hard opening help

[mcordell 2]

When I got into the sport, my dad, who owned and operated a dz where I grew up, got back into jumping after having sold his gear a few years before. When he ran his dz he had raven mains and reserves for all his student gear and decided thats what he wanted. We ordered a raven 4 main and raven 3 reserve for his rig...with microline. He was having extremely hard openings so we swapped his slider for a large collapsible zp slider which helped very little...but some. He is still having extremely hard openings. George Galloway told me on the phone the other day that as far as he knows these are the only 2 ravens ever built with microline. Understanding they are intended to open fast, without replacing the line is there any way to slow down the openings? We have tried different packing methods and are going to try the precision pack but with the outside 3 nose openings rolled away from center. Would pockets on the slider help? We are about out of ideas.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[piisfish 135]

maybe get a modern decent canopy ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mattjw916 2]

Quote

maybe get a modern decent canopy ?

this

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mcordell 2]

piisfish

maybe get a modern decent canopy ?

Thanks. That was a bundle of help. When you have been in the sport longer than he has I am sure he will welcome your canopy advice.

I am asking a legitimate question about how to slow the opening of an existing canopy. While I'm sure there are some out there than feel a guy with 40 years in the sport "ain't shit" if he isn't jumping a 60 sq ft canopy and swooping a pit of crocodiles, I feel I should point out that gear selection is a personal choice and he likes the raven. When it was ordered he didn't realize the microline would cause such hard openings. Short of relining the canopy I am simply asking if anyone has some actual helpful advice as to how to slow the openings.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[likestojump 3]

Adjust the attitude.
Get a modern canopy.
Fact check. I had dozens of spectra lined Ravens. (Microline is PD's marketing term)

[RiggerLee 61]

As I recall there was no difference between the raven main and reserve. All the way down to the fact that they all had bridal attachments. Back in the time frame when they were jumped as mains most canopies had Dacron lines. Later the people that continued to jump them as mains were looking for a mellow canopy that they could do crw with or a student canopy and again I can't recall any having micro lines on them. But there were a whole shit load built with micro line and packed as reserves. It's not an unusual configuration. Now if you're expecting it to open with ether line type like a modern snivally main you're bound for disappointment. In stock configuration Dacron or mico line the canopy will meet the TSOc-23b requirments. That means it opens hard.

Now having said that. Here are some things you might try.

You say you've tried a larger slider. That's a good start but it's more complicated then that. How was it larger? Front to back? Side to side? What were the dimensions like relative to the center cell width and the stab between b an c? The slider can be the wrong shape or even just flat out too big.

Was it a "flat" slider because you might have better luck with a domed/pleated slider. And Again was it pleated in one direction or two and by how much? Yes, it can be too much.

Have you tried modifying a slider to a flag slider? It's a big open nose. Reducing the air flow into that large nose might be far more affective then trying to build a mongo big domes slider. Bottom line is that the slider has to be dominant over the canopy for the first half of the opening. By adding a flag you are reducing the power of the canopy rather then trying to over power it with a larger slider.

Ok, here's one of the simplest ones. Have you played with the break lines? Changing the break setting is one of the easiest parameters to adjust on the opening of the canopy. There are a lot of things at play but as a general rule of thumb, canopies open softer at a shallow break setting. There is a bell curve where as the break setting gets deeper the opening gets faster and then when it's very deep it actually gets softer again. There are other issues with stability and surge that can also be driving issues. You would have to play with it but it's the easiest thing to play with. Keep in mind that this is not my canopy. George could give you far better advice so why are you asking all of us?

I'm a base jumper. And further more I'm kind of an old school base jumper who used to modify skydiving canopies. So I'm not one of those stuck up little pricks that will tell you that all skydiving seven cells are shit. Super ravens are perfectly good canopies but they are what they are. If you want you're canopy to be some thing else, like consistent soft openings, Then buy a different canopy. The technology has advanced over the last twenty five years. And there are canopies with equivalent or even better characteristics today. You can get a very nice canopy that is not a rocket ship and will have better manners then a raven.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[mcordell 2]

likestojump

Adjust the attitude.
Get a modern canopy.
Fact check. I had dozens of spectra lined Ravens. (Microline is PD's marketing term)

Again, he likes ravens. That's the canopy he wanted and purchased for himself. It should have been ordered with different lines but because it wasn't, see the question I posted above. If new lines are the only solution then thats what we will do but I don't think he should buy a new lineset unless it really is the only option.

Could someone please let me know if there are any ideas as to how to slow the opening of his raven 4. If you don't have any ideas that's fine.

As for the "fact check", I didn't say they were the only 2. I said George Galloway told me they were the only 2 he knew of. If you had dozens then they can't be too bad of a canopy choice in your eyes.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[topdocker 0]

mcordell

***maybe get a modern decent canopy ?

Thanks. That was a bundle of help. When you have been in the sport longer than he has I am sure he will welcome your canopy advice.

I am asking a legitimate question about how to slow the opening of an existing canopy. While I'm sure there are some out there than feel a guy with 40 years in the sport "ain't shit" if he isn't jumping a 60 sq ft canopy and swooping a pit of crocodiles, I feel I should point out that gear selection is a personal choice and he likes the raven. When it was ordered he didn't realize the microline would cause such hard openings. Short of relining the canopy I am simply asking if anyone has some actual helpful advice as to how to slow the openings.

That is a legitimate answer. You just don't want to hear that there may have been a poor selection of equipment. Back in the 80's, a Raven was a good, solid canopy. but today, the technologies have evolved and there are much better selections available.

It's hard to imagine an F-111 canopy opening hard, especially a Raven, they had such a reputation for slow openings. (Back in the day standard, not today's standard.) Is it F-111?

top

Jump more, post less!

[mcordell 2]

topdocker

******maybe get a modern decent canopy ?

Thanks. That was a bundle of help. When you have been in the sport longer than he has I am sure he will welcome your canopy advice.

I am asking a legitimate question about how to slow the opening of an existing canopy. While I'm sure there are some out there than feel a guy with 40 years in the sport "ain't shit" if he isn't jumping a 60 sq ft canopy and swooping a pit of crocodiles, I feel I should point out that gear selection is a personal choice and he likes the raven. When it was ordered he didn't realize the microline would cause such hard openings. Short of relining the canopy I am simply asking if anyone has some actual helpful advice as to how to slow the openings.

That is a legitimate answer. You just don't want to hear that there may have been a poor selection of equipment. Back in the 80's, a Raven was a good, solid canopy. but today, the technologies have evolved and there are much better selections available.

It's hard to imagine an F-111 canopy opening hard, especially a Raven, they had such a reputation for slow openings. (Back in the day standard, not today's standard.) Is it F-111?

top

All ravens are f111. It sure does open hard though. I have to edit the profanity out of our videos.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[mcordell 2]

RiggerLee

As I recall there was no difference between the raven main and reserve. All the way down to the fact that they all had bridal attachments. Back in the time frame when they were jumped as mains most canopies had Dacron lines. Later the people that continued to jump them as mains were looking for a mellow canopy that they could do crw with or a student canopy and again I can't recall any having micro lines on them. But there were a whole shit load built with micro line and packed as reserves. It's not an unusual configuration. Now if you're expecting it to open with ether line type like a modern snivally main you're bound for disappointment. In stock configuration Dacron or mico line the canopy will meet the TSOc-23b requirments. That means it opens hard.

Now having said that. Here are some things you might try.

You say you've tried a larger slider. That's a good start but it's more complicated then that. How was it larger? Front to back? Side to side? What were the dimensions like relative to the center cell width and the stab between b an c? The slider can be the wrong shape or even just flat out too big.

Was it a "flat" slider because you might have better luck with a domed/pleated slider. And Again was it pleated in one direction or two and by how much? Yes, it can be too much.

Have you tried modifying a slider to a flag slider? It's a big open nose. Reducing the air flow into that large nose might be far more affective then trying to build a mongo big domes slider. Bottom line is that the slider has to be dominant over the canopy for the first half of the opening. By adding a flag you are reducing the power of the canopy rather then trying to over power it with a larger slider.

Ok, here's one of the simplest ones. Have you played with the break lines? Changing the break setting is one of the easiest parameters to adjust on the opening of the canopy. There are a lot of things at play but as a general rule of thumb, canopies open softer at a shallow break setting. There is a bell curve where as the break setting gets deeper the opening gets faster and then when it's very deep it actually gets softer again. There are other issues with stability and surge that can also be driving issues. You would have to play with it but it's the easiest thing to play with. Keep in mind that this is not my canopy. George could give you far better advice so why are you asking all of us?

I'm a base jumper. And further more I'm kind of an old school base jumper who used to modify skydiving canopies. So I'm not one of those stuck up little pricks that will tell you that all skydiving seven cells are shit. Super ravens are perfectly good canopies but they are what they are. If you want you're canopy to be some thing else, like consistent soft openings, Then buy a different canopy. The technology has advanced over the last twenty five years. And there are canopies with equivalent or even better characteristics today. You can get a very nice canopy that is not a rocket ship and will have better manners then a raven.

Lee

It is larger front to rear. It was sent to us by precision after I talked to George the first time. The reason I asked here is because George's advice on the next step was a new line set and I wanted to get other options before we do that. There is a lot of knowledge on this board from which to draw. I have never heard of a flag slider but we may try a domed slider. Thanks!

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[Maksimsf 0]

My first canopy that I jumped after rental was F111 PD-260 with may be 20 jumps on it that I got free. I was getting slammers doing hop and pops . We installed huge tandem slider - sub terminal opening was ok after that, but terminal was still bad. Another option was to reline it with Dacron to slow the slider down a little bit, but it's not worth it. I got rid of it and got a Spectre.

[mcordell 2]

Maksimsf

My first canopy that I jumped after rental was F111 PD-260 with may be 20 jumps on it that I got free. I was getting slammers doing hop and pops . We installed huge tandem slider - sub terminal opening was ok after that, but terminal was still bad. Another option was to reline it with Dacron to slow the slider down a little bit, but it's not worth it. I got rid of it and got a Spectre.

Funny thing is we assumed it was the lack of stretch in spectre that causes the problem. George said spectre is slippery and the slider comes down it faster. I would never have guessed it was a friction issue

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[theonlyski 3]

mcordell

Funny thing is we assumed it was the lack of stretch in spectre that causes the problem. George said spectre is slippery and the slider comes down it faster. I would never have guessed it was a friction issue

You could try the pocket slider, I know the one I put on a guys Sabre-170 made it open like a whole new canopy.

What kind of grommets does the slider have?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[mcordell 2]

They are brass. I have heard theories about ss opening faster. Not sure how valid that is but these are brass

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[SEREJumper 1]

Mell at skyworksrigging.com may be able to help you with a domed slider for a Raven. Give him a call.

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[piisfish 135]

sorry if my reply is not what you wanted to hear. My opinion, even if I haven't been in the activity for 40 years, is valid. At least for me.
If changing canopy is not an option, and relining would be a "last ressource", changing the slider would be one of the ways to get things going.
Larger slider is not "always" better. Sometimes smaller slider could work.
But having an "elderly" (no disrespect here) jumper acting as a test jumper is not, in my opinion again, the most reasonable alternative.
Maybe try to set him up with a demo Spectre with dacron lines. He might like it as much as the Raven. and keep the Raven for the good memories.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Bluhdow 31]

Can anyone please tell me how I can get my Flik 242 to swoop better? I'm not interested in changing canopies. Maybe if I cut it in half spanwise? Put tape over the vents? Maybe I should rub butter on the lines so it moves through the air more smoothly?

By the time you're done messing with this thing you'll have spent more time/energy/money then it would have taken to grab a used Spectre off of the classifieds.

Apex BASE
#1816

[mjosparky 3]

The type of lines have very little to do with how hard a canopy opens. Some types of line will transfer the opening forces to the jumper more than others.

To slow it down check your packing and make sure that the slider grommets are tight against the stops.

See about having this mod done….it will make a huge difference.

Sparky

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Skydiving/Cablelanding1.jpg

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mcordell 2]

SEREJumper

Mell at skyworksrigging.com may be able to help you with a domed slider for a Raven. Give him a call.

Thanks! I was trying to find a dome slider when I saw your reply and called immediately. I think he's going to be great to work with and was very helpful. I'm starting to remember why I quit logging in here though....this was a good reminder that sometimes it's not worth it to ask a simple question. Maybe I will just start sending my questions in PMs to the few people I have had decent exchanges with

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[JeffCa 0]

mcordell

I have jumped ravens. Tons of jumpers have. I have never had them open so hard I'm concerned about injury.

I don't have anything useful to add to this conversation, but for my own interest and possible future reference, I'd like to discuss this quote (from a post that has now been deleted).

How do you know you don't have a defect? Is it possible that the canopy just wasn't made to correct spec? I've read stories on this forum about canopies that regularly opened hard for no apparent reason. They get sent back to the factory for inspection, and sometimes the manufacturer just replaces it with another one. I think one story said that the factory test jumper who was jumping it for the investigation ended up with an injury himself because it opened hard for him too.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[mcordell 2]

JeffCa

***I have jumped ravens. Tons of jumpers have. I have never had them open so hard I'm concerned about injury.

I don't have anything useful to add to this conversation, but for my own interest and possible future reference, I'd like to discuss this quote (from a post that has now been deleted).

How do you know you don't have a defect? Is it possible that the canopy just wasn't made to correct spec? I've read stories on this forum about canopies that regularly opened hard for no apparent reason. They get sent back to the factory for inspection, and sometimes the manufacturer just replaces it with another one. I think one story said that the factory test jumper who was jumping it for the investigation ended up with an injury himself because it opened hard for him too.

I don't know that there isn't a defect. I spoke with George and he thinks the spectra lines are to blame. I suppose it is possible there is something else wrong. If the slider doesn't help I may have to just send it back to be checked. And your question did add to the discussion so thanks.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[likestojump 3]

mcordell

I have jumped ravens. Tons of jumpers have. I have never had them open so hard I'm concerned about injury.

You are full of contradictions. I too have jumped plenty of ravens. And I feel they open noticeably harder than a modern skydiving canopy. After all, they were designed and tested as reserves, right ?

You can put larger slider, dacron lines, baffle the nose and customize your deployment brakes. And many $100's of dollars later you will still have a highly customized 1980's design canopy.

I know the whole "old dogs don't like new tricks" attitude. And it doesn't work too well when you are talking about things that can kill you. At one point, you have to move with the progress. I recommend unbunching the undies and getting a more modern canopy.

[mattjw916 2]

Bluhdow

Can anyone please tell me how I can get my Flik 242 to swoop better? I'm not interested in changing canopies. Maybe if I cut it in half spanwise? Put tape over the vents? Maybe I should rub butter on the lines so it moves through the air more smoothly?

By the time you're done messing with this thing you'll have spent more time/energy/money then it would have taken to grab a used Spectre off of the classifieds.

Yeup... no matter how much money I spend working on my 38 year old Chevy... it's still a 38 year old Chevy....

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[DJL 232]

This is putting good money after bad, as a card player would say. Drop the hand and ante up for the next one, the gear is bad, not your ol' man.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

The type of lines have very little to do with how hard a canopy opens.

Sparky,
I could not disagree with you more!

Have you ever jumped a canopy with Spectra and changed it over Technora or even Dacron and then jumped the same canopy?

I'm betting not by your response above.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com