Reporters In Chicago Running Amuck....

[ADRNALN 0]

I have canceled my tribune subscription.

[wildblue 4]

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Funny that Roger is getting beat up for his reputation. When I saw him at the Mardi Gras Boogie he talked

It's one thing to talk, it's another to do.
While we could all sit here and "arm-chair quarterback" all day long, Roger (and his staff) are the only ones who can actually take action to make SDC a safer place. It's a shame that SDC's fine facilities, awesome fliers, and intense training program are over-shadowed by all the bad things that happen there.

If things don't change, this kind of thing will continue to happen. I remember on the wreck-dot last year someone suggested building a hanging-harness to beat all hanging-harnesses - something that will put you on your back and spin you around while you fight to find your handles and cut-away. I heard Roger was actually working on something like that. I'd make the 5 hour trip just for a ride in that thing. C'mon, if you can afford to have leather couches in your decked-out "VIP Lounge" - surely you can put some money into something that could save lives.

So what else could be done? Seriously - everyone wants to bash Roger for one reason or another - what would you do in his place? Make a minimum jump # for doing hook turns? Have someone sign you off before you can swoop the pond? Make a more "swooping-friendly" pond somewhere else in that 230 acres of land? (Have you seen the pond at SDC? Surrounded by trees, tents, docks, etc) You want more regulations or more freedom? Like Chris said, you can't have it both ways.
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The only thing I have to say about the original intent of this thread - like it or not, the story is newsworthy. Way too many jumpers have died there in the past few years, one of which had an array or drugs in his system, Roger has a history running drugs... it's not that big of a leap people. As annoying as it may be, the media can't just report baseball scores all day - they're going to dig and come up with stories, real or imagined.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[freeflir29 0]

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I have canceled my tribune subscription

Just make sure you write to the editor and tell them why! Otherwise...you are just another person that cancelled.....

[diverdriver 5]

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I remember on the wreck-dot last year someone suggested building a hanging-harness to beat all hanging-harnesses - something that will put you on your back and spin you around while you fight to find your handles and cut-away. I heard Roger was actually working on something like that. I'd make the 5 hour trip just for a ride in that thing. C'mon, if you can afford to have leather couches in your decked-out "VIP Lounge" - surely you can put some money into something that could save lives.

Wildblue, I agree with everything you said. Actually, we do have a hanging harness now that we can spin people around in. I can't say that we feel it's "finished". There are plans on modifying it. Remember, Bill Booth worked for I think 10 years on modifying his Tandem system to get rid of the out of sequence deployment of drogue and main. He finally finished it and put it out when it was ready called the Sigma.

But....that is being worked on too. The hanging/spinning harness is being worked on.

Chris

[wildblue 4]

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Actually, we do have a hanging harness now that we can spin people around in. I can't say that we feel it's "finished".

It ain't finsihed until it can make you black-out, puke, or shit your pants! Just make sure it gets locked up when the drinking starts

Is it portable? Can you put it in the deck and have it throw you into the pond when you cut-away!? heheh...

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[diverdriver 5]

Hey now that's a thought. mmmm.....

[fasterfaller 0]

I remember a few years back when Skydive Arizona had a bunch of jumpers die in a one year period . There were two in one day and there was three or for more that year . I do not remember a mention of it in any of the papers . I think the reason for the decline in the deaths at Eloy is due to a declining number of jumpers since more and more dz's have turbine aircraft . I dot not remember any of the local jumpers ever dyeing at Eloy , it always seems to be a visitor showing off for the locals .

[FallingILweenie 0]

OK, i didn't see it posted anywhere, but I think that the guy who died swooping at SDC had something like 1500 jumps (correct me, please, if i am wrong--I remember seeing it on an article somewhere). So, my question is why are people saying he shouldn't have been doing it? I haven't been to SDC so I don't know if the pond is really hard to swoop or what, but at 1500 jumps there aer a lot of people that know how to swoop. It's not like someone with 80 jumps tried it and went in, where everyone can point a finger at the dz saying "why didn't you tell him not to". I don't mean to trivialize the fact a man is dead, or demean it in any way, but basically to me this is a case of a guy who tried to swoop, that knew what he was doing, and miscalculated....it could happen to anyoen that tries to swoop at any dz. The fact it happened at SDC is merely coincidental. Just an opinion based on what i have heard.

blue skies
Tomas

[wildblue 4]

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OK, i didn't see it posted anywhere, but I think that the guy who died swooping at SDC had something like 1500 jumps

a) Jump numbers don't mean anything. I know people with thousands and thousands of jumps who have never attempted a high-performance landing.

b) It is not the best pond for swooping. This is the only picture I can find right now. Unless it's changed, there's really only one 'lane' you can take, and even then, there's been more than one canopy eaten by a tree

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[diverdriver 5]

Here is a pic I took of the pond although it doesn't show the whole dock or all the trees that are around it.

Yes, he had at least 1,500 jumps. That many jumps does not mean they have the skill and proficiency to try to swoop this pond.

[bbarnhouse 0]

Eloy has not seen a decline in jumpers, in fact just the opposite. You are correct in your statement that the local jumpers aren't the ones dying.
It is also a fact that Eloy has had its share of fatalities

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a bunch

.....NO, but there were 3 and not in a years time. The fact also remains that statistically speaking, the fatality rate at SDC is high. No one disputes that. I would hope that we all could post only what we know to be true in instances such as these. Innueno and misinformation only stirs the pot. As Sgt. Friday would say........"just the facts ma'm"

[dreamsville 0]

Swooping is a learned technique just like anything else. If you have little or no experience with free flying you can be dangerous, and swooping, especially in that pond, is the same way.

Number of jumps for faster, riskier aspects of our sport is no indicator of success if there is little practice in the given area, as I understand is the case for this jumper in swoops generally. I have about 1150 jumps but don't practice performance swoops. I'd never think to attempt what Ron did without way more practice than I have in that stuff.

Harry Higbie

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[BillyBob 0]

Even though I have never been to Chicago, I have heard all about their nice planes and facilities. I have heard all sorts of stories about Roger from many different people, some good and some pretty bad. I'm sure he is very well liked by some people in this sport. But as I read this article I began to think about how many millions of dollars worth of drugs he flew into the United States before he got caught. How many kids in this country died because of the drugs that he flew in? If he was the leader of a large drug smuggling ring how much you wanna bet that he committed more than just drug smuggling. One thing I don't understand is how he spent less than 10 years in prison for what he did? To me it seems like he should've spent the rest of his life behind bars. The article also stated that Roger was still allowed to only keep half of his profits from running drugs. Assuming that this is true I think it would be safe to assume that Skydive Chicago was built with drug money.
I am not saying the SDC is a bad place or that its safety record is a reflection of how Roger runs his DZ. Its just that the crimes he committed were very serious. And it bugs me that he got off soo easily and was allowed to keep millions of dollars that he made by bringing poison into this country.

[ouroboros 0]

i agree with chris. go to skydive chicago. talk to the people who visit, live and jump there. get a feel for the place, walk in there sandles, sit by the pond. then, decide for yourself.

[christoofar 0]

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OK, i didn't see it posted anywhere, but I think that the guy who died swooping at SDC had something like 1500 jumps{/snip}

{beginrant}
High jump numbers have no meaning when it comes to whether you are capable of attempting a high-performance landing. If you don't believe me, pick up the phone and call Nancy LaRiviere.

Example:

Mr. 210lb Bigshot ex-Military Jumper has 2,500 jumps. Most of the early ones were on rounds. Then, the next 1,500 or so have been on F111s and large ZPs. Dude only does straight in approaches or the standard three-leg approach to land. Wonderful. He decides one day to play with the flymofos in the swoop pond and borrows a Stilleto 107 and swoop the pond. What do you think is going to happen in this situation? I wouldn't dare to watch it.

Even with all his experience under canopy, Mr. M is in no way, shape, or form capable of doing a high performance landing effectively and is putting himself at very high risk. His D license and all his canopy flight contributes very little in him achieving a successfull swoop. I wonder... is this why we see so many more fatalaties from experienced jumpers than from the student-end of the fatalaty/injury spectrum?

Swooping artists know how to fly their canopies well to the edge of their design parameters and have a keen sense of altitude and attitude awareness. The best artists work with large F111s or large ZPs until they exhaust the performance range, THEN work their way down to something faster, working on a better swoop each jump. Even then, this doesn't mean these guys and gals aren't going to get seriously injured or die when they biff, but it reduces the chances.

{/endrant}

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Remster 24]

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His D license and all his canopy flight contributes very little in him achieving a successfull swoop. I wonder... is this why we see so many more fatalaties from experienced jumpers than from the student-end of the fatalaty/injury spectrum?

Please Chris, stop seeing a USPA D licence as a demonstration of high experience.... all you need is 200 jumps plus basic skills to get one....

Remster

[christoofar 0]

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Please Chris, stop seeing a USPA D licence as a demonstration of high experience.... all you need is 200 jumps plus basic skills to get one....

Okay... we need an "USPA Approved SkyGod" license... like the USDA-Approved labels we put on our meat when we buy it at the store?

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[dida 0]

i'm not going to argue that anything in this article is not factual. to my knowledge, everything stated here is true. Roger's history with drugs is no secret - i was told the whole story by Ron Passmore himself. i wouldn't be surprised to find that Ron may have had alcohol or marijuana in his system when he was jumping. but this article insinuates that somehow there is a connection between the two. just because Roger has a history with drugs and a jumper at his drop zone had drugs in his system when he died doesn't mean the two are directly related. i don't see why the reporter found it necessary to juxtapose these two pieces of information the way he did (media whore...?).

spiral out...keep going...

[christoofar 0]

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i'm not going to argue that anything in this article is not factual. to my knowledge, everything stated here is true. Roger's history with drugs is no secret - i was told the whole story by Ron Passmore himself. i wouldn't be surprised to find that Ron may have had alcohol or marijuana in his system when he was jumping. but this article insinuates that somehow there is a connection between the two. just because Roger has a history with drugs and a jumper at his drop zone had drugs in his system when he died doesn't mean the two are directly related. i don't see why the reporter found it necessary to juxtapose these two pieces of information the way he did (media whore...?).

Whoever is at a medium-plus turbine-DZ or larger who DOESN'T know jumpers that play with drugs, raise their hand.

Anyone?

Anyone?


Heh.

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[PhreeZone 15]

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Whoever is at a medium-plus turbine-DZ or larger who DOESN'T know jumpers that play with drugs, raise their hand.

Anyone?

Anyone?

Right here... we have a no drug policy in effect at the DZ. If you are caught with drugs on the DZ... you get tossed off the DZ, its that simple. At the campfire there is all the beer you want, but no drugs at all. Staff signs a waiver that says they can have random drug tests and they obey it. Its well known the number of people thats been tossed from our DZ and no one wants to lose their playground so there are no drugs at all. We have a very family oriented atmosphere at the DZ and everyone does their part to keep that going, ie no flashing the pilot if tandems are on board, things like that. What fun jumpers do at home is hard to say, but its a nice feeling knowing that no one on the plane with you is stoned or drunk.

We've only got 2 Beech 18's, the occisional Otter and a Casa all summer long so I don't know how big we are.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wildblue 4]

[thump]
neeeeiiiigh
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neeigh
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neh
[thump]
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[thump][thump][whack][bang][omph][thump]

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[christoofar 0]

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Right here... we have a no drug policy in effect at the DZ.

Yeah, but that's for staff and when you actually catch people in the act, which is very cool. I wouldn't want the DZO, packers, pilots, coaches, tandem instructors or manifest under the influence of anything but adrenaline (nicotiene and caffiene is okay, too).

Like baseball players, we don't want to have to pee in a cup before we get on a load, but I personally know people who get on loads hungover or feeling really bad or still have after effects from being stoned. I can't do very much about it except refuse to board the plane and let them all land off the DZ.

These guys have way more jumps than I do... so I just keep my mouth shut and I stay away from them in the air. Do we really want to bother with drug testing the DZ customers? Is it worth it?

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[billvon 2,403]

> just because Roger has a history with drugs and a jumper at his
> drop zone had drugs in his system when he died doesn't mean the
> two are directly related.

Correct. However, they are certainly indirectly related (i.e. drugs were a factor in both instances.) The reporter did not imply a direct relationship; just mentioned that both had occurred. That's what a good reporter does, digs around and finds related material.

As an example, if someone kidnaps a child, and a reporter discovers that ten years ago that person worked for someone who had been arrested for child pornography, would you argue that it shouldn't be mentioned in the story since there might not be a direct relationship?

[sunshine 2]

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[thump]
neeeeiiiigh
[thump]
neeigh
[thump]
neh
[thump]
[thump]
[thump]
[thump]
...
[thump]
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[thump][thump][whack][bang][omph][thump]

I love it when you talk dirty.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[PhreeZone 15]

>Yeah, but that's for staff, which is very cool.

Its for more then just the staff. It applies to the fun jumpers too. If a fun jumper is caught with drugs... gone. Find another DZ. I've seen the DZO pull people aside and ask if they were on anything and once he got a responce he did'nt like and the jumper was gone. We take it seriously at the DZ with even the fun jumpers. We don't sign contracts like staff does... but we are under the same ethics. We have a lot of jumpers miss the first load or two recovering from the night before.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com