Q for King Air pilots

[jjiimmyyt 0]

How much of an issue is CofG? Could say 6 or 7 jumpers in the rear cause a stall?

Edit to add: On run in. With 3 jumpers on the outside.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

[diverdriver 5]

I've seen the video of the King Air stall in the UK. I believe that having jumpers in the tail of the aircraft while other jumpers moved out to floating positions very strongly contributed to that stall. What the actual speed of the jump run was I don't know. What did the pilot say he was flying at and what had he been told to fly at? What power settings was he told to fly at and what did he actually fly at?

But most certainly the one jumper in the tail who grabbed another jumper when he felt the stall coming on actually exacerbated the situation by pulling the jumper TO THE REAR OF THE AIRCRAFT. Not good. He certainly knew something was coming on and was trying to signal to the jumpers on the outside to go and go quickly. However, it seems they were waiting for their group member to join them in the door. Jumpers should be reminded not to get tunnel vision. That's easier said then done though. You're not expecting someone not in your group to start wildly waiving their arm. A more obvious and situation altering action like leaving the plane himself instead of grabbing the other jumper would have caused the group to possibly go earlier and keep the situation from getting out of hand.

If you are climbing on the outside of the plane and you suddenly feel some buffeting or you feel light on your feet this may be your only warning of the onset of a stall. It may require you to immediately leave the aircraft. If you are going to have rear floaters you MUST first get people out of the rear cabin area aft of the door so that the total CG shift is first FORWARD then AFT. This climb out the CG just kept getting more and more aft with dead weight (two jumpers in the far tail) still inside.

That's my opinion.

I also read on the UK boards that the video shows that the plane never leveled off and was still nose up. How do they suppose that? I couldn't say that from the one POV video uploaded to the skydiving video website. Just because you can see the top of the horizontal stabilizer doesn't mean he's still in a climb attitude. It means the jumper wearing the camera is tall enough to see over the horizontal stab. That's all. There are clouds in the background and no horizon is really discernable until fully into the stall and the jumpers fall off the aircraft.

I am really interested in hearing what the pilot was trained to do and what he says he actually flew during that run. Maybe the training needs to be looked at. Maybe the pilot did mess up. But I believe there's a bit of blame to go around.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jjiimmyyt 0]

Chris

thanks for the response. i was hoping that some one such as your self would reply. I have to say right off the bat that this pilot and I dont have the best relationship, but I am not out to crucify him as others have suggested elsewhere. I just want to know, if we, as jumpers, should be paying more attention to the CofG in KAs.

The KA seems like an awesome jump ship, and Dunkeswell seems to a great DZ, but the pilot in question looks like he has decided not to respond, even though he was very active in promoting the DZ and plane beforehand. I dont know, he maybe too busy on other projects. That is fair enough. However he is a BPA pilot examiner and as such we kind of expect very high standards and from what has been suggested on UKS he may not have held himself to the same standards.

I do feel like a real cunt for bringing this up as I still have warmth for the pilot but if we dont know what went on how can we ensure this doesn't happen again. I've lost 2 friends to this sport already, I dont need any more gone.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

[BillyVance 34]

I have chucked a 7 way out of a King Air before. We had 5 floaters and one in the door and me right inside the door, with a grip on the chest strap of the guy giving the count. Granted, it was Mullins' King Air with the supercharged 750 HP engines.

I don't know if this would be a problem on King Airs with the standard engines.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[AFFI 0]

I was rear float on a KA that stalled about 7 years back, it happened very quickly – one moment I was rear float, the next I was going over the top of the rear horizontal stabilizer looking down as the plane fell, people scrambling to get out. We were doing a formation with the whole load, the exit obviously poorly planned, we still regrouped for a point or two and the pilot had plenty of altitude to get everything under control.

Still have all the white paint marks on my Z1, good thing I was wearing a helmet on that one.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[pilotdave 0]

Video

Dave

[Zing 2]

"I just want to know, if we, as jumpers, should be paying more attention to the CofG in KAs."


The short answer to this question is a RESOUNDING YES!
DiverDriver pretty much covered it, still, what too many skydivers, and some pilots too, fail to be convinced off is that the laws of physics, fluid dynamics and all that other technical random-babble theory of flight stuff will not be suspended at their convenience.
King Airs are fun to fly, relatively cheap and plentiful, yet possibly one of the poorest choices as a jump plane around with that low slung horizontal stabilizer and the aircraft's sensitivity to aft CG loads.
I've never stalled a King Air with jumpers outside, but I've flown plenty of them and I've been real close once or twice.
Had a dickhead take a swing at me next to the swimming pool at Perris following a load when he and another big boy tandem master decided to sit behind the door and watch an 8-way exit. We did a bit of porpoising, but never fell off on a wing. Scared me, he took offence, got grounded for a short while, and the staff at Perris finally started listening to the pilots about CG issues in the King Air.
I'm convinced that skydivers can cause a King Air to stall despite a pilot who is doing everything right at the time, but most of the tales I've heard, and a few of my best skydiving flying lies are a combination of pilot and skydiver fault ... that chain of events thing that keeps adding up till it breaks.
Yeah, more jumpers need to more aware of of CG issues during flights hauling jumpers ... but that goes without saying for all jump planes.
Personally, I was always a lot more afraid of tail-srtike potential than I ever was of stalling flying King Airs. That tail fails too easily when something heavy hits or snags it. Stall spin recoveries from 15000 are much less intimidating in my flying nightmares. If it stalls, the odds are highly in your favor that a sizeable chunk of that aft load is going away when the airplane rolls over.

PilotDave's video link came up while I was writing my little rant ... note the proximity of the one floater and the vidiot as they leave the airplane ... also note the crowd in the aft cabin behind the door, and the length of time the jumpers are in those positions prior to the actual stall ... SPORT DEATH!

And, that was, relatively speaking, a fairly calm stall, though I'm sure it didn't seem that way to the jumpers or the pilot at the time. Stalls can be much more of violent affair than that one was.

Zing Lurks

[DSE 3]

I've been in a King that has stalled with 4 outside and 2 waiting to dive, with the others moving towards the tail. I was rear float and found my fingers in the door with my feet towards the tail.
Not a pleasant experience. The pilot is exceptionally capable with the aircraft, conditions and weight were more than he could overcome at that moment. We no longer can have 4 out and 2 in the door unless everyone else stays forward til the exit.

that said, tail strikes are my biggest fear as well.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I have noticed that the people in the front of the aircraft seam to think that they need to start moving toward the tail as soon as the room appears. Unless it is a fourteen way the people at the front should stay put until the first group leaves. To my way of thinking only the first group and the first person climbing out on the second group need to move during run in.

[ryoder 1,384]

I once left a KA in the middle of a Vmc roll. It was a really exciting jump, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[tdog 0]

I was not there, but more than one person told me what it is like when it stalls and rolls. If everything goes wrong, you fall off your floating exit grip at the wrong time and see yourself in freefall with the prop in front of you. The skydiver recounted kicking off the wing to push himself away from the spinning prop. According to the skydiver an a witness, without the kick, he would have hit the prop.

Zing's story about a TM behind the door... At my home DZ, our house rules with the KA is no one behind the door on jumprun and those inside have to line up towards the front of the plane, not huddled around the door.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I have noticed that the people in the front of the aircraft seam to think that they need to start moving toward the tail as soon as the room appears. Unless it is a fourteen way the people at the front should stay put until the first group leaves. To my way of thinking only the first group and the first person climbing out on the second group need to move during run in.

I try to keep everyone forward while the first group exits. You always need sometime between groups, right? So keep your ass on the bench up front and help the poor pilot out. Then trot down the aisle as you count off your seconds of separation.

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed.
At Pitt Meadows, the last to exit are usually tandems. They keep their packs pressed firmly against the instrument panel - or the pilot's seat until the big-way has gone.

[riggerrob 558]

Agreed.

At Pitt Meadows, our King Air B90 is limited to 3 floaters.
Only the rear-most floater is allowed aft of the door, and only during climb-out.
Similarly, no one is allowed to sit aft of the door, during climb.
To chain this idea even farther back, the pilot complains loudly if anyone sits aft of the door while we are on the ground. Something about him having to pay a $40,000 repair bill if the King Air tilts back on its tail skid.
I have suggested that he station a large, mean dog aft of the door - to discourage lazy skydivers from sitting there - but he does not like dogs.
Hee!
Hee!

[druvaughn 0]

How much of an issue is CG???

I would say its a large issue that often goes unchecked...

I am seeing more and more people in lightly loaded Otters racing to sit on the floor. This is fine until 1 of the engines goes down, then W&B becomes a big issue.

I agree with another poster that more and more people are racing towards the door, even if the first group out is still hanging on.

W&B brings down planes and should be given more attention in our sport.

Best,
Dru

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"Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical."

[diablopilot 2]

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The KA seems like an awesome jump ship

King Airs really need to go the way of the Dodo.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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The KA seems like an awesome jump ship

King Airs really need to go the way of the Dodo.

King Air 90s are less than half the price of any other turbine jumpship on the market. They are a great jumpship in their niche as long as the jumpers understand their limitations and the videots stay the fuck out of the tail.

[BillyVance 34]

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The KA seems like an awesome jump ship

King Airs really need to go the way of the Dodo.

If you're only interested in fast rides to altitudes and smallish group jumps or solos, they more than fit the bill, but that's it.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[diablopilot 2]

THey are maintinence pigs, fuel hogs, and have more crashes and deaths in skydiving than any other turbine.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[BillyVance 34]

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THey are maintinence pigs, fuel hogs, and have more crashes and deaths in skydiving than any other turbine.

Where can I see the numbers for each type of aircraft for those statistics?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[jlmiracle 7]

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THey are maintinence pigs, fuel hogs, and have more crashes and deaths in skydiving than any other turbine.

Where can I see the numbers for each type of aircraft for those statistics?

Yeah, seems really odd. Back before 9/11 I was paying $10.00 to 14,500ft from a kingair and $18-19 from 13,000 from an otter. I guess the kingair dzo are all independently wealthy.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[DSE 3]

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THey are maintinence pigs, fuel hogs, and have more crashes and deaths in skydiving than any other turbine.

got stats to back that statement up?
I suppose it's *possible* given that there are more KA in the air than any other small turbine aircraft (they're still in production after 40 years). But I'd find it hard to accept that it's "had more crashes/deaths in skydiving" than any other. There are so few DZ's with them by comparison to other a/c.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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THey are maintinence pigs, fuel hogs, and have more crashes and deaths in skydiving than any other turbine.

I agree with the maintenance pigs and fuel hogs part, but when you are a marginal turbine DZ for climate or size reasons those costs are dwarfed by the capital carrying costs.
As for the more crashes and deaths part, I would like to see some stats if you have them. I can only recall the Utah crash off the top of my head, while I can think of three Porter crashes and two Twotter crashes without straining.

[diverdriver 5]

I don't have time to look it up right now but someone could look through my list of jump plane accidents at http://www.diverdriver.com/Accidents/accidents.htm. I recently updated it for number of accidents per year and number of fatalities per year too.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[PhreeZone 15]

History shows that the C-182 is the most dangerous plane in the fleet. Since 1982 there have been 136 incidents and 51 fatalities over 17 accidents with the 182. Otters have killed 29 people, The old Beech 18/45 killed 26 jumpers, King Airs have killed 25 during the same time.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com