Hookin aint good for health yall

[Viking 0]

Along with everyone in the loading area at Elsinore today i saw a guy do a 180 hook into the ground just next to the swoop pond. The "thud" could be heard in the loading area. I was looking through my 300mm lens at the time, and got more than i wanted to see. I didn't take the picture, i don't want to take pictures of stuff like that. I have no info on the jumper or his condition as i am not a regular jumper there. LtDiver, and Albatross were there, they can probly give more details. This is the second time in a month i have seen this with my own eyes. Man i don't think i will be down sizing or doing aggresive landings anytime soon.
You guys that do this kind of stuff please be careful.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver

[ramon 0]

The main problem with the sport is that a device intended to save the life of a pilot (round or large square) has transformed into another flying device.
But non-pilots are flying them (disclaimer, I know of a jump pilot wuffo that strapped a on a rig with a stilletto in it and did an illegal jump and landing successfully). When they have these flying canopies on the market available to anyone, that can and will maim you with an error, (no touch and goes with a canopy only digging your brakes until accelerated stall) we have a recipe for lots of injuries.
Talk to any old timer...they used to hook paracommanders (no I can't imagine what it looked like) but typical injuries were bruises, broken ankles...but they lived.
We are close to having an unregulated extreme flying sport, but skydivers are very protectful of their freedom...so what do you do..
peace
ramon

[Iflyme 0]

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Man i don't think i will be down sizing or doing aggresive landings anytime soon.

You are wise, my young Viking... no point pounding in under a good canopy ... I know I said in an earlier thread that I -- with 133 jumps -- would not give advice, but her it comes: don't be in a hurry to downsize!!!!! I'm stayin' under 210 feet of pasrachute loaded at 1:1 for a LONG time...
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[rgoper 0]

....this is terrible news, my heart is with the jumper who is injured. everytime this happens, it just "stabs" me in the heart. one thing i think we all need to think about, is when we all first initially started sky diving, they made damn sure we could do rw, track away, deploy our mains and save our lives. i don't know about you guys/gal, but i don't know NEAR enough to even attempt a "high perfromance" landing. i think canopy skills should be more emphacized in the initial training. that in conjunction with "smaller is keweler" thats burns me up. i know of a few guys who can do these types of landings, but they "know" what ther're doing, training is the "key" element we're missing here. just my .02 USD. be safe guys/gals "low ground turns kill" i'm out...........
Richard
"Well I'm Screaming For Vengeance"
Judas Priest

[PhreeZone 15]

Richard... if thats true why are you jumping a Hornet? Or even over a 1:1 loading... I'm thinking you are at like a 1.4 loading now. THats way more then enough speed in a straight in, no risers approach to seriously maim or kill. All of that is the precursor to a "High proformance" landing. Its not all about "training" its about training and experience. Some times experience is a broken bone or other times its death. Other times experience is enough to tell you not to try that again or other times its tells you that you could do better. A "High proformance landing" is'nt a bad thing and knowing how to properly do one could save your life....
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[flyinryan 0]

The thud is terible. When I was in Eloy over spring break I watched (from the bleachers) some guy hook into the ground. He broke is tibbia (sp?) and people were saying he could not remember if he hooked it or not. The thud was the worst part though....fortunatly the guy lived. Kinda makes you take a step back and relize that what we are doing is only as safe as you make it.

[AggieDave 6]

Yeah, a Hornet at 1.4 can get exciting. When I was jumping a Hornet 190, I had a freaky landing where due to my stupidity I came in quite a bit faster then I was used too (semi-hook turn, done to pull back into the wind, I know: stupid...) and hit hard enough to leave some good bruises. Luckily my good PLFing came in and I had a picture perfect PLF: feet, knees, face and skid...I had to lay there for a few seconds to shake it off. Luckily for me, no real harm done.
The day of my third jump I watched a guy with 80 jumps freak and do the same sort of hook turn, to get down wind when he realized he wasn't, but it was a much more aggressive hook then mine was. He hit just about the same time his canopy did. I watched it happen, heard the thud standing about 60 yards away. Scared the agressive canopy flying out that student (me), I can tell you for sure. Will I eventually get to the point where I fly a high performance canopy and do those high speed landings and such? Sure, someday, I'm sure, just knowing my personality. As for now? I'm slowly getting more aggressive (depending on what I'm flying...that PD210 wasn't flown like that ), but slowly, no need to ruin my life with a bounce.
"Homer Simpson, smiling politely."

[skymedic 0]

hey...let em keep doing it...I need the work(yeah right)...thing about hookin is you can do it a thousand times right...then tha one time you hook it 20 feet to low...and bang....
marc
"I have no fear of falling, I just hate hitting the ground"-The Badlees...

[bbarnhouse 0]

Intersting that I had a conversation just last evening about our AFF program. Yes we teach folks the basics on survival. Even in our coaching jumps we mainly focus on the "freefall".
What is happening now is that we have folks that can land their canopy perhaps 80% of the time without getting hurt. (Just a number guys don't get your tails in a knot). But they haven't learned to let their canopies fly on landing. No problem they're still landing em ok. Then they think ok Im ready for a smaller canopy....UG! Our AFF program does not adequatly address canopy flying and landings. IMHO. I am ready to down size my canopy as I'm not even at a 1:1 ratio. I have made arrangements to have a coach through this entire process. Yes even though I have a lot of jumps, I can be more proficient in my canopy skills. Yes I may look like a geek with a radio on my head if it comes to that, but the end result is that I will be a better skydiver for having invested in more training and it may just save my life!
Do I have issues with my landing now? Certainly! Just like most folks. So, I'm choosing to educate myself further, I'm certainly looking forward to the challenge. "Just cause I have a "C" license doesn't mean I know everything! " LMAO ( Clay you da bomb dude!)
Cheers!
B
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[Viking 0]

ya i am probly gonna get myself a new hornet loaded at 1.1 and learn the shit out of it. Then think about downsizing.
I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver

[Iflyme 0]

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do the same sort of hook turn, to get down wind when he realized he wasn't

Explain please... why would you hook it to go downwind ... could it be he wanted to face *into* the wind?
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[Zennie 0]

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tha one time you hook it 20 feet to low

Not that I'm a hook turn God or anything. But it generally doesn't work that way.
Most of the hook turn accidents I've read and heard about can roughly fall into three categories:
1. Newbies not fully understanding the flight characteristics of their canopy (and not realistically assessing their own flying skills) and starting to hook way too low & aggressively.
2. Experienced hook turners trying a new canopy and not easing into it.
3. Bizzarre.
We have a crew of old school RW jumpers at our DZ who still toggle hook and it scares the bejesus out of me every time I see it. But as far as front riser hooks go, if you start a hook too low you can bail out of it... you just won't get the swoop you wanted or you may not wind up taking the line you planned.
The stuff that spooks me are the third category incidents. We've had two canopy collapses in the past year now. We know Lisa Gallagher's was due to rotors, but I haven't heard whether that was also a factor in the recent Virginia incident.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[Zennie 0]

Actually I should probably add a fourth category in there now that I think about it. And this one accounts for a lot of the low turn incidents...
4. People getting into a "box-in" situation, whether it be obstacles, wind or something else, and opting to do a hard turn low rather than either a braked turn or taking your lumps with the wind/obstacles.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[rgoper 0]

.........i've downsized wisely, not to say i haven't made any mistakes. i've downsized from a 280-230-210-190-now a 170, putting adaquate jumps on each canopy, and as i said in my previous post, i don't have the experience to even attempt a "high performance landing" i stood each canopy up i've flown and learned a lot of flight charistics before downsizing to each one. my ultimate goal is of course to learn, and perform "high performance landings" but i'm doing it in baby steps. i sought the counsil of a learned colleague each time before downsizing. i don't reccomend everyone doing as i do, but whatever you do, just do it safely! with my current canopy, i have just 3 flights on it, and it has done nothing out of the ordinary so far except glide a lot more on landing, which is what i was looking for. and i don't believe a 1.4-1.6 wing is too high as long as you don't do anything silly. :)
Richard
"All Debts Are Paid Baby"
Snoop Doggy Dog"

[AggieDave 6]

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could it be he wanted to face *into* the wind?

Right, sorry, what I meant to say is he was going down wind and freaked....
"Homer Simpson, smiling politely."

[mraviation1 0]

I think everyone learns at different rates and speeds, I have seen very good jumpers with 200 jumps and very unsafe jumpers with thousands of jumps. Everyone needs to learn at there own rate and do what you think is best for you at the time. Use people that have been there, done that in the sport. If you want to learn high performace canony flight and landing dig into it and learn from others don't be the ginny pig it WILL kill you, or seriously injury you if you are lucky.
Blue skies, black panties

[LittleJumper 0]

and i was a fool to think about trying hook turns at such an early stage in the sport. What was I thinking?? I'm sorry to hear about the dude.
What you "think" you cannot do ...you CAN if you "think" about it

[flyhi 24]

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i don't know NEAR enough to even attempt a "high perfromance" landing.

and then:

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Well I'm Screaming For Vengeance

If you get the Vengeance, you better know how to do the high performance landing. Interesting paradox, or keen insight into the duality of mankind... We leave it to the discerning individual.
"Marge, I'm coming to bed & I've been watching women's volleyball on ESPN."

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Sorry, nothing to do with the thread, just noticed how many people have quotes from Homer as they're sigs.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or loose, its how drunk you get.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Hook Turns
I got these questions a while back;
> When you are doing hook turns what are you thinking
> about on your
> approach?
Adjusting my approach speed and altitude to set up for the hook, identifying all the canopies in the air w/ me by type, location, pilot, and predicting their flight paths for the time that I could have a conflict w/ them, Go/No-Go decisions as I set up, each point in the sky I have to get a mental "Go" to continue w/ the hook.
At the altitude you actually go inverted?
(I don’t go inverted), Adjusting the rate of the turn, checking on the traffic that may be potential conflict, feeling where the canopy is and how much energy is stored in it.
> As you are hanging
> on the front risers?
Checking on the traffic in the immediate area, feeling the rate of riser pressure increases, feeling the recovery are and w/ those 2, timing the amount of "double-fronts" I need to complete the landing w/ the most efficiency
When you are flying straight
> down where are you
> looking> Straight down? 45 degrees in front??
Mainly forward, but left and/or right to keep track of traffic if necessary.
I'm
> trying to understand
> the thought process..
>
I don't have to think what should I think about, it is a mental "flow", smoothly transitioning from perception to perception, several at a time, with usually the thoughts overlapping. The actual landing is mainly by reflex, same set of variables every time, same set of responses to those variables, with a large percentage of my focus going to identifying the unexpected and dealing with those issues. The hook turn isn't going to hurt me, the bird flying in front of me, the dog running out into the landing area, the pilot doing something they shouldn't is my main concern, and that is what I spend most of my focus on. Usually, nothing unexpected happens and the actual landing doesn't take much thought to do, so that when something does happen, I have the brainpower available and ready to act to handle the unexpected. The same way flying an airplane. It isn't very hard, but turn off the engine and then see what happens. In pilot training, they train you to fly, then really focus on how to handle emergencies. So for the most part, flying is pretty easy, because you can handle flying it when everything is hitting the fan, so with everything working, it isn't that difficult. Glider pilots get one shot at landing, if they overshoot or come up short, that's it, they miss. If you take an experienced glider pilot and put him in an airplane and tell him to land, it will be extremely easy for him. No pressure. He can miss the runway a bunch of times, and all he has to do is hit the throttle and try again. To him, the throttle is a luxury that he isn't used to. If the engine quits on him, he simply reverts back to what he is used to doing, landing w/o the engine, no big deal.
So train for when things are not going right and be comfortable in that realm, then do it the easy way. So that when it gets tough, it is no big deal.
People that say I am bound to get hurt do not realize that the landing for me is quite easy and that I am fully prepared to deal w/ the unknown. That isn't to say that I have thought of every possible contingency and could never possibly get hurt, but my level of risk is the same as or less than someone that flies at a much lower wing loading and does straight-in approaches. I am ready to deal w/ the unknowns at least as well as the people that are certain I will be injured landing the way I do.
I read books on Crew Resource Management, flight discipline, I study accidents, aircraft, car, canopy, anything. The thought process and mistakes that lead to canopy accidents are not specific to canopys. Before jumping a new gear set-up, I review what is different, what problems those differences those could cause, how to prevent those problems from arising and how to deal w/ them if they arise anyway. I evaluate the risks and determine if they are acceptable. This process is either not done or poorly done by newer jumpers simply because they do not have the experience, and they tend to not listen to the more experienced canopy pilots that could help them with their risk management.
This process is not visible and it appears to people that I do things, “shooting from the hip”. To jumpers that have no intentions of pushing their limits flying their canopy, I appear reckless. To jumpers that want to push their limits, I appear to simply go and do it, without any preparation or forethought and they think this is they way to go.
How many people have pulled out their hook knife on opening, just for the training value? How many people have practiced dropping a toggle to simulate the line breaking and transitioning to rear risers? I have and I continue to “what if” scenarios and solutions to deal with the unexpected.
I stay current on my canopy and I self-critique every landing. I set a high standard for what I expect from myself for every canopy flight and I accept no excuses for poor performance. I stay in shape.
This sport is full of self-proclaimed experts. The true experts realize that they don’t know it all. They continually look to improve and don’t let their ego get in the way of admitting they are wrong. They update their thought processes as either the right or a new way of doing things are discovered.
This is a passage from one of my favorite books:
“The following spring, Gill returned to the Black Hills, where the Needles are located, to attempt the climb. He climbed up and down the lower half of the rock over and over, memorizing the moves and building confidence, “getting it wired.” He says that “going up and down, up and down, eventually I worked myself in to such a fevered pitch that I committed myself to the top portion and very fortunately made it. It’s like a lot of other sporting activities. You not only get psyched up but almost become hypnotized or memorized to the point where your mind goes blank, and you climb by well-cultivated instinct.”
Climbing the Thimble marked a turning point in Gill’s life. Soon after that he got married and stopped doing climbs that he considered risky. “ I think risk can be addictive,” he explains, “and I didn’t want to become addicted. The intensity not only increases but changes in character when you climb things you simply cannot afford to fall off of. It’s difficult to put into words, but I found myself going into almost a different state of consciousness when I was climbing unroped in dangerous situation. My limbs became very light, my breathing altered very subtly, and I’m sure there were vascular changes that I wasn’t really aware of at the time. I noticed that I went into this different physiological configuration on life-threatening climbs. It was exhilarating and very intense, but almost in a relaxed way. There might be gripping moments, but there would still be this thread of relaxation throughout the whole climb. It was fascinating, but I didn’t want to get hooked on it.”
That Gill was so much better than the other rock climbers of the day can be attributed to his experimental, open-minded approach. He trained intensively on gymnastic apparatus when he wasn’t on the rocks, building strength to the point where he could chin himself while hanging from a single finger. A longtime student of Zen, he prepared his mind as thoroughly as he prepared his musculature.”
Hook

[rgoper 0]

**Well I'm Screaming For Vengeance**
i know this is going to sound really wierd, but i didn't associate the canopy manufacuturer name "vengence" with the song by judas priest until you brought it to my attention, but just know i have NO intention of flying one anytime soon, i have live for 43 years now, and trust me when i tell you i've seen a lot of people die, and i've lived long enough to realize my mortality, be safe, NO ONE lives forever!
Richard
"What The F**K Was That"
for once this was my actual thought at 2K today in the saddle, and a jumper falls past me at 120 MPH, then deploys 5 seconds later...............i TRIPPED, then i went and "discussed" it with him on the L.Z. i know ya'll are tired of hearing it, but be safe.............

[Zennie 0]

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I read books on Crew Resource Management, flight discipline, I study accidents, aircraft, car, canopy, anything. The thought process and mistakes that lead to canopy accidents are not specific to canopys.

This is a really interesting approach, and it has a lot of merit. Understand flawed decisionmaking processes and that knowledge can be applied to help you in any situation.

Quote

How many people have pulled out their hook knife on opening, just for the training value? How many people have practiced dropping a toggle to simulate the line breaking and transitioning to rear risers? I have and I continue to “what if” scenarios and solutions to deal with the unexpected.

Good things to try. Good way to make the most of hop-n-pops.

Quote

You not only get psyched up but almost become hypnotized or memorized to the point where your mind goes blank

I read this part and thought how wonderfully Zen that is. You're "there"... in the moment. Interesting that later on they note that he was a student of Zen.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[Iflyme 0]

Quote

We leave it to the discerning individual.

Ya -- and you don't have to be a good driver to get a $35,000 sports car, either. I hate hearing about people who die under a good canopies ...
"There's nothing new under the sun"