mentioned; but that is OK to abolish completely. Yet god is mentioned, and therefore the intent was to always preserve the relationship between god and country? I don't think you can use that line of reasoning. Mention in the Constitution is not sufficient to make it mandatory forever.

You said before that "Liberals have been trying for years to twist the words of our constitution, this time it won't work!" It has worked many times in the past. It got rid of slavery, established basic human rights, and protected us from the excesses of government. In fact, that "twisting of the constitution" that is the bill of rights is probably our single most important document in terms of keeping us free. And personally, I think that is a good thing, even if you call it twisted.

>Like those dang fanatical radicals that abolished slavery, in direct
> violation of the constitution? Those fools almost tore the country
> apart!

>Like it or not it did in fact tear the country apart!

Are you arguing that therefore it should not have been done? Changes often cause problems, but sometimes just have to be done.

[freeflir29 0]

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Like it or not it did in fact tear the country apart!

Uuuhhh....when was that?

[billvon 2,466]

>Seems like the majority opinion of law experts and scholars is that
>this ruling will be overturned fairly quickly.

I agree, but for a different reason. Any legal issues will quickly be submerged beneath the current "everything patriotic is good" theme we have going here. No politician will want to be seen opposing the plegde of allegiance, after all! People like it.

The legal oppositions to the decision aren't really defensible. The strongest condemnation that the dissenting judge had was that the issue was "miniscule," which is a weak argument at best, and that it would be hard to change.

[hanknotdan 0]

Seems pretty clear that the pledge is around to stay in its present form which is too bad. The pledge originally did not have the under God phrase and I believe it still served to remind us of our roots and encourage loyalty.

The problem I have with the pledge and led statements is that I believe that I should have the parental right to determine what religious instruction my children receive. I'd prefer they not grow up with an inferiority complex because they are not Israelites or believing that homosexuals should burn in hell for engaging in a consensual act. Now in my case, the simple phrase under God doesn't conflict with that as I happen to believe that we are just that. But I am sure that some parents disagree with that and I certainly can't ask for the right to determine how I indoctrinate my children if I don't grant it to others.

And while I see a problem with having teachers lead children in religious statements, I have never understood why people want it in schools. Kids can pray in schools(I know I did) and will still be able to. Kids can still show respect/deference to a god that they believe in. But should they be required to? Seems to me there's a benefit on one side, ie. I can determine what faith my children are raised in, and no downside to getting rid of it.

I just don't get why you want that there.(By you, I mean the people who want religious instruction in public schools) Why do you want someone else determining that?

[SBS 0]

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? --Matthew 12:25-26

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The point is that you don't actually know that he is working against himself. If he wrote it, and people follow it as if it is the say-all end-all of truth, and they believe that it is the roadmap to salvation, but in reality, it pulls you away from it, then satan, had he orchestrated the bible, would not be working against himself. You can not refute this question with a quote from the bible, it's just not possible...it presumes that the bible is correct and good, which is the very thing that is in question. As a matter of fact, using quotes from the bible that would directly address this issue such as the one above, make me question further.

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i believe after you hear my comments on it, you'd be wise to retract it, i simply ask you "do you pay taxes?" if the answer to this is yes, your statement is ludricrous at best, yet profound, but wishful, and youthful optism at best, rethink this my firend.

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I will go so far, since you demand the techincality, to rethink it and restate it as "The government does not have the right to impose its religious beliefs upon the people." That is as clear as day in the constitution, in giving freedom of religion to the citizens.

The problem with the statement "under god" is that it endorses a monotheistic view of religion, a liberty that is not bestowed upon our government, and is actually refused to our government in the constitution.

I heard people on the radio today referring to the people who passed this as "communistic". Seems to me that when a government, by endorsing monotheism, does not give its endorsement to atheistic or polytheistic views, it is closer to communism than a country that does not refer to any sort of religious beliefs.

I'm all for the pledge of allegiance having the words "under god", but by the choice of the people who receit it, and not to be required in an establishment directed by our government. If they want to do it at baseball games, Boy Scouts, whatever, that's ok with me, but for the government or any of its bodies to require that any of us acknowledge god is just not the freedom that founded this country.

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I agree, but for a different reason. Any legal issues will quickly be submerged beneath the current "everything patriotic is good" theme we have going here. No politician will want to be seen opposing the plegde of allegiance, after all! People like it.

----------------------

I still fail to see where anything has been said that is unpatriotic. I have not heard anyone say that the pledge of allegiance could not be said in school with the omittance of "under god".

I still wonder, if they tried to put Buddah on our money, what people would do, or if they tried to impliment a Taoist meditation in the mornings, etc. Ya think people might have a problem with that? The reason that people have a problem with these two words being taken out of the pledge is, for the most part, because it is what we believe. What if we didn't believe it? Would it be such a problem?

Until the day when it can be proven beyone a shadow of a doubt that: 1) God Exists, -and- 2) He is the one and only God, etc. etc. etc., this is pure speculation, just like Hinduism, Catholisism, Buddhism, Wicca, Athiesm, etc. etc. etc. and all other religions that have ever existed. One of them may be correct, but maybe none of them are. We don't know, and we have to, repeat HAVE TO, do is respect eachother and eachother's beliefs. When we don't, death and destruction is the inevitable result.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[freeflir29 0]

Whoa......BOOBIES