What Was Your Canopy Downsizing Progression?

[skybytch 259]

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I was going to say I'm seeing a lot of rapid down sizing on some of these posts and frankly... it scares me.

Me too, but I wasn't going to say it in this thread.
Seems that the concept of downsizing slowly and really learning to fly a canopy before going smaller is out of fashion... I may not be fashionable, but I'm walking and jumping. Unlike several of my friends who downsized/went very high performance before they knew what they were doing, or went too small for their currency level, etc... and screwed themselves up but good (miss ya Kenny... how's the legs and pelvis doing Jimmy?... walking yet Neisha?... your gear finally sold Matt...). But of course, everyone here are the exceptions - they all make 200+ jumps a year and have received state of the art canopy control training... nothing like what I've seen will ever happen to them.
pull & flare,
lisa

[scottbre 0]

Aww lisa, don't give up hope, didn't you see my post? Seems pretty reasonable right? from .91 to 1.1 after at least a hundred jumps on the .91 wingloading.... "Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4

[rapper4mpi 0]

Ya know, I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to turn this thread into a heated debate. But I agree some people are downsizing way to quickly. The other thing that is happening with canpies is this: Because newer and higher performance canopies are being introduced to the market all the time, it seems that the older models are being considered less high performance. For example, a Sabre at one time (10 years ago) was considered a high performance canopy, but now relative to other canopies it isn't. That's fine, but a Sabre at a wingloading of 1.1 can still allow you to turn yourself into line twists. I believe in this: wring every little bit of performance out of your existing canopy before moving down. And with all of us there will reach a point where you need to stop moving down...does any of this make sense or has my brain already left work? :)
-Rap

[Pammi 0]

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I think Lisa's response was a sarcastic response to some sarcastic taunts. I see people with 300 - 400 jumps that have downsized pretty fast. To each there own just don't preach downsizing.

Okay, here goes. I'm so sorry that this thread ended up going in this direction. I was kinda afraid it would, THAT'S why I joked around about it in the beginning. (Thanks Aggiedave...that is exactly how it was intended.) As it turns out, my joking to actually make light of things STARTED something simply because someone is in a 'bitchy mood' (self-proclaimed). I downsized according to recommendations by people that know me, JM's AND the DZO. I'm not preaching it, nor am I preaching NOT to do it. I, personally, feel like it's none of my business what anyone else does. I can give my opinion, but I've heard more *preaching* about not downsizing then actually hearing people trying to talk others into downsizing faster.
Again, I'm sorry that things went this way out of what I thought was just a teasing remark. This is all just sad and ridiculous how careful we have to be anymore. Things have changed a lot since the old Dz.com days. Newbies who want to brag about graduating or just starting progressions get less acknowledgment then a boobies thread.

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So everyone keep your f**** egos and small canopies to yourself and STFU.

Is that truly necessary? This is the kind of language that has been closing threads quickly, and unfortunately very frequently, anymore.
New pin jewelry!

[Pammi 0]

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But of course, everyone here are the exceptions - they all make 200+ jumps a year and have received state of the art canopy control training... nothing like what I've seen will ever happen to them.

THAT is what upsets me! You just basically said that everyone on this forum is not as intelligent or safety conscience as yourself. A pretty arrogant statement. Everyone has a right to do as they like....and anyone has a right to give their opinion on it. Telling them their an idiot for their decision is stepping over lines. THAT is how things got out of hand before.
New pin jewelry!

[jdhill 0]

I think one of the reasons you see people moving down quickly is what they are jumping as students... several places use Sabers as student canopies... they are used to Z-p from day one, and have never seen or flown a Manta.
Having said that, I agree that many people are moving down too quickly. They are able to purchase (either new or used) HP canopies without regard to their ability... You can tell them not to, but they do it anyway... who's responsible?
I don't think any of the small canopy pilots (myself included) on my home dz have ever suggested to a youngjumper "go smaller", but I regularly hear "you don't fly your current canopy well enough... your not ready for that yet".
Josh
http://www.aerialfusion.com

[Zennie 0]

Just to play Bytch's Advocate for a moment ....
I don't think she's necessarily being arrogant. I think it's more of a "been there, seen that" sort of thing. She's been around this sport for a long time... longer than most of us here. And I'm sure she's seen more nasty stuff than many of us would care to in our skydiving careers. I'm sure a lot of it is the same sort of thing "Those guys were just being dumb. I'm smarter than that." Next thing you know you're being LifeFlight'ed away.
So it's not an "I'm better/more careful than you" thing, it's an "I've seen this part of the play before, and I don't want any of you getting hurt" thing.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[sunshine 2]

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I need to keep up with the Jones

Ok Phree, you know what i'm thinking so i won't even say it!!
"Who gave Phreezone the remote again?!" ~ Goat Blower

[AndyMan 7]

Sure, but at the same time if i wanted a sport that was completely safe, I'd take up golfing. Yeah - I like the risk.
I'm probably one of those who lisa thinks downsized too quickly. I didn't do it lightly, that's all I'm gonna say in my defense. I LIKE landing my stileto. it's fun. I hope I don't hurt myself, but that's a risk that every one of us takes whenever we skydive.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Sebazz1 2]

It's just that I've seen 190 lb. students pound in on 265' - 300' canopies. And some of these same students a year later with 50 jumps are buying smaller faster canopies. It's just dangerous. Thats all.
And to me it seems these days that students seem to have thier priorities out of order. Boobies are more popular than passing AFF, getting an A, knowing thier emergency procedures inside out, learning the fundamentals of canopy control, etc.. And people that preach safety and conservatism get punished for being a downer or infringing upon someones right to do what they want.
How many people have seen someone double femur 10 feet in front of them. Or have lost a good buddy to skydiving due to a mistake under canopy? In our hurry to be as good as we can I see people cutting too many corners.
I am really a super nice guy and rarely speak my opinion because it draws negative reactions from people that say they know better. I still don't know shit.. So just be safe and take your time. Skydiving is not goin anywhere any time soon. So take your time and set a good example.
Probably the most dangerous time in my short skydiving career was between 200 - 600 jumps. I was cocky self absorbed and invincible. Go ahead take someone you know who has never jumped teach em how to skydive and be as reponsible for them as possible a see how you select gear for them. It will change your perspective on being safe and conservative.
Umm I just lost track of my thoughts. Oh well I will shut up now. I did not mean to use the STFU word. My appologies.
SEBAZZ.......

[Pammi 0]

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I don't think she's necessarily being arrogant. I think it's more of a "been there, seen that" sort of thing. She's been around this sport for a long time... longer than most of us here. And I'm sure she's seen more nasty stuff than many of us would care to in our skydiving careers. I'm sure a lot of it is the same sort of thing "Those guys were just being dumb. I'm smarter than that." Next thing you know you're being LifeFlight'ed away.
So it's not an "I'm better/more careful than you" thing, it's an "I've seen this part of the play before, and I don't want any of you getting hurt" thing.

Oh absolutely Zen. I'm certain she has more knowledge then myself from her experience, I'm not debating that at all. And good opinions are always welcomed. It's when things are said about the fact you choose to do something other then that person's opinion that bothers me. But that's my own personal philosophy, live and let live.
For instance. Say you're told on here you should never ever downsize to a certain canopy. You then talk to your JM, someone with about 5000 jumps and your DZO, heaven knows how many jumps, and they say "No, I think it'll work for you." so you do it. They know you and you trust them. Then you tell the first person "Guess what I did?" and they think you've made a big mistake and tell you so. Ultimate decision is yours and hopefully you've made an informed one, and everyone will wish you well on it.
Anyway...that's all. I'll hush. Again, sorry.
New pin jewelry!

[rapper4mpi 0]

Isn't there an old saying that goes like this?: A truly wise person learns from another persons mistakes.
-Rap

[skybytch 259]

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As it turns out, my joking to actually make light of things STARTED something simply because
someone is in a 'bitchy mood' (self-proclaimed).

Your comment did not come off to me like a joke - at that point there was nothing to make light of. That felt like a direct dig at me, simply because I give enough of a shit about people to notice when they are moving down in size rapidly because I really dislike it when my friends get injured or die in situations where they could have walked away under a larger or less aggressive canopy. In this particular thread I had said NOTHING to anyone about their canopy choices anyway - so the dig/joke was not, imho, warranted.

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You just basically said that everyone on this forum is not as intelligent or safety conscience as yourself. A pretty arrogant statement.

Um no, that's not what I said. I said nothing about anybody's intelligence nor did I call anyone an idiot. For that matter I didn't direct that at any one person. The only names I mentioned are people that really exist (well, other than Kenny... he's dead now) who will never jump again because of the decisions they made when they bought new gear - they didn't consider the worst case scenario when they downsized or went to a more aggressive canopy, and they didn't listen to those who "preached" being conservative for the first couple hundred jumps. My last statement was sarcastic, yes, but the point is valid - if you don't make a shit load of jumps every year and get ongoing training/coaching on canopy control as you downsize, pushing 1.4 and above at 100 - 200 jumps is not a very safety concious thing to do. If you think I'm arrogant because I've seen shit happen and don't want it to happen to others, so be it. My definition of arrogance is a bit different from yours.
pull & flare,
lisa

[axe96bam 0]

Hey Pammi, I agree with you that your JMs and DZO are better informed than most people on this thread. I personally listen to some and disregard other posters' advice. I made a thread in the "canopy control" section called "what do you fly" and if you go there you will see that most people here have very few jumps and limited canopy experience. There are those who have lots of experience though and their opinion should matter to you. I, for example, will put a lot of thought on something about canopies that Lisa or Chuck would say, but I would not get upset over a remark they make. They speak mostly about the average jumper. Take their opinion, share with your JMs and DZO and come up to a conclusion. I am 100% in agreement with you that the final decision is yours and no one else's. We just need to make sure we make good decisions and are good example for the new jumpers. what works for you might not work for others, just remember that. learning curves are different for different people.
Alex

[rapper4mpi 0]

What about someone like myself? I may not have thousands of jumps but: I've been in the sport 7 years, 650 jumps, I'm an instructor, and have been personally taught by some of the best in the world....Just wondering where my opinion stacks up. Also, I'm pretty conservative with my advice and always try to refer others to their home DZ instructors, since they know them best.
-Rap

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I could have sworn that I answered to this thread quite a while ago. Actually, I am sure there is another thread with the same info, plus what containers we used. Still, here I go again (to the best of my recollection):
(recreational catagory)
28 foot 7-TU
Papillon
Django Pegasus 223
an 8-cell 200 square foot FTS prototype
Bogy 9 200
Bogy 9 175
Bogy 9 150 (two of them)
Excallibur 150
Monarch 135 (two of them)
Sabre 135 (two of them)
APS Shark 110
Stilleto 107
Stilleto 97
Alpha 84 and Icarus VX 74
Cobalt 85
H-mod Cobalt 75, plus Competition Cobalt 65 and 75
(demo catagory)
Laser 7 250
Laser 9 230
StarTrac 1
(tandems)
Hi Lifter 360
PD 421
Tandem 500
EZ-384
Icarus 360
Cobalt Tandem 350
(work catagory)
MT1-XX
MC-4
SOVEC
No way in the world I am about to dig through and see how many on each type. I currently have just at 2900 skydives and wingload my 75's at between 2.23 and 2.3.
Chuck
My webpage HERE

[axe96bam 0]

Rap,
I had in mind the plethora of people with under 200 jumps who have never thought a student or jumped anything loaded (as well as they should not be jumping anything heavily loaded). I usually looked at the full profiles of people and also at their posts. I am an instructor as well and I give very conservative advice to students. And yes, I would put a high priority on a comment made by a fellow instructor.
Alex

[rapper4mpi 0]

Gotta love those Excalliburs, actually they opened hard and packed large, but they were ahead of their time! Some of the first crossbraced out there.
-Rap

[wildblue 4]

Pammi
All the canopy nazis are saying is that it's not a good idea to go small quickly. They're not calling you stupid, don't take it personal. They've seen people do that and get hurt, and they're trying to impress that upon others. She's not saying everyone that does gets killed or screwed up for life, but enough do/have that she's going to preach being conservative to lessen the chances of someone getting hurt.
And this isn't an exclusive club - I could point you to a group of motorcyclists that, when a new rider asks "Is a R6 a good bike to start with" - everyone yells "No!" People get hurt/killed doing that, but evenone thinks "No, if I'm careful it's fine" - which is true for the majority of people that do it anyway. But if it's not true for, let's say 1 out of 50 people - isn't that still too many people dying? Add to the problem that you now have 49 people saying "I did it, and you'll be fine too" - problem is, that 1 person isn't around to say "Don't!" so someone else has to.
Wow.. I just completely rambled for way too long. Hope the point didn't get lost in there. Composing meaningful posts at work is tough
Generally speaking, you aren't learning much when your mouth is moving

[rapper4mpi 0]

Yeah that is what I figured, BUT I still know that I am always learning in this sport. Always.
-Rap

[axe96bam 0]

Rap. I agree with you that all we do is learn. If we stop learning we will get complacent and might get hurt. There is just so much to learn out there.
Alex

[rapper4mpi 0]

Well folks, I'm going to sign off for the week. Everyone be safe and have excellent jumps. I think a good question to ask that hot swooper out their would be to see what their personal canopy progression was. I think we all may be surprised.
-Rap

[Sebazz1 2]

Yup and Yup...............
Now let's us go jump our brains out
SEBAZZ.......

[Merrick 0]

Well put Zennie!
I, like many others, had no intention of taking this thread in this direction.... What got me was the response to a few OBVIOUS jokes. I think that a self-proclaimed Canopy Natzi, ANTI-CN, or even pimp should, at the least, be able to take a joke every now & then about their proclamation. I don't know if it's because of the heightened # of users on the forum, or if it's something else.... but everyone seems to be a LOT more easily agitated these days, quick to become defensive, and sometimes downright mean! Don't believe me, just search this forum for all the threads with the word *LOCKED* in them.
As for the whole downsizing too fast debacle, I think Zennie's right, not only Lisa, but a lot of others on this site & at the dropzone have been around the sport WAAY longer than most others... and seen a lot of things that many of us have only had nightmares about. But, I think that we all should take any advice about how to correct problems, freefall skills, CANOPY SKILLS, or anything else on here with a grain of salt….. that is until we’re able to talk to those who really know how we fly, & what we’re all about. There is a TON of great advice on this site, and almost all of that advice that’s worth anything does come from those who are seasoned in the sport (like Lisa for instance). However, some of the advice given at times feels more abusive and is projected with an “all knowing” attitude, rather than maybe a little constructive criticism. Here’s what it boils down to, a life lesson if you will (not just a skydiving one)… You can give someone your opinion, and regardless of how educated & experienced it may be, they have the God-given right to ignore that and make their own decision, it’s called free-will. It’s when you start forcing your opinions on them & trying to make them feel stupid for their decisions that your ‘advice’ may be dismissed, and can cause you to be the butt of a joke at times. Ultimately they’re going to take the opinions & advice of those that they see at the DZ every weekend & form their decisions accordingly. That’s what I did, and what everyone I know has done. There’s no need for anyone to get upset if their advice is ignored or if someone makes a joke of it…. How many people do you know, people that actually care about you, that have said you shouldn’t be skydiving at all? Did you listen to them? Pam has been told (by more than one person) that she’s irresponsible for skydiving! Whatever, opinions are like ass-holes…. WHUFFOS!
Another thing to remember is that just because someone is downsizing doesn’t mean that they’re planning to join the Para-Performance Tour. Now if they fly a VX…FX….XXX something, OK maybe I’ll give you that one. I have NEVER hooked a landing (intentional or not), and I don’t plan to either. It’s all about risk, having a wife & two wonderful step-kids, that’s just one added risk that I’m going to stay away from. However, a Sabre 190 can make you just as dead as a VX76 (or some other handkerchief canopy)
Blues!
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[Pammi 0]

Lisa, I've apologized I believe at least three times here. You yourself said you were in a bad mood, so perhaps I'm not the only one at fault, although I AM the only one who's offered an apology. I didn't give you the name canopynazi, either. I also never said I didn't think you had good intentions. Just that you don't like when someone disagrees with them. I don't consider myself any less safety conscience and I definately don't think I'm less concerned about others' safety. I, do, however respect a person's right to choose without giving them a hard time about it or making them feel irresponsible for their decision.
I've been accused of being foolish and irresponsible for skydiving at all. Perhaps I should quit. They know better then I what is good for me.
Argh! I'm sorry..I keep saying I'm going to quit even looking at this thread. I promise everyone else...I'm shutting up on this. This is almost as bad as the ole' Cypres debate. Don't want to be a muck dragger, with the moderator no less :) Have a good weekend!
New pin jewelry!