Right of way

[Hooknswoop 19]

A friend asked me recently, who has right of way?, the jumpship or the canopy?
From the airman's Information Manual:
If the aircraft are of different categories --
(1) A balloon has the right-of-way over any other category of aircraft;
(2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, airplane, or rotorcraft; and
(3) An airship has the right-of-way over an airplane or rotorcraft.
I don't think there is any doubt, legal or common sense, that a canopy has right of way over an aircraft. Of course this doesn't mean go head-to-head with an aircraft just to make them go-around. Avoid the runway and avoid the situation all together. But if an aircraft hits a skydiver under canopy, (I was on a DZ when this happened) excluding right after opening, it is the aircraft pilot's fault.
Hook

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Would have been nice if someone had mentioned this to the glider pilot at Hinton.
Wynona's got herself a big brown beaver
and she shows it off to all her friends ....

[bbarnhouse 0]

um hummmmmmm!!
And once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward......

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

excluding right after opening

I guess thats debateable but I think the fault is at least shared at this point.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[Hooknswoop 19]

Diverdriver or Quade could do a MUCH better job w/ this one, but I think most gliders don't have a radio, they aren't required to have one. They sure couldn't see, and wouldn't be looking for a skydiver in freefall to come down on them. I don't know if gliders have to have or if they have transponders (a device that tells Air traffic Control where and how high an aircraft is) or if ATC can see a composite glider on radar.
Skydivers are SUPPOSED to look down before exit to make sure a) the spot is good, b) check for cliuds, and c) make sure there isn't a traffic conflict with aircraft.
So far the "big sky theory" has kept free-fall/aircraft collisions to 2 that I know of.
I have flown an aircraft w/ no electrical system (a piper cub) which means no transponder, no radio, no nothing. If I wasn't a skydiver or the average pilot that has zero clue what parachute operations entail, it would have been very easy for me to overfly a DZ and create a very serious hazard, legally. At that point, who is responsible to avoid a collision? Wouldn't have seen a skydiver and if (not being a skydiver) would probably have said "what the hell is that?" in time for them to go through the wing.
Hook

[quade 4]

The Rule of the Road and Right of Way issues go back to maritime laws which generally held that the least maneuverable craft had the right of way.
In the case of a parachute v. aircraft collision, I think it's pretty obvious which is the one that can best avoid the other.
For freefall skydiver v. aircraft, I believe it would be the other way round.
All of this said, just as it would be stupid to insist on your right of way as a pedestrian in front of a speeding semi, it would be foolish to assume that an aircraft would move out of your way just because you were under a parachute.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[freeflir29 0]

Yep...thats the problem. I just wrote a safety article that should be up on the Skydive Atlanta web site soon. Too many VFR pilots out there that just don't know what they are doing and don't have radios. They don't bother putting any thought into parachute operations. The sky is only getting more and more crowded. Whats the answer....I don't know. I do however know that it can be pretty tough to spot a Cessna at 3000 Ft on a day with nice white puffies. Something needs to be done.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Diverdriver or Quade could do a MUCH better job w/ this one, but I think most gliders don't have a radio, they aren't required to have one.

Correct. At Hinckley, we share the runway with a glider operation. The student gliders do not have radios or transponders. Most of the private gliders have radios, some have both radios and transponders.
It generally isn't an issue because we sort out the jumprun with the glider center each day. The only time they'rd in "our" space is when they're on approach for landing. It should only be an issue if someone goes WAY low, like cypres low.
Landing 50 feet to the right of a glider is a rush, let me tell you.
_Am
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[quade 4]

Quote

. . . but I think most gliders don't have a radio, they aren't required to have one.

Ya lost me -- what does having a radio have to do with it?
quade
http://futurecam.com

[freeflir29 0]

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what does having a radio have to do with it?

"Thomaston Upson County traffic this is Otter 221AP, Jumpers over Thomaston 14,000 and below in one minute."
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[chronistin 0]

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An airship has the right-of-way over an airplane or rotorcraft.

Could someone please explain the term "airship" to me?
thx
chronistin

*************************************
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[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Could someone please explain the term "airship" to me?

Blimp, digirable and the zeplin, are all examples of "airships".
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Hooknswoop 19]

"In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
what does having a radio have to do with it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Thomaston Upson County traffic this is Otter 221AP, Jumpers over Thomaston 14,000 and below in one minute." "
Right.
I excluded right after opening from the blame of a canopy/aircraft collision being the aircraft's fault.
A conflict between a landing canopy and a glider is a no-win, it isn't like the glider can go-around.
This is an issue skydivers and pilots (I would say the USPA but they are more worried about getting control of Tandem ratings) should think about and come up with an answer before the FAA looks into it and comes up with an answer.
Hook

[billvon 2,772]

"Thomaston Upson County traffic this is Otter 221AP, Jumpers over Thomaston 14,000 and below in one minute."

Helpful, if the pilot happens to be listening to unicom. Some do, some don't. There is no requirement to.

-bill von

[billvon 2,772]

>Whats the answer....I don't know. I do however know that it can be pretty tough
> to spot a Cessna at 3000 Ft on a day with nice white puffies. Something needs
> to be done.
I agree. The answer - do not jump if you cannot clear your airspace, for as far away as you need to clear it (several few miles for a jump from 12.5, maybe a mile for a hop and pop.)
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

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There is no requirement to.

Thats why I have been racking my brain on how to get ahold of this situation before "Big Brother" does. Or someone gets killed. There has to be some type of positive deconfliction. Right now I feel like I am playing Russian Rhoulette every time I get out of the plane.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[Hooknswoop 19]

""Thomaston Upson County traffic this is Otter 221AP, Jumpers over Thomaston 14,000 and below in one minute."
Helpful, if the pilot happens to be listening to unicom. Some do, some don't. There is no requirement to."
Right, Quade asked what a radio had to do with it, if they have one and tuune it to the unicom/approach freq, at least they would be aware of parachute operations. Without a radio they could be blissfully flying directly under jumpers. I don't have time to do the math, but I bet jumpers could spot and jump, maintaining VFR minimums and still hit a glider(or other aircraft) that flys out from under a cloud.
Hook

[chronistin 0]

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Blimp, digirable and the zeplin, are all examples of "airships".

thanks, Andy! As a non-native-Speaker of the manifold english language, I had imagined an "airship" to be a really large plane :-(
Chronistin (shuddering at the thought of meeting a 767 while in Freefall)

*************************************
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[freeflir29 0]

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do not jump if you cannot clear your airspace

Uuuummmm....I spent almost 7 years learning how to spot tiny, high subsonic aircraft from the ground. Even with calls from the pilot telling you altitude and direction it can be tough. I'm not too confident that someone, trained or untrained, can EVER positively clear the airspace visually. Even if it is a slow moving white Cessna. Leaving it all up to the skydiver just isn't acceptable.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[billvon 2,772]

>Right now I feel like I am playing Russian Rhoulette every time I get out of the
> plane.
I generally don't feel that way. I've taken loads around several times for traffic; it doesn't seem hard to pick it out of the background. When I fly, I can pick up traffic that's miles away, and I actually have a better view from the door than out the windscreen of the plane (less dirt.)
>but I bet jumpers could spot and jump, maintaining VFR minimums and still hit a
> glider(or other aircraft) that flys out from under a cloud.
I agree; a good solution would be to not jump near clouds unless you're sure there's no aircraft under them. We used to have Terry at the drop zone to make sure of that - the border patrol would sometimes try to sneak a helicopter under the clouds.
-bill von

[Hooknswoop 19]

A ground observer with a radio.................
Jumpers look center of clouds-up, ground observer, center of clouds down? A possible solution?
Thoughts?
Hook

[billvon 2,772]

>Uuuummmm....I spent almost 7 years learning how to spot tiny, high subsonic
> aircraft from the ground.
Well, but fortunately the aircraft we're looking for are low and slow, and generally want to be seen.
> I'm not too confident that someone, trained or untrained, can EVER positively
>clear the airspace visually. Even if it is a slow moving white Cessna.
It's been working for VFR flying for 50 years now, and we have better visibility than most aircraft.
>Leaving it all up to the skydiver just isn't acceptable.
There is another option - IFR clearance for all jumps. You must request, and get, clearance from ATC before the jump, and the space you are flying in must be restricted. Of course, if you don't get clearance, you can't jump, and there can be no jumping outside those restricted areas. Figure it would take a year to declare a new DZ and get it onto the charts.
I prefer the way we do it now to that.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

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A ground observer with a radio......

That would help....but I don't think it's all that practical. I mean....does your DZ staff have an extra person to spare for this duty ALL day long? I doubt it. I think educating pilots and maybe making an airspace around DZ's is the answer. I hardly think it is too much to ask for a pilot to listen to a radio. At least a portable.....
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[freeflir29 0]

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I prefer the way we do it now to that.

So do I....and all that crap is what I am trying to avoid yet make things a little safer.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Every pilot putting an aircraft up should be reviewing the sectionals for thier intended route/region in which they fly - ignorance, be it in a commerical pilot, a private pilot or even a glider pilot, is no excuse. One could argue that we should become familiar with these as well - looks as if there is a V-way running right north of SDC- good to know, since you can then expect a moderate level of air traffic passing through.
See attached - find Ottawa, look East of it and you will see Skydive Chicago (8N2) mentioned - you will see a small single runway airport with a strip running about 3/21 with a parachute next to it. This is an indication to avoid the area unless you like dodging parachutes.