ChrisG 0 #126 September 13, 2002 Sorry folks, but that so called toxology report is BOGUS. There is absolutely NO national standards established that can accurately determine when someone is impared by pot. They can only tell you have it in your system. To state someone smoked a couple hours ago, because of a test, is totally ridiculous and cannot be proven. We all know that pot can stay in your system for up to six weeks. A test the next day after a evening of smoking, can and does show higher levels of THC, but it is impossible to accurately say when someone last smoked. It is also impossible to tell if the THC found in someones system is the psycoactive compound, since many variations are not. In other words, he could have a large ammount of non- psycoactive THC and not be stoned at all. The statements made by the lab director are his opinion only, and he has no way of backing up his statements with facts. To say this jumper died as a result of pot in his system is ridiculous. For more info- go to www.NORML.org CG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #127 September 13, 2002 QuoteTo say this jumper died as a result of pot in his system is ridiculous. So, this instructor... who has lots of jumps... just decided to smack the ground chest-first because {___________________}. A) he was an ass B) he had nothing better to do C) no apparent reason D) he decided to see what it would be like to act like an irrational student E) he smoked a bowl F) his canopy was collapsed by space aliens I don't think this "accident" makes a case of "Unsolved Mysteries" that Robert Stack would want to host. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #128 September 13, 2002 QuoteWe all know that pot can stay in your system for up to six weeks. We don't "all know that", because we don't all smoke pot. QuoteFor more info- go to www.NORML.org That is about the least credible link you could have given. If you really want to back up your case, find some objective documentation. If you call the lab director and the toxicology report into question, please provide alternative authoritative evidence to the contrary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisG 0 #129 September 13, 2002 QuoteQuoteTo say this jumper died as a result of pot in his system is ridiculous. So, this instructor... who has lots of jumps... just decided to smack the ground chest-first because {___________________}. A) he was an ass B) he had nothing better to do C) no apparent reason D) he decided to see what it would be like to act like an irrational student E) he smoked a bowl F) his canopy was collapsed by space aliens I don't think this "accident" makes a case of "Unsolved Mysteries" that Robert Stack would want to host. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #130 September 13, 2002 Look. I don't think pot smokers are bad people. I am for the legalization of marijuana; people who do pot are no different than those who drink to get a buzz. These people are harmless when their ass is at home and they are not bothering other people. But: when you smoke pot and operate heavy machinery, you endanger lives. when you smoke pot and make life or death decisions, you can kill yourself and other people SO when you smoke pot and jump out of an airplane, you are playing with the reaper. Capiche? . ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,178 #131 September 13, 2002 Christoofar wrote: A) he was an ass B) he had nothing better to do C) no apparent reason D) he decided to see what it would be like to act like an irrational student E) he smoked a bowl F) his canopy was collapsed by space aliens I think that the other poster's point is that we have a couple of pieces of the puzzle. He had marijuana in his system, and he died. Which of the options above apply to people who DIDN'T have pot or other drugs in their systems, and who nevertheless died skydiving? It's happened. You don't quit investigating a death simply because you find one thing that can be a causative factor. You look for all of them. Does that mean I think instructors should be toking before tandem jumps? Nope. But if we say that someone deserves what he gets because of a stupid action, well, others can point to stupid actions that WE do and say that we deserve what we get. No one here is immune to stupidity. Some of us don't do particular stupid things, and others of us are lucky.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #132 September 13, 2002 So, this instructor... who has lots of jumps... just decided to smack the ground chest-first because {___________________}. A) he was an ass B) he had nothing better to do C) no apparent reason D) he decided to see what it would be like to act like an irrational student E) he smoked a bowl F) his canopy was collapsed by space aliens reply] Why does any experienced jumper smack the ground? Are they all stoned? I was taught way back in high school that THC can be found in your systems for approx 30 days. So you don't have to smoke pot to know that. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #133 September 13, 2002 QuoteI think that the other poster's point is that we have a couple of pieces of the puzzle. He had marijuana in his system, and he died. Then the Tribune... Quote A skydiving instructor who died in July while attempting to land on a pond at Skydive Chicago in Ottawa was seriously impaired by smoking marijuana within two hours of his death, according to a toxicology report released Wednesday. People die from skydiving all the time. But: how many people die from skydiving when they have smoked pot, not the night before... but the day of their jump? And how many of these people are AFF instructors, who KNOW better. The poster's argument is completely baseless and doesn't provide any factual information to conclude that this incident was not primarily driven by anything other than marijuana. Would this have been any different if the AFF/I had 24 beers right before his jump? Would you be dismissive of a high alchohol blood content, no matter what it concluded? What will it take to convince you people that this is wrong? A copy of the toxicology report to be sent to every man woman and child with a polaroid of his carcass on the ground? Jesus. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #134 September 13, 2002 I don't think Christoofar was saying the guy "deserved what he got" at all. I think he was pointing out that marijuana was a pretty compelling factor in the incident. I think he was being sarcastic in response to an earlier post. We can't very well ask the deceased what happened, so it is all about guessing at this point, using the available clues. I'd say the toxicology report is pretty damning. Still, I feel sorry for him, his friends, and his family. Even if it was due to poor judgement, it is still tragic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #135 September 13, 2002 QuoteI'd say the toxicology report is pretty damning. reply] I'd like to bring this back to the front for a moment. In the case of the tandem instructor going in with a student, I understand why there is a blood tox. I don't understand why there was one in this case. Is it standard procedure, or does someone have to make the decision to do it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 4 #136 September 13, 2002 ya'll do me a favor - if (god forbid) something ever happens to me, and they find some substances in my system (not that they would) please don't hold me up as a poster child for DARE or mail a picture of my carcass to every man, woman, and child, or pour over toxicology reports, etc etc.... just call me a dumb ass for doing something I shouldn't, then skydiving because I thought I could handle it. Just like people who think they can hook, or think they can fly a canopy loaded at 3:1; or think they can do micro-CRW, or think they don't need a gear check... and happen to be wrong and pay a dear price for. Maybe you can go ahead and call me selfish and irresposible because I left a wife/girlfriend/family/children behind because of a poor judgement decision. But other than that, leave it alone. Quit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #137 September 13, 2002 QuoteThen the Tribune... Ah, so you believe everything you read in the newspaper... QuoteThe poster's argument is completely baseless and doesn't provide any factual information to conclude that this incident was not primarily driven by anything other than marijuana. You haven't provided any factual information to conclude that this incident was "primarily driven" by marijuana. All you've done is quote a newspaper reporter, who gives no "factual information" (i.e. quotes from the toxicology report) to back up his claim that the jumper was "seriously impaired." QuoteJesus. If others opinions about this bother you that much, may I suggest moving on to another thread? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WFFC 1 #138 September 13, 2002 QuoteIt scares me that some people are gung-ho about censorship and invasion of privacy. There's a fine line here. No, I don't care for censorship or invasion of privacy. What I do care about is #1. Me. If I'm entrusting my happy a$$ to someone whether it be a TM, AFF JM, airline pilot, cruise ship crew, whatever, I want these people to be clean an on the straights. By taking these positions, people have entrusted in you their very lives and wellbeing. If you neglect this responsibility by taking a couple hits before going to work, you've impaired your ability. If you screw up and I get hurt, don't worry about my attorney. I will find you myself. Taking a job as a computer developer, as long as the job can be done, imho, does not require a drug test. Side note: Quark (Desktop publishing software company) was at one point going to initiate random drug testing until they found out how many of their developers actually smoked a little hit every now and then. They have since abandoned this policy. This opinion is mine and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone at the WFFC. Michael----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #139 September 13, 2002 QuoteQuit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. If so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #140 September 13, 2002 QuoteIn the case of the tandem instructor going in with a student, I understand why there is a blood tox. I don't understand why there was one in this case. Is it standard procedure, or does someone have to make the decision to do it? I don't know, Johnny. Since I don't work for the police, or the medical examiner, all I could do is speculate. Maybe because of past history of the DZ, or maybe it is just at the examiner's discretion. You raised a good question though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnnyD 0 #141 September 13, 2002 QuoteI don't know, Johnny. Since I don't work for the police, or the medical examiner, all I could do is speculate. Maybe because of past history of the DZ, or maybe it is just at the examiner's discretion. You raised a good question though. I think so. I have never heard of a blood tox report in cases that did not involve students or other jumpers, except at SDC. {Insert conspiracy theory here} Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,178 #142 September 13, 2002 Statement: QuoteQuit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. Answer:If so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. ---------------- Actually, he's absolutely right. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, and all that. You can give someone all the benefit of your considerable experience, but you can't make him USE it. Ask any parent of teenagers. You have to let people make their own mistakes and pay for them. By giving them information, you hope to give them more ammo with which to make good decisions. By having a student progression (or on-campus living, or the Army, or learner's permits), you try to limit their opportunities to make really serious errors, so they can learn from small ones. If there are errors that are likely to have devastating consequences, then you try to make them harder to make than good decisions. But there are Darwin awards every year.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wildblue 4 #143 September 13, 2002 QuoteIf so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. That's something totally different. You can teach people the skills they need, you can teach them the rules, and you can tell them what is and isn't a good idea to do/try. You can't teach someone good judgement. Ask some of CNs around here - how many people they've tried to impress upon that it was a bad idea to buy canopy "x" because they weren't ready for it. They do it anyway, and sometimes get hurt. edit: hmm.. seems to be an echo in here it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #144 September 13, 2002 QuoteAh, so you believe everything you read in the newspaper... Do you honestly think I believe everything I read in the newspaper? Of course not. Have I worked on a newspaper, well YES I have! Did the reporter dream up this? Quote A skydiving instructor who died in July while attempting to land on a pond at Skydive Chicago in Ottawa was seriously impaired by smoking marijuana within two hours of his death, according to a toxicology report released Wednesday. The report was made public an at inquest conducted by LaSalle County Coroner Jody Bernard into the death of Ronald Passmore Jr., 33, who died July 14 when he slammed chest first into the pond at the jump zone and died of a severed aorta. A coroner's jury declared the death accidental. Call the LaSalle County Coroner to do the interview yourself if you want, but I think the information the reporter gleaned from the ME is accurate. We don't need to have 80 people bugging them to death (no pun intended). The potheads can argue against science all they want to. I just thank God that Passmore killed himself and didn't take anyone else out with him. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #145 September 13, 2002 QuoteWhat I do care about is #1. Me. If I'm entrusting my happy a$$ to someone whether it be a TM, AFF JM, airline pilot, cruise ship crew, whatever, I want these people to be clean an on the straights. By taking these positions, people have entrusted in you their very lives and wellbeing. If you neglect this responsibility by taking a couple hits before going to work, you've impaired your ability. If you screw up and I get hurt, don't worry about my attorney. I will find you myself. I completely agree. But I don't think random drug testing is a good response to this. If there's reason to believe that someone's performance is lacking due to drug use, that's one thing. But random testing is completely different. I don't care what the job is or who it might effect. Unless you have reason to doubt my veracity, don't force me to give you my body fluids. For whoever it was that asked for non-biased, third party info about marijuana use and drug testing, here's a report on the subject commisioned by Richard Nixon during his presidency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sebazz1 2 #146 September 13, 2002 Just a thought here. Ever notice that these professionals like airline pilots, major netowork admins, oil riggers, etc. that must submit to drug tests get paid big big bucks... Last I heard the best a full time JM was able to eek out was maybe maaayyybeee 25-26 grand a year after taxes. I don't know many proffesionals that get paid that low. Ah hell this has no bearing to the above thread. Sorry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #147 September 13, 2002 QuoteThen the Tribune... Quote A skydiving instructor who died in July while attempting to land on a pond at Skydive Chicago in Ottawa was seriously impaired by smoking marijuana within two hours of his death, according to a toxicology report released Wednesday. People die from skydiving all the time. But: how many people die from skydiving when they have smoked pot, not the night before... but the day of their jump? And how many of these people are AFF instructors, who KNOW better. The poster's argument is completely baseless and doesn't provide any factual information to conclude that this incident was not primarily driven by anything other than marijuana. actually i haven’t seen/heard any factual information (aka evidence) that points to marijuana as the cause of this accident. definitions are very important. why did he die? he hit the water at a high angle of attack/rate of speed. why did he do that? he initiated his turn to low. why did he do that? no one will ever know! I am in no way advocating jumping while impaired. i am simply pointing out that there is no way to determine factuallywhy he turned so low. More importantly IMO is the observation that several people have made that he apparently did not have much experience swooping. Add that to that the difficulties involving depth perception and water and I think you are closer to a real cause. Marijuana is just another contributing factor.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #148 September 13, 2002 Quote Quit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. ------ If so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. So being an S&TA or holding an AFF rating (or any instructional rating for that matter) automatically means the person holding it will never make a mistake and has perfect judgement? Riiiiight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #149 September 13, 2002 QuoteQuit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. You can't make anyone use good judgement. But by discussing the issues and making strong points about the relevent facts, more people will see it than if we gloss over it with a "Too bad." Out of the people that see the discussion, some of them WILL learn from the mistakes of others. You can't teach the judgement, but you can pass along the information so that the receptive may avoid repeating the same mistake. While it may be too late for one person, another person may be saved when they recall us flaming each other over what some of us consider a senseless death, and decide not to jump when they are still drunk/stoned/whatever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #150 September 13, 2002 QuoteI am in no way advocating jumping while impaired. i am simply pointing out that there is no way to determine factuallywhy he turned so low. More importantly IMO is the observation that several people have made that he apparently did not have much experience swooping. Add that to that the difficulties involving depth perception and water and I think you are closer to a real cause. Marijuana is just another contributing factor. I refer to my previous posts: Then why was he an AFF/I? Should have this painfully obvious that this was wrong? This does not compute! ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 6 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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wildblue 4 #136 September 13, 2002 ya'll do me a favor - if (god forbid) something ever happens to me, and they find some substances in my system (not that they would) please don't hold me up as a poster child for DARE or mail a picture of my carcass to every man, woman, and child, or pour over toxicology reports, etc etc.... just call me a dumb ass for doing something I shouldn't, then skydiving because I thought I could handle it. Just like people who think they can hook, or think they can fly a canopy loaded at 3:1; or think they can do micro-CRW, or think they don't need a gear check... and happen to be wrong and pay a dear price for. Maybe you can go ahead and call me selfish and irresposible because I left a wife/girlfriend/family/children behind because of a poor judgement decision. But other than that, leave it alone. Quit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #137 September 13, 2002 QuoteThen the Tribune... Ah, so you believe everything you read in the newspaper... QuoteThe poster's argument is completely baseless and doesn't provide any factual information to conclude that this incident was not primarily driven by anything other than marijuana. You haven't provided any factual information to conclude that this incident was "primarily driven" by marijuana. All you've done is quote a newspaper reporter, who gives no "factual information" (i.e. quotes from the toxicology report) to back up his claim that the jumper was "seriously impaired." QuoteJesus. If others opinions about this bother you that much, may I suggest moving on to another thread? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #138 September 13, 2002 QuoteIt scares me that some people are gung-ho about censorship and invasion of privacy. There's a fine line here. No, I don't care for censorship or invasion of privacy. What I do care about is #1. Me. If I'm entrusting my happy a$$ to someone whether it be a TM, AFF JM, airline pilot, cruise ship crew, whatever, I want these people to be clean an on the straights. By taking these positions, people have entrusted in you their very lives and wellbeing. If you neglect this responsibility by taking a couple hits before going to work, you've impaired your ability. If you screw up and I get hurt, don't worry about my attorney. I will find you myself. Taking a job as a computer developer, as long as the job can be done, imho, does not require a drug test. Side note: Quark (Desktop publishing software company) was at one point going to initiate random drug testing until they found out how many of their developers actually smoked a little hit every now and then. They have since abandoned this policy. This opinion is mine and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone at the WFFC. Michael----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #139 September 13, 2002 QuoteQuit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. If so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #140 September 13, 2002 QuoteIn the case of the tandem instructor going in with a student, I understand why there is a blood tox. I don't understand why there was one in this case. Is it standard procedure, or does someone have to make the decision to do it? I don't know, Johnny. Since I don't work for the police, or the medical examiner, all I could do is speculate. Maybe because of past history of the DZ, or maybe it is just at the examiner's discretion. You raised a good question though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #141 September 13, 2002 QuoteI don't know, Johnny. Since I don't work for the police, or the medical examiner, all I could do is speculate. Maybe because of past history of the DZ, or maybe it is just at the examiner's discretion. You raised a good question though. I think so. I have never heard of a blood tox report in cases that did not involve students or other jumpers, except at SDC. {Insert conspiracy theory here} Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,178 #142 September 13, 2002 Statement: QuoteQuit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. Answer:If so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. ---------------- Actually, he's absolutely right. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, and all that. You can give someone all the benefit of your considerable experience, but you can't make him USE it. Ask any parent of teenagers. You have to let people make their own mistakes and pay for them. By giving them information, you hope to give them more ammo with which to make good decisions. By having a student progression (or on-campus living, or the Army, or learner's permits), you try to limit their opportunities to make really serious errors, so they can learn from small ones. If there are errors that are likely to have devastating consequences, then you try to make them harder to make than good decisions. But there are Darwin awards every year.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #143 September 13, 2002 QuoteIf so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. That's something totally different. You can teach people the skills they need, you can teach them the rules, and you can tell them what is and isn't a good idea to do/try. You can't teach someone good judgement. Ask some of CNs around here - how many people they've tried to impress upon that it was a bad idea to buy canopy "x" because they weren't ready for it. They do it anyway, and sometimes get hurt. edit: hmm.. seems to be an echo in here it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #144 September 13, 2002 QuoteAh, so you believe everything you read in the newspaper... Do you honestly think I believe everything I read in the newspaper? Of course not. Have I worked on a newspaper, well YES I have! Did the reporter dream up this? Quote A skydiving instructor who died in July while attempting to land on a pond at Skydive Chicago in Ottawa was seriously impaired by smoking marijuana within two hours of his death, according to a toxicology report released Wednesday. The report was made public an at inquest conducted by LaSalle County Coroner Jody Bernard into the death of Ronald Passmore Jr., 33, who died July 14 when he slammed chest first into the pond at the jump zone and died of a severed aorta. A coroner's jury declared the death accidental. Call the LaSalle County Coroner to do the interview yourself if you want, but I think the information the reporter gleaned from the ME is accurate. We don't need to have 80 people bugging them to death (no pun intended). The potheads can argue against science all they want to. I just thank God that Passmore killed himself and didn't take anyone else out with him. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #145 September 13, 2002 QuoteWhat I do care about is #1. Me. If I'm entrusting my happy a$$ to someone whether it be a TM, AFF JM, airline pilot, cruise ship crew, whatever, I want these people to be clean an on the straights. By taking these positions, people have entrusted in you their very lives and wellbeing. If you neglect this responsibility by taking a couple hits before going to work, you've impaired your ability. If you screw up and I get hurt, don't worry about my attorney. I will find you myself. I completely agree. But I don't think random drug testing is a good response to this. If there's reason to believe that someone's performance is lacking due to drug use, that's one thing. But random testing is completely different. I don't care what the job is or who it might effect. Unless you have reason to doubt my veracity, don't force me to give you my body fluids. For whoever it was that asked for non-biased, third party info about marijuana use and drug testing, here's a report on the subject commisioned by Richard Nixon during his presidency. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #146 September 13, 2002 Just a thought here. Ever notice that these professionals like airline pilots, major netowork admins, oil riggers, etc. that must submit to drug tests get paid big big bucks... Last I heard the best a full time JM was able to eek out was maybe maaayyybeee 25-26 grand a year after taxes. I don't know many proffesionals that get paid that low. Ah hell this has no bearing to the above thread. Sorry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #147 September 13, 2002 QuoteThen the Tribune... Quote A skydiving instructor who died in July while attempting to land on a pond at Skydive Chicago in Ottawa was seriously impaired by smoking marijuana within two hours of his death, according to a toxicology report released Wednesday. People die from skydiving all the time. But: how many people die from skydiving when they have smoked pot, not the night before... but the day of their jump? And how many of these people are AFF instructors, who KNOW better. The poster's argument is completely baseless and doesn't provide any factual information to conclude that this incident was not primarily driven by anything other than marijuana. actually i haven’t seen/heard any factual information (aka evidence) that points to marijuana as the cause of this accident. definitions are very important. why did he die? he hit the water at a high angle of attack/rate of speed. why did he do that? he initiated his turn to low. why did he do that? no one will ever know! I am in no way advocating jumping while impaired. i am simply pointing out that there is no way to determine factuallywhy he turned so low. More importantly IMO is the observation that several people have made that he apparently did not have much experience swooping. Add that to that the difficulties involving depth perception and water and I think you are closer to a real cause. Marijuana is just another contributing factor.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #148 September 13, 2002 Quote Quit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. ------ If so, I hope you never teach anyone how to skydive. What a wonderful S&TA you would make. So being an S&TA or holding an AFF rating (or any instructional rating for that matter) automatically means the person holding it will never make a mistake and has perfect judgement? Riiiiight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #149 September 13, 2002 QuoteQuit trying to "learn something from it" - you can't "learn" good judgement. You can't make anyone use good judgement. But by discussing the issues and making strong points about the relevent facts, more people will see it than if we gloss over it with a "Too bad." Out of the people that see the discussion, some of them WILL learn from the mistakes of others. You can't teach the judgement, but you can pass along the information so that the receptive may avoid repeating the same mistake. While it may be too late for one person, another person may be saved when they recall us flaming each other over what some of us consider a senseless death, and decide not to jump when they are still drunk/stoned/whatever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #150 September 13, 2002 QuoteI am in no way advocating jumping while impaired. i am simply pointing out that there is no way to determine factuallywhy he turned so low. More importantly IMO is the observation that several people have made that he apparently did not have much experience swooping. Add that to that the difficulties involving depth perception and water and I think you are closer to a real cause. Marijuana is just another contributing factor. I refer to my previous posts: Then why was he an AFF/I? Should have this painfully obvious that this was wrong? This does not compute! ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
