going low

[stefd 0]

If during a formation dive of say 6 jumpers and you go low part way through the dive let's say 7000ft you realise that no how large you make yourself that you will not make it back to the group.You have a visual of the group above you say 400ft and the agreed break off for the group is 4000ft and wave pull at 3000ft at what point of the dive would you start to track away yourself so that you are not going to be a hazard for the jumpers above you?

[rwieder 0]

Chances are you pull a stunt like this and you won't make that decision but once. But i guess if it had to happen, i would track like a big dog off of jump run, barrel roll and pull at 2K.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[NWFlyer 2]

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Chances are you pull a stunt like this and you won't make that decision but once. But i guess if it had to happen, i would track like a big dog off of jump run, barrel roll and pull at 2K.

So you're saying a jumper can only go low once then no one's going to want to jump with him/her again? Wow, that's, um... totally counter to my experience. Glad I'm not jumping at a place where newbies can only miss their slot once.

stefd... I recall some good threads on this recently and you'll get different viewpoints on it. This one was in the Relative Work forum and brought up some interesting opinions.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[stefd 0]

Thanks for directing me to that thread.Answers like that are far more helpful than than the previous one.Can't wait for the day when i have as much experience as he has!

[JYorkster 0]

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the agreed break off for the group is 4000ft

4000ft

Rock

[ladyskydiver 0]

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Chances are you pull a stunt like this and you won't make that decision but once. But i guess if it had to happen, i would track like a big dog off of jump run, barrel roll and pull at 2K.

[insert raised eyebrow here] Thank God all the upjumpers that I've jumped with - Roger Ponce, Oren, Boxman, Guy Wright, Max - never had that attitude. **shaking head**

To the original poster, you continue trying to get up to the formation until breakoff making sure to stay by the side of the formation - not underneath it - and within eye sight of the other jumpers so they know where you are. At the original breakoff altitude - i.e. 4000 - break off as planned. Yes, you'll be a little bit earlier than the others but they know what breakoff altitude is. Turn 180 from the formation and track for your life. Deploy at normal altitude.

Most jumps that I've been on have a plan for someone going low - sometimes if it's been a 4 way, we've agreed to go to the lowest person, most often it's been to stick with the plan and breakoff at normal altitude. Just make it a point as you're gaining your experience to find out what the others in the formation would like you to do - over and above continuing to try to get back to the formation.

Also, how are you trying to get back to the formation? Are you turning your head to the side to see the formation or are you staying in an arch? There are little pointers that people can give you to help you get back up to formation as well.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[riggerrob 558]

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Chances are you pull a stunt like this and you won't make that decision but once. But i guess if it had to happen, i would track like a big dog off of jump run, barrel roll and pull at 2K.

So you're saying a jumper can only go low once then no one's going to want to jump with him/her again? Wow, that's, um... totally counter to my experience. Glad I'm not jumping at a place where newbies can only miss their slot once.

stefd... I recall some good threads on this recently and you'll get different viewpoints on it. This one was in the Relative Work forum and brought up some interesting opinions.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Relax.
Most skydivers will allow a junior jumper to miss his/her slot/go low/etc. two or three times without sanction.

What scares skydivers is other jumpers opening at random altitudes.
The old-school drill - if you go irretrievably low - is to stay off to the side of the formation and wait until the PLANNED break-off altitude before you track and open.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Relax.
Most skydivers will allow a junior jumper to miss his/her slot/go low/etc. two or three times without sanction.

I know they will; I've been fortunate to jump with many of them who are willing to work with me on fall rate control and not dismiss me out of hand because I went low once.

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What scares skydivers is other jumpers opening at random altitudes.

Scares me, too.

However, from the way I read rwedier's response, he considered the very act of going low to be "pulling a stunt." Going low happens sometimes; having a plan to deal with it is smart skydiving, and I think that's what the original poster was trying to figure out.

[rwieder 0]

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from the way I read rwedier's <===== rwieder (sp) response, he considered the very act of going low to be "pulling a stunt."

Well, that's what it is.

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Going low happens sometimes; having a plan to deal with it is smart skydiving, and I think that's what the original poster was trying to figure out.

I merely relayed to the poster what i'd personally do. I was taught by some of the best formation skydivers in our state, and i was always told that going low would not be tolerated, (i mentioned nothing about getting into your slot) everyone WILL know where everyone else is at breakoff altitude. That said, "IF" i went low in this situation i'd do as i said i would. Not everyone has the same contingency plan as i do. The poster asked a question and i answered it. Damn flamers. Just not happy unless they can say something deragatory about someone. *Shakes head in sadness*

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[NWFlyer 2]

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everyone WILL know where everyone else is at breakoff altitude.

So how does "tracking like a big dog off of jump run" help everyone else in the formation know where you are? Seems that might make it more difficult for people to find you at breakoff.

Not a flame, I'm genuinely curious, because that goes counter to what I was taught (try to get back up and if you can't, stay close, stay visible, stay just off the edge of the formation so everyone knows where you are when they're counting bodies at breakoff).

We'll have to agree to disagree that going low = pulling a stunt. If I agreed with you then I should have quit this sport months ago, because I'm just not that good and I still occasionally "pull that stunt."

[rwieder 0]

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So how does "tracking like a big dog off of jump run" help everyone else in the formation know where you are? Seems that might make it more difficult for people to find you at breakoff.

One of the golden rules of skydiving, "Always have a backup plan" This is generally discussed in the dirt dive.

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Not a flame, I'm genuinely curious, because that goes counter to what I was taught (try to get back up and if you can't, stay close, stay visible, stay just off the edge of the formation so everyone knows where you are when they're counting bodies at breakoff)

This works as well. I never said there isn't but one way to do it, did i? You count bodies if you want to, it's instinctual for me. That said, i will never become complacent.

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We'll have to agree to disagree that going low = pulling a stunt. If I agreed with you then I should have quit this sport months ago, because I'm just not that good and I still occasionally "pull that stunt."

After 210 jumps, you may want to consider quitting if your still going low. Either that or do some drills with another jumper before doing anything bigger than a 4 way.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[ladyskydiver 0]

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After 210 jumps, you may want to consider quitting if your still going low. Either that or do some drills with another jumper before doing anything bigger than a 4 way.

**shaking head** And at 700 jumps you may want to get off the skygod wagon.

Guess what? Sometimes shit happens. I've seen someone with more jumps than you pooch a formation by going low AND NEVER MAKE IT BACK TO THE FORMATION. Thank God they didn't quit the sport.

Man...must be nice to be perfect and never once go low on or pooch a formation. **shaking head**

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[rwieder 0]

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**shaking head** And at 700 jumps you may want to get off the skygod wagon.

I guess i owe beer! I've never been accused of being a SkyGod before! These SkyGods have a wagon? Finally i've reached the pinnacle.

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AND NEVER MAKE IT BACK TO THE FORMATION.

Would you mind not "shouting?"

Cora: I won't be litigating with you further, so don't think i'm rude if i don't get in a pissing match with you. Say what you want, i don't care.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[pilotdave 0]

My list of DZs not to visit is growing...

I understand kicking someone off a 40 way for going low more than once or twice... but a 6 way fun jump? Real friendly...

Dave

[rwieder 0]

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My list of DZs not to visit is growing...

Man, you snow birds are sensative! Buck up man, have a stiff upper lip.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[PhreeZone 15]

Might want to go tear into some of the jumpers from the last 300 way since alot went low and eventually got back up. Look at the numbers of them that tossed tshirts on to get more drag once they realised the formation was going slower.

Going low happens to even the best skydivers. Don't feel bad if you go low, work to correct it or hang out till the normal break altitude then split as planned. The barrel roll is debateable since I've seen video of freefliers trying the roll and even in slow motion on play back you can't tell if there is someone there or not if they are more then 100-200 feet away because they roll so fast. To make the roll worth it, it takes time and practice to roll and still maintain your heading, to look around and identify anyone in your sector and to avoid them. If it was such a great idea they will be doing it on the 400 ways in Feb, see if they do.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Samurai136 0]

Ahem

Back on topic...

1. If you are low on any formation and cannot make it back up, you should follow the plan. In this case the plan is to break off at 4000'. You will reach 4000' before the group but you'll be a few seconds further out on your track when the rest of the formation starts tracking.

2. Tell us why you're going low. There are several reason from having a naturally faster fall rate (solution: wear a suit with more drag) to diving at the formation and not stopping soon enough.

If you find yourself a few hudred feet below the formation, unable to get back up, you have succeeded in matching the formation's fall rate. This usually indicates that you attempted to dive at the formation, generated a good amount of momentum and recognized a bit too late that you needed to start slowing down to match the formation.

Remember the "sight picture" you had when you first realized you needed to slow down. Next time start slowing down before you get to to that sight picture. In addition, when you are low on a formation, if you are looking up at it you are actually spilling air (increasing fall rate) and hindering your ability to get back up to the formation.

All flying (from center point 360 turns to diving at the formation) is a series of three moves.
Start- Coast- Stop.

A world champion skydiver once told me that it takes more work/ energy to stop a move than it does to start a move in free fall.

Hope this helps,

Blue Skies, Happy New Year!

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[thegreekone 0]

**shaking head** And at 700 jumps you may want to get off the skygod wagon.***

irony....kewl.

[rwieder 0]

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Might want to go tear into some of the jumpers from the last 300 way since alot went low and eventually got back up.

Not my job, and i'm not concerned about it, but thanks Phree!

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[brits17 0]

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**shaking head** And at 700 jumps you may want to get off the skygod wagon.

I find it interesting that he jumps at Skydive Houston and his jump numbers are increasing. I'm there every weekend and haven't seen him in over 2 years. Just take this into consideration when reading Richard's posts

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[rwieder 0]

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find it interesting that he jumps at Skydive Houston and his jump numbers are increasing. I'm there every weekend and haven't seen him in over 2 years. Just take this into consideration when reading Richard's posts

I find it interesting that i was jumping at that DZ long before you even showed up there, in fact you dissapeared for i don't know how long, went to the Army and told me you were going to join the Golden Knights. What happened to that?? SDH isn't the only DZ in the world, as you know. No matter where i jump SDH is home for me. That said, last time i was at SDSM, SDAL & SDA you wasn't. Just take that into consideration when reading Brit's posts.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[stefd 0]

I have only recently started jumping with groups larger than 3 or 4 and have no problems with these as we can stay linked as we exit.Since i have been with a couple of larger groups i found the problem as you mention that on exit i get seperated and have to swoop down a little and am not quite slowing down enough and this is taking me slightly past the group, but as they are linked there fall rate is slower.As for trying to rejoin the group i have my body dearched as if being over a large beachball with my head on on side looking at the group.

I know the reason why i go low ( but thank you) and was just seeking advice.I should obviously speak to my instructors and shall when i am next at Langar.

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[brits17 0]

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I find it interesting that i was jumping at that DZ long before you even showed up there, in fact you dissapeared for i don't know how long, went to the Army and told me you were going to join the Golden Knights. What happened to that??

Hehe Chill dude. It was back in 2002, over 3 years ago. I was gone for 7 months. I tore medial miniscus in my left knee, badly in fact, and thus the end of my military career.

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SDH isn't the only DZ in the world, as you know. No matter where i jump SDH is home for me. That said, last time i was at SDSM, SDAL & SDA you wasn't. Just take that into consideration when reading Brit's posts.

Yes, please do. You don't need to defend yourself for all these folks here Goper. They already see your expertise advice written in previous posts.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[rwieder 0]

I showed you no dissrespect. You chose to dissrespect me, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from such veiled verbal attacks. That is unless you wish to be treated in the same respect in with what you give others.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[skybytch 259]

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But i guess if it had to happen, i would track like a big dog off of jump run, barrel roll and pull at 2K.

I wouldn't. Going low is understandable, forgivable and fixable. Not "diving the plan" by tracking off mid-skydive creates a hazard to everyone else in the air with you (not just those on your jump, but also potentially those in the groups that preceded and followed your group out of the aircraft).

As others have said - if you find yourself low keep trying to get back up, making sure you never get under the formation, until break off altitude and then track away 180 degrees from the center of the formation. Once you're back on the ground, figure out what caused you to go low and either fix the problem (ie add drag so you fall slower) for the next jump or go practice bleeding off speed on your approach so you don't overshoot next time.