bbarnhouse 0 #26 April 12, 2002 AFF teaches that a student jumper must decide by 2,500 Um I think I can live with that! Oh and I have!It only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
axe96bam 0 #27 April 12, 2002 My decision Altitude is 1800 feet as well. If it is not landable by then, get rid of it. This I will have cut away by 1600 and hopefully be under a good reserve above 1000.Alex Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #28 April 12, 2002 this is my phylosiphy... if i'm under a messed up canopy...but not spinning, below say..1000ft i'd just pull silver...now if i was spinning in through 1000ft i would cutaway and pullsilver.... all depends on the situation...now i open at 3000 and have a malfunction....i'd go as low as maybe 1500 to see what happens but lowere than that and it's gone... the more fabric ya have over your head is a softer landing...but it doesn't work as good if it's wraped around your body cuz ya were spinning..... okay disregard...there are way to many variable to think about here...lets just say i have a total mal... it'd be gone by 1500 and silver would be pulled....."i may not go to heven, i hope you go to hell"-C.C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #29 April 12, 2002 QuoteNot to start another debate, but if I hit the ground and don't have all my handles pulled, somebody kick my corpse please.Zennie, that's one of the funnier things I've heard all day. "Are they short-shorts?" T.B. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #30 April 12, 2002 Rhino:i could be wrong, and i apologize in advance to mr/mrs/ms "newbie" if i am, but i believe we're dealing with a "whuffo" here. check profile, itz a bit sketchy!Richard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #31 April 12, 2002 Yep, if you read his posts they are all about how to get started and in one, he says he has his first AFF jump booked for May. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChromeBoy 0 #32 April 12, 2002 No problem with him posting questions though. DZ.com should have him pretty prepared for the AFF class. He will know what they are referring too. Newbie, it might be good to start out with questions like this saying something like I have never jumped solo before and haven't been trained, but...? You kind of scared us there with that question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #33 April 12, 2002 You know, even though this is a topic that *should* be covered by 1st jump courses and answered by JMs, I think it is still a good question to ask in a public setting such as this. There maybe a new jumper reading this that although was taught this, had forgotten exactly, or needed reassuring. "Are they short-shorts?" T.B. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spy38W 0 #34 April 12, 2002 Quote An RSL is a backup. Never rely on it to deploy your reserve for you. Pull both handles. Would sure suck if you jumped gear without an RSL after practicing cutaway and wait.. --~Captain CutawayI can disassemble a rig in less than 5 seconds... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rendezvous 0 #35 April 12, 2002 I second that. I think it's a good mental exercise to be thinking about it. I'm new and through all these posts I've realized that most of the people have made personal modifications of their own to decision parameters, procedures and limits that are quite different from the AFF laid down specifics. Ofcourser as experience builds up that is bound to happen but these questions and their discussions give some good insights to new jumpers like me regarding how different people analyze situations and adapt to them. Sort of adds to the knowledge base. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #36 April 12, 2002 i'm sure that while we all agree that newbies asking questions is good, especially from the experienced group we have here on dz.com right now, if the diver has an aff-1 level class/jump scheduled, the only one he/she should be listening to is there jumpmaster. sometimes too much information too soon can be confusing, especially in freefall, when everything is happening at 120 mph+. i remember how protective the divemasters were of there students when i was going through afp progression myself, the last thing you wanted to do, was give the prospective jumper any advice other than what had already been given by the jumpmaster. i've seen a few come unhinged. i know if i were an aff jumpmaster, i would want the student to focus on what i was telling him/her and no one else. the person that is asking these questions are asking intelligent questions, and there good questions, but no body's teaching/coaching teqniques are the same. just some thoughts, nothing "carved in stone here"Richard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PLFKING 3 #37 April 13, 2002 My personal hard deck is 1500 ft. I haven't had to cutaway yet, and I want to give myself every opportunity to fix the canopy that's already open, instead of relying on my second one to deploy cleanly. I'm sure this way of thinking will alter once I do have a reserve ride, but for now......no hard turns under 2000 ft, and nothing but braked turns under 500 ft.I've snapped steering lines twice on deployment (on my old canopy) but landed both with rear risers. I practice flares and turns with rear risers on at least every other jump, so I felt confident in my ability to do so, even though I was questioned about that decision on both jumps. If I got anywhere under 800 ft and had a major problem, I would do the canopy transfer also....wait until the reserve was 45 degrees up, then cut away.I've had opportunity to think about this a lot, too. One of the guys I went through student training with actually had the tops of three cells ripped off his canopy by the wheel of the plane while on his crosswind leg of his landing pattern (approx 200-300 ft alt.). It scared the shit out of all of us who saw it.....he flew it in with one toggle all the way up and the other one buried, just to fly straight in. He was sinking pretty damned fast, too. He flared at the last second (about 5 ft) and rolled up in a ball, and got out of it with only cuts and bruises. We talked it over on the 2-hour ride back to our hometown......he felt more comfortable trying to land it than with pulling silver --and that's his decision to make -- but I thought and still think that I'd execute a canopy transfer in a similar situation.What would you have done in that instance ? Point being that something catastrophic CAN happen under your decision altitude, and you always should be thinking of what your response to such an occurrence will be.....DonBtw....I agree wholeheartedly with what Richard said....students should listen to their JMs, and their JMs only. I am always extremely careful of what I say to and around students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #38 April 15, 2002 Never go in with all your handles in place if your too low to cut away and you have a nasty mal at least try and get some more material above your head. Missy Nelson couldnt cut her main away dumped her reserve and that slowed her down enough to canopy transfer. Saved her life Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #39 April 15, 2002 >Somebody mentioned 1000 feet, but I think you can chop a main and get a>reserve out in that space fairly easily. 500 feet?I hear this question a lot, and it worries me. Not because it's asked, but because it is debated as if the answer has real meaning.From sheer reserve deployment speed - with an unmodified reserve, a Reflex (because I have the most experience with its reserve system) and a cutaway from a good canopy with RSL deployment of the reserve you'd have a better than 50/50 chance of surviving if you cut away at 100 feet.But that's misleading. That does not account for the altitude you need to:0. Make a decision and grab the handle1. Let the reserve canopy accelerate to normal braked speed2. Release the brakes3. Let the canopy accelerate to normal flight speed4. Turn enough to avoid obstacles5. Flare6. Deal with altimeter inaccuracies7. Deal with ground height differences (i.e. trees can remove half that 100 feet)8. Deal with a cutaway from anything other than a good, flying main>at what altitude should you not cut away your messed up main There's no way to answer that with perfect certainty. At 1000 feet, you will almost certainly have enough time to get your reserve open and land safely. At 100 feet, you almost certainly will not (although your impact speed may not be fatal.) Personally? If someone destroyed my canopy at 1000 feet I'd chop it. 200 feet and I would dump the reserve into the main. The theory there is that if you're going to land under a ball of shit it better be the biggest ball of shit you can manage.At 500 feet? It would depend. Minor damage but still unlandable, over nasty ground? I'd do a canopy transfer. A spinning mal over a lake or big freshly plowed field? I might chop it. One riser broken? I'd probably do a normal cutaway and pray. -bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #40 April 15, 2002 >I would try a modified canopy transfer. Pull reserve then as soon as I get line>stretch pull the cut away . . .That's the standard canopy transfer, right there. I would add that it's a bad idea on a spinning mal.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #41 April 15, 2002 >if you were under a canopy that developed problems (e.g. extreme deflation from> tubulence) . . .You are generally much, much better off with an open but collapsed canopy above your head at 100 feet than no canopy above your head at 100 feet. The main will generally reinflate. If the turbulence is so bad that it will not, then the reserve's not going to have much better luck.> what is the decision altitude in order for a reserve to be out and open at? Is 500> ft ok? Yes, but having a reserve out and open at 500 feet is very different from deciding to cut away at 500 feet. When I teach, I use 2500 feet as decision altitude and 1000 feet for never-cut-away-below altitude - mainly because, for a student, deciding to cut away at 1000 feet would probably lead to having a reserve at 500 feet, an altitude that we expect most students to be on _final_ by.>Whats the lowest anyone has cutaway at and been under a reserve and landed>safe?That would be a somewhat meaningless data point. There is no altitude, over water, that someone can cut away from and not have at least a decent chance of survival - even getting stood up by the reserve will probably save your life, and below a certain altitude (60 feet or so) you have a good chance at survival anyway.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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AggieDave 6 #33 April 12, 2002 You know, even though this is a topic that *should* be covered by 1st jump courses and answered by JMs, I think it is still a good question to ask in a public setting such as this. There maybe a new jumper reading this that although was taught this, had forgotten exactly, or needed reassuring. "Are they short-shorts?" T.B. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spy38W 0 #34 April 12, 2002 Quote An RSL is a backup. Never rely on it to deploy your reserve for you. Pull both handles. Would sure suck if you jumped gear without an RSL after practicing cutaway and wait.. --~Captain CutawayI can disassemble a rig in less than 5 seconds... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #35 April 12, 2002 I second that. I think it's a good mental exercise to be thinking about it. I'm new and through all these posts I've realized that most of the people have made personal modifications of their own to decision parameters, procedures and limits that are quite different from the AFF laid down specifics. Ofcourser as experience builds up that is bound to happen but these questions and their discussions give some good insights to new jumpers like me regarding how different people analyze situations and adapt to them. Sort of adds to the knowledge base. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #36 April 12, 2002 i'm sure that while we all agree that newbies asking questions is good, especially from the experienced group we have here on dz.com right now, if the diver has an aff-1 level class/jump scheduled, the only one he/she should be listening to is there jumpmaster. sometimes too much information too soon can be confusing, especially in freefall, when everything is happening at 120 mph+. i remember how protective the divemasters were of there students when i was going through afp progression myself, the last thing you wanted to do, was give the prospective jumper any advice other than what had already been given by the jumpmaster. i've seen a few come unhinged. i know if i were an aff jumpmaster, i would want the student to focus on what i was telling him/her and no one else. the person that is asking these questions are asking intelligent questions, and there good questions, but no body's teaching/coaching teqniques are the same. just some thoughts, nothing "carved in stone here"Richard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFKING 3 #37 April 13, 2002 My personal hard deck is 1500 ft. I haven't had to cutaway yet, and I want to give myself every opportunity to fix the canopy that's already open, instead of relying on my second one to deploy cleanly. I'm sure this way of thinking will alter once I do have a reserve ride, but for now......no hard turns under 2000 ft, and nothing but braked turns under 500 ft.I've snapped steering lines twice on deployment (on my old canopy) but landed both with rear risers. I practice flares and turns with rear risers on at least every other jump, so I felt confident in my ability to do so, even though I was questioned about that decision on both jumps. If I got anywhere under 800 ft and had a major problem, I would do the canopy transfer also....wait until the reserve was 45 degrees up, then cut away.I've had opportunity to think about this a lot, too. One of the guys I went through student training with actually had the tops of three cells ripped off his canopy by the wheel of the plane while on his crosswind leg of his landing pattern (approx 200-300 ft alt.). It scared the shit out of all of us who saw it.....he flew it in with one toggle all the way up and the other one buried, just to fly straight in. He was sinking pretty damned fast, too. He flared at the last second (about 5 ft) and rolled up in a ball, and got out of it with only cuts and bruises. We talked it over on the 2-hour ride back to our hometown......he felt more comfortable trying to land it than with pulling silver --and that's his decision to make -- but I thought and still think that I'd execute a canopy transfer in a similar situation.What would you have done in that instance ? Point being that something catastrophic CAN happen under your decision altitude, and you always should be thinking of what your response to such an occurrence will be.....DonBtw....I agree wholeheartedly with what Richard said....students should listen to their JMs, and their JMs only. I am always extremely careful of what I say to and around students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #38 April 15, 2002 Never go in with all your handles in place if your too low to cut away and you have a nasty mal at least try and get some more material above your head. Missy Nelson couldnt cut her main away dumped her reserve and that slowed her down enough to canopy transfer. Saved her life Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #39 April 15, 2002 >Somebody mentioned 1000 feet, but I think you can chop a main and get a>reserve out in that space fairly easily. 500 feet?I hear this question a lot, and it worries me. Not because it's asked, but because it is debated as if the answer has real meaning.From sheer reserve deployment speed - with an unmodified reserve, a Reflex (because I have the most experience with its reserve system) and a cutaway from a good canopy with RSL deployment of the reserve you'd have a better than 50/50 chance of surviving if you cut away at 100 feet.But that's misleading. That does not account for the altitude you need to:0. Make a decision and grab the handle1. Let the reserve canopy accelerate to normal braked speed2. Release the brakes3. Let the canopy accelerate to normal flight speed4. Turn enough to avoid obstacles5. Flare6. Deal with altimeter inaccuracies7. Deal with ground height differences (i.e. trees can remove half that 100 feet)8. Deal with a cutaway from anything other than a good, flying main>at what altitude should you not cut away your messed up main There's no way to answer that with perfect certainty. At 1000 feet, you will almost certainly have enough time to get your reserve open and land safely. At 100 feet, you almost certainly will not (although your impact speed may not be fatal.) Personally? If someone destroyed my canopy at 1000 feet I'd chop it. 200 feet and I would dump the reserve into the main. The theory there is that if you're going to land under a ball of shit it better be the biggest ball of shit you can manage.At 500 feet? It would depend. Minor damage but still unlandable, over nasty ground? I'd do a canopy transfer. A spinning mal over a lake or big freshly plowed field? I might chop it. One riser broken? I'd probably do a normal cutaway and pray. -bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #40 April 15, 2002 >I would try a modified canopy transfer. Pull reserve then as soon as I get line>stretch pull the cut away . . .That's the standard canopy transfer, right there. I would add that it's a bad idea on a spinning mal.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #41 April 15, 2002 >if you were under a canopy that developed problems (e.g. extreme deflation from> tubulence) . . .You are generally much, much better off with an open but collapsed canopy above your head at 100 feet than no canopy above your head at 100 feet. The main will generally reinflate. If the turbulence is so bad that it will not, then the reserve's not going to have much better luck.> what is the decision altitude in order for a reserve to be out and open at? Is 500> ft ok? Yes, but having a reserve out and open at 500 feet is very different from deciding to cut away at 500 feet. When I teach, I use 2500 feet as decision altitude and 1000 feet for never-cut-away-below altitude - mainly because, for a student, deciding to cut away at 1000 feet would probably lead to having a reserve at 500 feet, an altitude that we expect most students to be on _final_ by.>Whats the lowest anyone has cutaway at and been under a reserve and landed>safe?That would be a somewhat meaningless data point. There is no altitude, over water, that someone can cut away from and not have at least a decent chance of survival - even getting stood up by the reserve will probably save your life, and below a certain altitude (60 feet or so) you have a good chance at survival anyway.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
