Cloud Jumping

[freeflir29 0]

Just an article I found. Whats the peanut gallery opinion?
A Civil Aviation Safety Authority proposal to allow skydivers to pass through clouds has been met with disbelief by some pilots.
Trevor Wright, who runs an aviation business in Boort in country Victoria, said allowing skydivers to jump through cloud would increase the likelihood of collisions between skydivers and aircraft.
Mr Wright said skydiving companies were still regarded as private rather than commercial operations by CASA, and therefore not subject to as stringent safety rules.
"This puts the passengers going up in the planes for the skydive at greater risk, because flying in cloudy conditions can be dangerous and requires more skill from the pilots, who are often inexperienced," he said.
Also concerned about the rule change was Ken Howard, chief pilot of Aqua Airlines in Cairns, who said many pilots in the area, which is popular with skydivers, had reported near misses with parachutists, even on clear days.
"Jumping above cloud, or in cloud, is much more dangerous for all concerned. There's going to be an accident somewhere," Mr Howard said.
Skydiving through cloud is banned in Australia and many other leading aviation countries, except New Zealand.
But CASA recently released a Notice of Proposed Rule Making, in which it said it had found methods to calculate the risk of a collision between a skydiver and an aircraft in any situation.
CASA's assistant director of aviation safety standards, Richard Yates, said skydivers would have to obtain written permission from the authority before each descent in cloudy conditions.
Permission would be denied whenever the risk probability could not be adequately calculated, Mr Yates said in the foreword to the NPRM.
In the document, CASA admitted it was initially sceptical of the Australian Parachute Federation's request to review the rule on descent through cloud. But during its research of the few documented cases of skydiver-aircraft collisions, CASA concluded that regardless of cloud, it would be impossible for skydivers and pilots to avoid a crash once on a collision course because of the speeds involved.
It said freefalling skydivers, travelling between 120 to 200 knots, would usually appear in a position 45 degrees above the horizon, and out of the pilot's view.
APF president Claude Gillard was confident the safety procedures outlined by CASA made jumping in cloudy conditions, as safe, if not safer, than a normal skydive.
Mr Gillard said there would always be a person stationed at the drop zone keeping an eye out for other aircraft and that this person would be in constant radio contact with the pilot of the skydiving plane.
He said the current rules preventing descent in cloud, meant operators were losing up to 20 per cent of "jump time".
"The cab driver said... he recognized my girly by the back of her head" -Beasty Boys
Clay

[nimbus 0]

I did my first AFF jump through a cloud!
I think my dz is applying for registration to allow this.... there's rarely any other aircraft in the dz area other than the jump plane.
From what I've heard, everyone seems to love going through clouds, as long as they're not too thick, stormy etc...
little fluffy clouds in big blue skies...
larissa

[Zennie 0]

I used to like going through cl... industrial haze... until I realized something. You can't see above or below, which means you don't know if you're heading for someone dumping below you or dumping into someone above you.
But even if you're under canopy in a clo...industrial haze... then you have to worry about colliding with someone else under canopy because it's impossible to see someone else until they're right on top of you.
Now I try to avoid 'em and front riser the heck out if I'm under canopy in one.
--------
Zennie
"I know the pieces fit. 'Cause I watched them fall away..."
--Tool

[nimbus 0]

I don't like it myself for those safety reasons, but as an experience in itself it was great... the clouds the day I did my first jump were thin and high enough that my canopy opened underneath them.... though I love looking down on the tops of clouds from a commercial airliner..

[Viking 0]

I would love to jump through a cloud that should get my heart going watching something come up at me at 150mph!!!!
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet

[skyhawk 2]

we jump through clouds all the time but there are a number of facters involved. We are not an airport, the only plane that should be in the area is the jump plane. We dont jump when it is excessivly windy or the clouds are storm clouds. Also the bottom of the clouds must be no less than 4000ft i think it might be a little higher.
My most memorable jump was a cloud jump i exited and looked around it was suset so below was a landscape of mountanious clouds part of which was red in colour, i will never forget that

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I've jumped through Ind. haze loads of times - my friend did his first 2 freefalls in solid 'haze'. I love it - it gives you a real feeling of speed.
Live to pull and pull to live

[Dutchboy 0]

Until the USPA comes out with an instrument rating for skydivers, and wants to equip all of us with transponders, and 2-way radios (what the hell, how about TCAS too), I'll stay out of the clouds.
Popping through a thin cloud isn't dangerous (or even illegal). Jumping at a new DZ without being able to see the ground till your under canopy is a bit scary.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[mouth 0]

I've jumped in some pretty thick industrial haze with storms mixed in for good measure. I most likely didn't have enough good sense to be scared except when tracking and I saw my shadow coming up at me. I freaked out as my mind raced to figure where everyone was and why this was happening. I suddenly broke through and realized it was my shadow and started laughing hysterically as I pitched.
Obviously a high adrenalyn jump....

[dove 0]

In general I think clouds are really fun to play around under canopy and sometimes fun to go through during freefall when they are not too thick. But on a recent jump VERY thick - er - HAZE moved in underneath us and we went into it around 5K. At breakoff (4,500 for freeflying 3-way) we broke off and tracked in what seemed like the right direction but it was hard to tell cause the haze was VERY thick! And I did not want to pull when I could see absolutely NOTHING above me. Didn't come out of it till low - just under 3,000. At that point I could see I was very close to another jumper so had to turn a little more and track. As my hard deck alarm was SCREAMING in my head I finally had clearance to pull. Not a good time! Just my experience. Be safe folks! But for an intentional hop-n-pop from altitude, clouds are what MAKE the jump! Swooping down and dragging your toes through a tall stack or going along the caverns and sweeping your fingers into the cloud - smearing it across the sky! Oh, why do I have to be grounded?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?
dove

[Jumperpaula 0]

So is the haze factor turning into a personal choice or it's still a safety issue?
My old DZ would NOT FLY in clouds, my new one will fly and leave it up to the jumper to make the load. Is the new one disregarding safety or letting the customer choose their circumstances?
Fly Your Slot !

[Dutchboy 0]

That reminds me of something I noticed last weekend. I was flying up to Chatanooga, TN on an instrument flight plan. I was talking to ATC because I was flying IFR, and it was instrument conditions. I was shocked to hear pilots from a local DZ (you can guess which one!) telling ATC they had jumpers away.
The visibility was less than 2 miles in haze on the ground, worse in the air. You couldn't see shit through that, yet some greedy DZO was dropping King Air loads.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[flyingferret 0]

Dove,
I agree with you. Jumping through thick clouds is totally different than punching a thin layer. Yeah, I have punched a couple layers, but nothing more than a second or two of freefall time, and it blew in under us, and would have been almost impossible to miss. I would rather pop a small cloud on a clear day, than jump on a hazy day. Sure it is not clouds, but a lot of times haze is worse. Especially toward sunset you get slant-line visibility when pilots cannot see to other altitudes through haze.
But my personal favorite is a hop n pop at 11K to just fly around the clouds, swoop em, hook em, run canyons, etc. I usually never go inside them, but it is so much fun. I seem to be the only one on my DZ who likes this. But then again, I want to try CReW, so maybe I am a bit wierd. Brew Ones
Malachi

[Slink 0]

I have no clue about this but don't pilots get some kind of chart,book, flight briefing that says "dropzone...people falling in the sky at 120 mph or faster"? When I see a strange plane flying around the dropzone I think to myself " great! not only do I need to look out for gliders but now I'm going to crash through this asshole's wing. As a student a good arch means head up...not looking for joy flyers...or does that come later?

[Brokeneagle 0]

I used to think dropzones would be relatively safe for jumpers since they supposedly had radio contact with approaching aircraft in the area.... until our experience with a DZ having a major boogie not answering their radio--
Brokeneagle.
I'm really very gentle, no matter what my kung-fu teacher says...

[crewdog 0]

Jumping into Industrial hase is a blast. It's feeling of total freedom.

[Slink 0]

You wouldn't happened to know a Russ Velsor ,Pilot from Cornwall, NY would you?

[Bearcat 0]

First, jumping through clouds is totally illegal as far as the FAA goes. Second, airspace at any DZ is not off limits to other non-DZ aircraft as most jumpers think. Any VFR plane can fly straight thru and never talk to anyone, and most of you have probably seen this... Now is that smart? Hell no, but it happens everyday.
Bear

[Jumperpaula 0]

One old time jumper (crazy ass guy) once told me that the likelyhood of hitting an aircraft in freefall is virtually impossible.
Not that I myself wanna be the first one to find out, but with only one documented case on record (and the skydiver lived, everone on the plane died) Old timer Rick told me "If you tried to jump out at the exact right time, and hit a plane, it would be virtually impossible"
Now we've seen Joe Jennings do it, but look what special equipment and circumstances it took (massive drouge on the plane). And exception to the formation load accident which clouds had nothing to do with...
So, for the sake of discussion with some years in this sport under our belts and an already crowded sky, are we really at risk to hit an aircraft in freefall? Should we be held to the same requirements as VFR pilots?
Fly Your Slot !

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Should we be held to the same requirements as VFR pilots?

Since we're kicking this around for discussion, here's my take....
If you're talking about 1 jumper and one airplane, yeah I'd say the odds are remote. But multiple jumpers and one aircraft? Especially some of the big ways we do at our DZ? I dunno. Plus we seem to get some bozo who wants to circle/buzz our DZ at least once or twice a weekend. Now add to that everyone converging toward the same area under canopy.
In any event, my concern with clouds has more to do with colliding with other jumpers than aircraft.
If we started allowing cloud-busting wholesale I think you'd start seeing a lot more freefall/canopy collisions. I think you'd also probably see more injuries from people screwing up when the have to land out.
--------
Zennie
"I know the pieces fit. 'Cause I watched them fall away..."
--Tool

[Dutchboy 0]

Some of the airports are listed on the sectional charts as having a dropzone. They are indicated by a parachute symbol by the airport. These are not very accurate at all. I landed at an airport with this symbol and asked where the DZ was. They told me they hadn't jumped at that airport since the 70's.
The problem is that the airport manager must file a permanent NOTAM (notice to airmen) about jumping for this symbol to show up. Now it is on the VFR charts which is lovely. It isn't mentioned to any pilot flying to that airport (such as IFR pilots), not so lovely. Last I knew the folks at Skydive Atlanta didn't have a permanent NOTAM, and therefore no symbol, and they thought it was better because ever pilot going to that airport would hear about it.
So keep your eyes open. You can't really blame the pilot on a VFR cross country for not knowing about your parachuting activities, especially if your jump pilot doesn't communicate on the local traffic frequency (his bad!). It is not unusual for a pilot to fly from one airport to the next and fly directly over the center of each airport. Unless he has flight following, which is not required, and not allways available to him, he might have no clue that you are falling all around him.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[riggerrob 558]

My most memorable jump was between thunderclouds and my scariest jump was on a clear day.

Visibility is not the question. The question is whether other pilots are paying attention? Most of the time the answer is NO!
Sure jumping through clouds is illegal, but the reason it is illegal is because an air traffic controller screwed up back in the 1960s! Come on folks, we have learned a lot since then. I trust GPS far more than I trust Mark I eye balls.
My most memorable jump was from 19,000' out of a Dornier 228, with a tandem student, but no drogue. We were hypoxic by the time I carried him the length of the cabin. Once in freefall, we had the most gorgeous view of towering purple and gold cumulo-nimbus clouds as we fell through a cloud canyon. Wow! Makes you believe in God!
My scariest jump was on a clear day. My tandem exited a Cessna near Hemet, California and the next thing I knew, I was watching a Brasilia pass close behind my cameraman! Shortly after that, ATC chewed out the Brasilia pilot for starting his descent too soon.
Another time we directly over top of Hemet Ryan Airfield, when the pilot said we were cleared to drop. I opened the door and stared at a Bonanza just below us and just to the right. If we had exited when cleared, we would have just missed the Bonanza's left wing tip! So much for being on flight-following or exiting over a long-standing DZ that is marked on the charts.
Canadian air traffic controllers may be good at separating skydivers from other traffic, but the task is impossible in skies as crowded as Southern California.
The best way to chase wandering pilots away from an active DZ is to grab a hand held radio and announce to all the world that "some idiot in a blue and white Citabria is flying between jumpers and the plane they just exited."
In conclusion, I trust GPS far more than I trust eyeballs and I would jump through clouds most days if it were legal. The only limit I would impose is that the sky be clear between opening altitude and landing.

[Zennie 0]

Quote

I trust GPS far more than I trust Mark I eye balls.

Our DZO is also a damn good jump pilot who uses GPS and we've still had occasion where we had a baaad spot. GPS is not a cure-all.

Quote

The only limit I would impose is that the sky be clear between opening altitude and landing.

Well I'm glad you agree with me on that part of the problem.
--------
Zennie
"I know the pieces fit. 'Cause I watched them fall away..."
--Tool

[bbbilly14 0]

Quote

The only limit I would impose is that the sky be clear between opening altitude and landing.

Pay attention to where the clouds start on the way to altitude. They will more than likely end there on the way down. If you know they are at 3500 ft. on the way up, plan to pull no higher than 3000, or maybe 2500 on the way down. If that isn't something you can handle (and I personally won't) don't jump. Be "That Guy" or "That Girl" on the airplane who stays on and lands. Live, and let others live!
Don't fuck around in a cloud, and for God's sake, don't open in one!
That's my .02, or maybe more like .04, but it's my opinion.
Say what you will.
Love,
Billy
"Light a candle for the sinners---Set the world on fire!"
Marilyn Manson

[freeflir29 0]

OK...I have something to add to my own post from this weekend. I was at a DZ in North Carolina. It was pretty cloudy all weekend. I went up on the #2 Otter load on Saturday. I paid good attention to the cloud height on the way up. About 3,000 ft. No problem. I normally pull at 3K but I dont mind going to 2K if it is for safety reasons. It just so happened that I was to be 1st out on the second pass. The first pass went out (including a GK guy and Skymonkeyone) I move back to the door and close it. Start taking a look around and can't see a damn thing. Nothing but solid clouds below. I hadn't jumped at this DZ in a year and they had changed pilots. When I was there last it was common practice for the pilot to turn the green light on about 1 min out. The light comes on, I open the door. Can't see shit. I give it about 30-45 sec and say bye to the rest of the load. I wasn't worried cause I know all the outs and have plenty of experience at this DZ plus my canopy isn't really the ground hungry type. I do some head down and a few transitions to sit/stand. I get to about 5K and see the clouds coming so I get flat and stupid. Lock onto the alti and fall from 4500 until about 3K where a come through the cloud. Give it another 500 Ft for safety seperation and dump. It was what we call a Fugawe opening. As in "Where the Fuck Are we?" Took a couple seconds to get my bearings and then I realized that I was a bit long. Just at the end of the runway. So I leave the breaks stowed and get over the runway as fast as possible to get any thermals present. I made it back with enough alti for a nice hard 90 deg riser turn to final. The next two groups behind me made it no problem. I think they pulled higher than 2.5K. Well, the rest of the stick ended up landing pretty far off and scaring the crap out of some horses. This could have been avoided had the pilot communicated with me. The old pilot there has yelled "Get the F$%ck Out!" at me on several occasions. He is a damn good pilot and flies military contract air drops all the time. Usually at night and not always in pretty weather. Every time that ever happened my spot was perfect! If I had gotten out on this load when the light first came on it would have been a very nice spot. I just didn't know what this guy was doing. I used to control airspace professionally in the military. It was nothing to have 4 or 5 fighter aircraft buzzing around as well as a couple helicopters and throw in some artillery shells for good measure. With good positive control of airspace and making sure that people follow the rules you shouldn't have problems.
P.S. DZ Disclaimer: After that load they went on weather hold.........Lets hope for blue skies next weekend!
"The cab driver said... he recognized my girly by the back of her head" -Beasty Boys
Clay