Reserve characteristics?

[ChrisD 0]

lyosha

Hi all,

Can someone compare and contrast the popular reserves on the market today? I understand pack volume is smaller on an Optimum, but which one opens faster? Softer? Which ones flies better/deals better with turbulence? Bigger reserve = harder, faster opening, right? Any other differences between the reserves you can mention?

If your anywhere near Deland both Aerodyne and PD have reserves that you can demo. Both companies have representatives that have been posted here, somewhere, and they are fine folks that would love to help you with that. I mention Deland because these two places are well within walking distance of the DZ. Otherwise most all the manufacturers have reserves that are built for demoing, but you will be asked for a deposit and then there is the waiting period for the mail and post services. But this is a great and underused resource in skydiving. Most everyone I know , including myself just rolled the dice when it came to reserve selection. I mean how many did in fact demo a bunch of reserves and then made a purchasing decision? (Show of hands??)

You really have asked a big question. I think of the same question applied to automobiles, your going to get a lot of varying answers. Perhaps as a suggestion as you learn more about reserves, you can narrow your questions / topics, down somewhat?
There actually is one person I know of that in fact has jumped a number of reserves on a regular basis. He is also a photographer as well. Not much info comes out of him though, the people at PD can explain further. Some here on dropzone.com know him. I only point this out because this same question has been asked of that individual in the past and he is reluctant to share his experiences. Perhaps it's because he is afraid to loose his status as a test jumper? There are also a few icons like Billy Webber running loose upon the earth. It would be really nice if they would write a tell all book someday? I would also consider the possibility that there are more similarities amongst all of the manufacturers reserves than differences.

I like your question about (upsizing?) Your quip about how you wish you could put whatever sized reserve you want in your container. I think PD''s advertising speaks volumes about what is and what isn't said when marketing reserves. The fact that the words: "low Bulk," and "smaller pack volume," are used indicates a value system that they are exploiting. Nothing against the company but implicit in the message is the idea that a bigger reserve is a good thing on the same hand it's kind of a negative by pointing out that the container manufacturers aren't listening to those that want to be able to carry a larger reserve. And as you have pointed out yes the subject of container sizing is a bit of a bummer. Personally I feel that the manufacturers have been lead by the buying public to move towards a reserve that is one size smaller than the main, this is a stereotype but has led to the widely held idea that a smaller reserve is better for some reason. Only if your Gucci is my answer to that one. If you have 2000 jumps your going to have different reasons for doing what you do. Personally I just upsized my reserve. I buy into the argument about getting wacked by someone else in free fall and or if I need a reserve I may not be in the best mental state to fly it well. So for me bigger is better. Many people purchase their reserve based upon how they can fly it. I purchased my reserve based upon the possibility I won't be flying it.
C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[erdnarob 1]

All reserves are designed and tested to open fast. But not all containers are the same in order to get you a fast reserve deployment. It depends also on the device helping to release the reserve faster like the SKYHOOK or equivalent M.A.R.D. devices. OTOH I have been witness of a friend of mine jumping a demo Optimum reserve from PD as a main. When he landed, I was looking from the side at about hundred feet and I can tell the landing with the Optimum was similar to the landing on a 9 cells including a beautiful flare.
In case of an AAD triggered deployment, the way your rigger pack your reserve like tension of the closing loop and the length of the free part of the bridle inside of the reseve container are factors contributing to your time deployment.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[riggerrob 558]

***Well you could get an M series reserve that is prone to opening so fast that it will smack you stupid. They had to have the attachment points upgraded to prevent the lines from ripping off the bottom of the canopy. ...

....................................................................................

A large part of the problem was that Raven Dash-Ms were one of the few reserves built with 3/4 inch wide, Type 3 binding-tape for line attachment points.
I inspected a Raven Dash-M 282, that tore up after the user was: over-weight, over-speed and unstable when he scared his Cypres.
If you returned a Raven Dash-M to the Precision factory, they would replace the A and B line attachment tapes with Type 1 webbing. Most other reserve manufacturers use Type 1 webbing for line attachments.

Yes, I have heard that performance Designs does not use Type 1 webbing, but I cannot tell the difference at arm's length.
Tandem reserves use 1 inch wide, Type 4 tape for line attachments.

[lyosha 46]

Related question - unconscious under a reserve... what WL have people walked away at?

[airtwardo 6]

lyosha

Related question - unconscious under a reserve... what WL have people walked away at?

How ya gonna walk away unconscious?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DHemer 0]

Thats just being difficult

I will be loaded at a 1.05 WL on the reserve I just bought. Realistically what sort of injuries would you expect, broken legs, mangled face etc. if you came in unconscious due to an aad deployment
Obviously if you end up flying into a tree trunk or hanger things will not be good no matter the WL

[Quagmirian 40]

All things being equal, two rectangular reserves with the same area, aspect ratio, rib profile, line lengths etc can have really quite different flight characteristics. But not all things are equal. For a start, manufacturers can't even agree on a standard measuring method, so comparing one reserve from one company with one from another becomes really quite difficult, and all attempts to get some hard numbers end up being shat through a bin bag. Like others have said, the best way to acquaint yourself with any new canopy is to jump it.

[airtwardo 6]

DHemer

Thats just being difficult

I will be loaded at a 1.05 WL on the reserve I just bought. Realistically what sort of injuries would you expect, broken legs, mangled face etc. if you came in unconscious due to an aad deployment
Obviously if you end up flying into a tree trunk or hanger things will not be good no matter the WL

As you obviously understand, there are a lot of variables that could affect the outcome.

My reserve is a 220 and it's actually loaded a bit higher than yours.

Before I got it the manufacturer let me demo one as a main, I had similar concerns so I tried it...kinda.

I jumped it a few times, the last time to 'simulate' a no input landing.

Left the brakes set...I riser turned it to land cross wind in an open area. The plan was to PLF the landing if it looked okay.

But I'm an old fart and I chickened out at the last second and flared with the rears to a soft stand-up.

No doubt in my mind that the landing would have been survivable with no input...slow & stable flight, no worse than some student landings I've seen.

But again, downwind into a tree or onto concrete...roll the dice.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Joellercoaster 6]

lyosha

Related question - unconscious under a reserve... what WL have people walked away at?

Last year, this jumper landed unconscious under a PDR 113 loaded at 1.7:1. He sustained additional injuries on landing and the consensus seems to be that he was very lucky (landed in a field). According to his post, he is upsizing his reserve.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[lyosha 46]

so you're comfortable with the idea of landing under your reserve with the brakes stowed at 1.16?

[lyosha 46]

Joellercoaster

***Related question - unconscious under a reserve... what WL have people walked away at?

Last year, this jumper landed unconscious under a PDR 113 loaded at 1.7:1. He sustained additional injuries on landing and the consensus seems to be that he was very lucky (landed in a field). According to his post, he is upsizing his reserve.

... damn. But it sounds like he was extremely fortunate to avoid serious health complications and had some extended time where he wasn't very life-useful... :-/

[jumpwally 0]

Outstanding !!!

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[RiggerLee 61]

It's not really fair to compare canopies based on wing loading. The 220 is a perfect example. Even at the same "true", think measuring differences, wing loading it can not be used as a bench mark for a 113. It's very nearly twice the surface area. The math says it should scale but it doesn't. Large canopies far out perform small ones at the same wing loading. I don't have a good explanation for this but it's true. So that testimony can be a little miss leading. Also break setting vary. And glide angle/decent rate vary from design to design.

I hate to confuse the issue. But the best and simplest advise that any one can give you is don't skimp on the size of your reserve.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[lyosha 46]

Well, the reason why the relationship between square footage and weight and performance characteristics not being linear like everyone in this sport pretends it is is probably closely tied to us living in a 3-D world, but trying to correlate performance to a 2-D metric.

But bypassing the "wrong answer to wrong question" philosophical conundrum, it would be nice to have some sort of data to make a decision based on, without having the opportunity to demo 6 different canopies.

I can tell you my reasoning - that I'm shooting for much closer to the 200sf range than the 100sf, and if someone with a smaller parachute did okay at that wing loading, I'm in reasonable shape with the same wingloading at a bigger sf wing.

... and by "that wingloading" I don't mean 1.7...

[Doug_Davis 0]

lyosha

I want information to make an informed decision... :(

Good luck. As a newbie myself Im finding it difficult.

Which is what MasterRigger is complaining about I think. Not enough info is being openly made available to people in order for them to make an informed decision.

[mattjw916 2]

The information is out there, but the odds of encountering "bizarre scenario X" and happening to have the exact gear combination that thwarts it is extremely improbable.

Doing stupid shit and making bad decisions kills a lot more skydivers than anything else by a mile.

Even if you do everything right, you can still go in... there will always be variables that you can't control or plan for.

A lot of people who nit-pick over gear just use it as a way to rationalize the danger away, i.e. "I'll be 'safe' if I have a Cypres 2 with the latest code revision and the activation altitude cranked up, a Skyhook, and the same PD main/reserve combo jumped by Airspeed thousands of times per year" or something else along those lines...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

The information is out there, but the odds of encountering "bizarre scenario X" and happening to have the exact gear combination that thwarts it is extremely improbable.

The information is NOT out there. Show me where I can find it.

Also,I do not think the people that went in within the last year would think it was improbable.

Lastly, a simple cypres fire with a sniveling reserve is not so "bizarre". The OPT reserve is designed from the start to have slow openings.There is nothing "bizarre" about that canopy opening slow.The people that own and have rode one knows this for fact.

Quote

Doing stupid shit and making bad decisions kills a lot more skydivers than anything else by a mile.

Agreed.
But for a person that simply gets caught up involved in a Cypres fire and falsely believes that the gear that he or she has will save them and it doesn't; what do you call them. ..Stupid????


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[lyosha 46]

mattjw916

A lot of people who nit-pick over gear just use it as a way to rationalize the danger away, i.e. "I'll be 'safe' if I have a Cypres 2 with the latest code revision and the activation altitude cranked up, a Skyhook, and the same PD main/reserve combo jumped by Airspeed thousands of times per year" or something else along those lines...

Perhaps. But at the same time, I would disagree with that statement. I'm not trying to rationalize anything away. I'm first and foremost trying to understand the amount of risk I am taking, and if I am not comfortable with that amount of risk I take action to mitigate it. Some decisions are black and white and easy to understand - i.e. the use of an RSL by inexperienced jumpers (such as myself). Others are less granular such as reserve size, and making the proper decision becomes a more personal issue often with a similarly valid decision one size smaller or greater that would not substantially impact an outcome.

But you don't honestly think that I would be safer with a 109 sq ft reserve in my container than a 193? Or that I would pick a 193 just to make myself feel better about myself and not to mitigate substantial unnecessary risks?

This sport carries an inherent risk, but not all behaviors within it carry the same amount of risk. That's why a disproportionate percentage of incidents a year are due to swooping.

[airtwardo 6]

lyosha

so you're comfortable with the idea of landing under your reserve with the brakes stowed at 1.16?

Define 'comfortable'...


~Am I willing to risk the possibility?
Yes

In reality the possibility of having a no input landing under your reserve is pretty remote...that said, however slight - it certainly IS a possibility.

I'd feel pretty st00pid spending all that money on an AAD...only to have my ticket cancelled 700' later because I was more concerned about jumping a small, light rig than I was with tipping the scale a few more points my way in the 'surviving unexpected shit' scale.

But that's me...

A whole lotta stuff in this game is a personal judgement call, it depends on goals, priorities...heath insurance.


So ~ to answer your question, no I'm not really comfortable with the idea of landing ANY parachute while unconscious - even a big ole round like I use to use.

I however DO believe the odds are a bit more in my favor regarding the general survivability of 'my' canopy & loading, over that of a pretty good percentage of other people I see.

Like I said - when I tried it, sure looked like a probable 'walk away' landing was in the making.

Thing is - at this point in my skydiving career, I've used up most of my 'probably be alrights' ...so I didn't push it.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mattjw916 2]

The recent double Cypres-fire incident didn't even involve an Optimum... it was a Smart and a PDR.

No one knows what happened there AFAIK. But logic dictates that one or both of them were unstable at the time the loops were cut and it's also just as likely they were honking-in at high-speed.

Regardless of what gear I'm wearing you couldn't pay me enough money in the world to go head-down followed by a somersault or two approaching 750ft and simply count on my Cypres alone to save me.

Wanting to believe your gear can save you with a 0% failure rate in the event you ate a bowl of dumbass in the morning before you hit the DZ, or simply had an accident, isn't realistic. I'm quite certain even way back in my FJC I remember being told that having a Cypres might just mean you die at line-stretch or inflation instead of having nothing out at all.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[RiggerLee 61]

It does bug me that no one tries or is willing to share real information about their equipment. I don't believe any one knowingly puts out a bad product. If it was me I think I'd be prouder then a peacock. But I guess it's easier to sell the shiny and the hype.

You clearly have a problem with the slower openings of the optimum. But lets rewind to your description of the Raven-M that blew up. You say it was over speed and over weight? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Reality check. Head down is the fastest growing facet of our sport. On some dropzones it's become the dominant discipline there will be more people free flying on a load the belly flyers. What is "over speed" Are you saying that there is no expectation of a reserve surviving on a head down dive? A high percentage of jumpers spend the majority of there free fall time at "super terminal" speed. This is the world we live in. And what speed was it tested to in it's heavy high speed drops? Are you saying he exceeded that speed? Why did it blow up? Over weight? Again you'll have to define that. Are you saying that he was over the recommended weight stated on the reserve? If so that just means that it should not have landed well. Or are you saying that it was over the 254 lb. or what ever the TSO maximum weight was for the reserve? Because it should not suffer ANY damage below that weight and it should have been tested to XXX% above that weight with no sign of damage in testing.

So what are our expectations for a reserve. Not blowing up is high on my list. And the envelope we are flying in has expanded. Designs which were once perfectly fine are not suitable for what we are doing today. I'll still jump them but I mostly do CRW when I jump at all which is less and less now a days. If you're going to Freefly you need a reserve that can handle super terminal openings, ie a slower opening reserve. You seem to think that it should still open like a fire cracker from a low speed cutaway. I fully believe that we can do ether one of these but I'm afraid that we will never be able to do both. You're not going to be able to have your cake and eat it too on this one.

Now I think the choices are rather simple. We can ether stop flying head down or say that it's ok for a reserve to blow up on opening. Second choice, build canopies that can survive through out the entire envelope of our flight but that means that we will have to show them more respect at the bottom end. But we can do that. That is within our power to control. We can change the BSR's. We can now raise AAD altitudes. We can respect the performance envelope of the gear. It's the same choice really it's just a question of which end of the spectrum you want to bow to.

You know if you are really worried about slow reserve openings we have it in our power to make canopies open as fast as we want. Hell, I'll show you how to pack slider down. But you wont be able to survive it at terminal. Even then I'd still give you a 300 ft. hard deck to cut away with out a MARD. There is still a lower limit. You just have to respect the envelope of your gear.

And how did your TSO compatibility meeting go?

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[mattjw916 2]

Reserve size is actually a pretty easy choice for an average sized person. Anything 170ish and larger loaded under 1.2 is quite forgiving. By the time you get enough experience to pick out something smaller you should have learned at least enough to know how big a hole you're digging for yourself if you run into trouble under the sportier options.

But, if you're relying on the most minor of differences between the handful of low-aspect ratio seven cells to come between you and the reaper, you're in the danger zone.

Simple answer, get the biggest PDR you can tolerate. If you're really anal borrow a tersh setup, go right to silver at terminal, and if you aren't seeing stars due to getting smacked, see for yourself how quick it opens with your main still in the tray.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

The recent double Cypres-fire incident didn't even involve an Optimum... it was a Smart and a PDR.

I never said that it did.
On the other hand, how do you know that the "PDR" is not a improperly named OPT?
Just asking...

Quote

Regardless of what gear I'm wearing you couldn't pay me enough money in the world to go head-down followed by a somersault or two approaching 750ft and simply count on my Cypres alone to save me.

I am worried about how someone ended up that low; just that they in fact did.
They spent good money on a AAD device and other equipment with the thought process that this gear has the possibility that the combination might save them.

The problem that I am pointing out that that "possibility' could be now an impossibility with the wrong combinations of gear.

Quote

Wanting to believe your gear can save you with a 0% failure rate in the event you ate a bowl of dumbass in the morning before you hit the DZ, or simply had an accident, isn't realistic.

No, but needing to know what combination of gear that actually will work at a given altitude is very realistic.

***
I'm quite certain even way back in my FJC I remember being told that having a Cypres might just mean you die at line-stretch or inflation instead of having nothing out at all.
***

That's funny because I can't remember anyone ever dying after a Cypres fire years ago.
This phenomenon started about 6 -7 years ago from the best that I can conclude.


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

You clearly have a problem with the slower openings of the optimum. But lets rewind to your description of the Raven-M that blew up. You say it was over speed and over weight? What exactly is that supposed to mean? Reality check. Head down is the fastest growing facet of our sport. On some dropzones it's become the dominant discipline there will be more people free flying on a load the belly flyers. What is "over speed" Are you saying that there is no expectation of a reserve surviving on a head down dive? A high percentage of jumpers spend the majority of there free fall time at "super terminal" speed. This is the world we live in. And what speed was it tested to in it's heavy high speed drops? Are you saying he exceeded that speed? Why did it blow up? Over weight? Again you'll have to define that. Are you saying that he was over the recommended weight stated on the reserve? If so that just means that it should not have landed well. Or are you saying that it was over the 254 lb. or what ever the TSO maximum weight was for the reserve? Because it should not suffer ANY damage below that weight and it should have been tested to XXX% above that weight with no sign of damage in testing.

Lee,
I am pressed for time tonight or a I would give you an in depth response. Maybe tomorrow.

But to sum it up.
The gear that we have is placarded at lower air speeds than the some people are going.
The reality check is this:
Stay within the parameters of the gear. At least at deployment time.
We do not need to build reserve parachutes that open slower. We need to discipline ourselves to use the gear at hand in a sensible manner and within the placarded limits.

This was part of the discussions with the FAA on Thursday BTW.
The ball is rolling on the compatibility issues as we speak.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[RiggerLee 61]

Six or seven years... Keeping in mind rates of gear replacement an the level of saturation before the probability of it showing up... So what sort of design changes did we start to go through 10 to 12 years ago? Interesting. I'm trying to think of some of the tweaks that were made to gear and pattern sets. It seems like that was kind of the time period when people were making an effort to clean up the esthetics of their rigs. Small pattern set changes. Remember when Javelin did away with the hinge space at the top of the top reserve flap? I'm just using that as an example. And some other changes to the reserve tray. Other manufactures did similar things. collectively some of these things could add up to slow or delay the reserve launch.

Just saying that when you talk about cypress fires there can be a lot of variables beyond the canopy. And we're talking about a period of evolution in the container designs that might match up with this increase in cypress fatalities. And before that we had a much high number of cypress fires. We packed 11 cypress fires in one week at Quincy and that was just the rigging trailer. I'll bet there were a good number done in the field. So yes there is with out a doubt a problem there but I'm not sure it's a reserve problem. Or not solely a reserve problem.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com