Petition for seperate landing area's

[rondoman 7]

Absolutely agree, Bill. The BSR's are the right place to address this issue, and designating separate landing areas is the best way to minimize the opportunity for collisions.

Ron

Rondo

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

I am FOR separate landing areas..I've seen it at Eloy and at Lake Wales and it seems to work.

_________________________________________

[livendive 8]

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We should change that to a BSR that states "high performance landings should never be attempted in a landing area where people are flying standard patterns, and must have a separate landing area" or something along those lines.

Care to try and massage that into something as specific as the other BSRs?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,400]

>we are uspa is what I keep hearing... paperwork isnt free

No new paperwork. Just a new BSR. Wouldn't even change the length of the current SIM, since the long explanation of why you shouldn't swoop in the regular landing area is already there. (No one reads it, of course.)

>I agree with you completely, but its the DZ's that will have to make
>and enforce the rules, and they will vary from dz to dz . . .

Minimum pull altitudes aren't 1000 feet at some USPA DZ's.

They don't let people with 20 jumps teach AFF at some USPA DZ's.

USPA is the organization that sets nationwide safety rules so that there is some uniformity from DZ to DZ when it comes to training. Most USPA DZ's do a pretty good job of following the rules if they're easy to follow (like pull altitudes.) What we need now is one simple to follow rule to keep safe jumpers from being killed by swoopers - "no swooping in the main landing area" is one such simple rule.

As always, it will be up to the DZ to enforce it, and they may well choose not to. But a lot of DZ's DO want to prevent these incidents, and having a simple, straightforward BSR from USPA will help them do that.

>pure and simple.... he didnt locate the other person - he did not look...

I am sure he DID look, and just missed him, or thought he'd be fine. There was a recent thread here where a swooper said "I always clear my airspace first, and make sure I am not a hazard to anyone else." I'm certain Danny would have said exactly the same thing before he killed Bob.

We have had several instances where competent, careful swoopers killed themselves or others by not being able to clear their airspace before they swoop. At some point, the argument that "they're all idiots who can't clear their airspace" doesn't fly any more, and we have to start recognizing that some landing manuevers simply are not compatible with others (IMO.)

[billvon 2,400]

>Care to try and massage that into something as specific as the other BSRs?

"Any skydiver who turns more than 90 degrees to set up for a high performance landing must do so away from the primary DZ landing area, and land in an alternate area designated for swooping."

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Would you be willing to sign a petition asking for the USPA to mandate separate landing area’s for high performance landings at USPA drop zones.

B.o.B.

I vote no.

USPA cannot dictate what individual DZs do. USPA can only suggest solutions.

One of those suggested solutions is to separate swoops from the main landing area in time or space.

Some DZs are small geographic-wise and cannot have two physical areas for conventional and swoop patterns. What they can do is separate the two types of landing in time.

At the local level, what can be done is for organizers, S&TAs, canopy coaches and your everyday jumper demand that the group follow a specific and detailed plan that caters to the local DZ geography and weather conditions.

IOW, a big-way organizer says 'conventional pattern only'
or
a canopy coach says 'stack your approaches' (and the HP landings are separated in time or space from the conventional pattern)

These are proven methods.

Some DZS are large enough to have physically separate landing areas. The guidelines must be told to the jumpers and enforced.

Elsinore is a stellar example of this.
There was a canopy collision there around the turn of the century that sent one jumper to the hospital.
{Side Note: There were also a flurry of canopy collisions across the nation at the same time. This was very similar to what we have seen in the past few months.}
After that accident, Elsinore separated the swoopers from the main landing area.
You cannot do HP approaches in the main landing area. If you want to do HP approaches, you do them at the swoop pond.

The solution is very simple.
In the main landing area you can only do conventional approaches (90 degree turns)
Another area is set up for the HP and greater than 90 approaches.

Education (about canopy control) is not the end-all solution. Danny Page knew how to control his canopy. Yet he made a very poor judgement decision as to whether it was safe or not to swoop. The only way to stop the likes of him are for the DZ to mandate separate landing areas or the organizer to mandate a conventionl pattern only. Canopy collisions are a global problem, but they need a local solution.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Thijs 0]

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Do you also have a petition for common sense and wise decisions?

I kinda like Tom Aiello's quote about BASE:

"In all honesty, I think an IQ test would be a better prerequisite for jumping than a test of physical strength."

[mirage62 0]

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Some DZs are small geographic-wise and cannot have two physical areas for conventional and swoop patterns. What they can do is separate the two types of landing in time.

You know I'm sure that at some place somewhere this is true - but damn if I can figure how you can land a plane and NOT have enough area for two landing zones.

What I would buy is that IT MAY BE to much of an inconvenience distance wise and hence better to us a seperate pass strategy.

Of course I'm not as well traveled as many can someone name a dz that you couldn't have two landing area's?

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[profallrate 0]

I am all for seperate landing areas. But this is not the only thing we can do, and it is not a cure -all. There is not a one size fits all policy for making seperate areas. Every DZ has its own little quirks.
What we also do not need to let happen, that we are still just talking about doing something a month from now, when another happens, and two months from now, another. If you did not know Bob or Danny, or any of the other recent ones involved in these collisions, keep quiet, and it will hit close to home soon enough. I am guilty my self. I heard about the ones elsewhere lately, and although I talked seriously to a few close friends about it, I did not stand on the picnic table and shout about it. We all need to go to our home DZS and be heard this weekend.
There are other things we can do from DZO's, to 10 jump wonders to 10,000 jump world class jumpers.

DZO'S; I commend Art for his decision at his DZ . That is a great start. Dz owners can also ground someone for irrational decisions in the air, they can start seperate landing areas. Separate landing areas will not eleminate all chances of collisions, but will go a long way to avoiding accidents like last weekend. We are all responsible for protecting our own air space, and the looking out for our fellow jumpers. Collisions can occur on regular approaches, if someone does not pay attention or gets out of position. With seperate landing areas and a bad spot, a jumper may drift into the swoop lane, and be in danger, if he is not aware of where he is, or the swooper does not identify that he is there. There can be a warning system, three strikes you are outa here. One hook into a crowd 1 day suspension, 2nd 1 month,etc.

Load organizers; they can announce up front, no high performance landings on my load. You know when they are doing bigger ways, there is a guy jumping up and down waving his arms trying to get "picked" for the load. He really wants to be included, so he may refrain from doing something unsafe to be included. Make it clear they will be thrown off future jumps if they do not comply. Being shunned or ostricized can be enough to prevent some from doing it.

All of us, we need to have a grass roots, from the bottom up approach to this. From 10 jumps to 10000
start again teaching how unsafe this practice is. Swooping, high performance is ok, but it does not mix well with slower more conservative canopies. The younger ones we preach to now, will be the teachers years from now. We need to go out this weekend, and have some serious talks, take the gloves off if needed, hurt feelings are better than broken and dead bodies.
Equipment has come a long way since I started, with skyhook, RSL, Cypres, all around better canopies and gear, but it cannot keep pace with the "its all about me attitudes" . An all out effort to talk about this and re assert our efforts to be safer, will be the best deterent. If we stick to it, we can be safer this weekend and next, but we need to look 5, 10 years down the road.
These are my ideas for the moment, I am sure many of you have more. Lets get it said.
All these things we must do"so that our friends can live."

Keith

-------------------------------------------------
Lord please help me to be the person that my dog thinks I am.

[EricaH 0]

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My DZ doesn't have the real estate for multiple landing areas

Not directed specifically at you, but there are a lot of people saying there's just not enough room. I am very libritarian & definitely want big brother out of my house. However, this is getting crazy. When I'm away from my home dz; I am scared on every single load that some hot shot I don't know or don't recognize his canopy hundreds of feet above me as being a pocket rocket is going to slam into my backside sending me spiraling to the ground. I'm not afraid of dying, I'm afraid of being a parapalegic.

I know this is a risk every time I jump & that it comes from every aspect attacking me from every angle not just swoopers & even from myself. But if there is one way to greatly decrease the chances of that specific incident happening - then why not put it in the BSRs? Make the dzo's consciously decide against following the rules.

As to the small landing area, I jump at Hinckley we have a pretty small area. It's about 2.5 times bigger than a football field and we manage to give the swoopers plenty of room. With a designated marked area they swoop through. Anyone setting up for landing doesn't cross the runway below 1000' and the swoop lane runs along & parallel to the runway, so anyone in a standard pattern doesn't cross that below 1000' either.

Though I do know that since corn is our biggest obstacle we are blessed with plenty of outs. I still stand by the fact that almost every dz that has a landing area big enough for an otter load to land has a big enough area to give the swoopers a designated lane.

I of course am WAY less qualified than pretty much everyone else in this discussion, so I'm out now. I just had to put in my $0.02.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[mirage62 0]

well so far not one example of a dz TO SMALL TO HAVE TO AREA's.

Deland might be one. But you could make the area across from the taxi way it.

That would be a problem unless attitudes change cause thats TO FAR TO WALK

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[mouth 0]

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That would be a problem unless attitudes change cause thats TO FAR TO WALK

I'd fathom to say that both Bob and Danny would agree that walking ain't suck a bad thing.

Anyone who has jumped with me knows I opt for the landing area well away from where everyone else is landing. Katiebear even commented about that here in Dublin. I would rather walk safely than have an ambulance ride from anywhere.

I commend Art at Palatka. I already jump there a good bit and will continue to do even more jumps there simply because he and his staff (I firmly believe Jeff will gladly chew anyone's ass that needs it) are at least attempting to do SOMETHING to keep our sport as safe as possible.

Sometimes I think we all sit back and take the approach of I'll do nothing and it will blow over or even worse are so afraid the resident skygod might get their feelings hurt (like they are going to die from that) that DZOs do nothing. I honestly don't think Bob or Danny would want their deaths to be ingored this way.

If we learn nothing we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. I've seen a hook turn kill one and seriously injur another at SD ATL and now this at Dublin. What are we waiting on...more fatalities?

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[billvon 2,400]

>What are we waiting on...more fatalities?

It looks like that might be the case.

There have been calls for "let each DZ figure it out for themselves!" Going on our experiences here, it takes between 2 and 4 fatalities for dropzones to "figure it out." That's about 75 deaths for the west coast alone before we'd get action taken under the "each DZ decides" plan. To me, that's too many - but that's also what many skydivers seem to accept. After all, it won't happen to them.

[mouth 0]

And if you believe that then maybe we should have IQ tests before allowing people to jump.

I'm tired of going to funerals and memorials.

People, do you really think Bob went on that jump with the intention of dying? Do you really think Danny did that turn with the intention of not only killing himself but a fellow jumper as well?

Wise up...it can happen to you even if you are the safest jumper who ever fell from the sky...it can happen to you.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[livendive 8]

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>Care to try and massage that into something as specific as the other BSRs?

"Any skydiver who turns more than 90 degrees to set up for a high performance landing must do so away from the primary DZ landing area, and land in an alternate area designated for swooping."

That might be close enough. If you imagine the DZ's with sufficient undivided real estate, e.g. Prairie, I suppose you could establish a DZ rule that defines the different areas, e.g. north of the school for swooping and south of the loading area for regular patterns...or something along those lines. They're kinda one big landing area in appearance, but at least it would get to the intent of the BSR.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[quade 3]

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What are we waiting on...more fatalities?

Roger.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mouth 0]

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What are we waiting on...more fatalities?

Roger.

Hearing this from both you and Bill, both of whom I highly respect, this is a very sad day for the skydiving community when human life means nothing more than a passing thought.

How did we become so callous?

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[quade 3]

I can't speak for Bill, but there was more than one meaning in my answer. Think back a year or two and recall the hew and cry over several incidents.

Skydivers as individuals can be very calculating and precise in what they do.
Skydivers as a group, not so much.

Skydivers as individuals can be very self aware and careful.
Skydivers as a group . . . amazingly hypocritical in their behaviour.

Unless DZOs and the USPA steps in and declairs that NO landing shall be made in the main landing area with a turn to final of greater than 90 degress AND ENFORCES IT BY GROUNDING A FEW ASSES, this will continue . . . year after year . . . death after death.

The concept of "voting with their feet" doesn't work. True, -some- individuals may look at a DZ's traffic pattern and decide it's not for them and go elseware, but as a whole, skydivers will continue to jump where they currently jump and do what they currently do. It really doesn't matter how many of their friends go in. Seriously.

Further, very few individuals are ever going to travel thousands of miles to attend "Uber Summer Boogie", look up into the sky and say, "Wow, those guys are fuckin' nuts. I'm sitting down." It's just NOT going to happen.

Understand, this isn't me being callous, simply realistic about some of the amazingly self centered and hypocritical individuals that make up our sport.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Schoenauer 0]

No I would not sign.

Designated landing areas is great in a perfect world where all DZ had enough property to establish designated landing areas but this is not the case. Requiring or mandating a designated landing area for all USPA group members, regardless of size, would restrict the freedoms DZ has in deciding how best to operate their business. If you feel the DZ your jumping as is not safe because their policies, or rules, or lack of them, and that does not conform to your ideals, then jump some place else.

Memento Mori

[D22369 0]

No new paperwork. Just a new BSR. Wouldn't even change the length of the current SIM, since the long explanation of why you shouldn't swoop in the regular landing area is already there. (No one reads it, of course.)

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I agree nobody reads the sim, so why have a new paragraph added when it wont make a bit of difference?


I am sure he DID look, and just missed him,

EXACTLY !!! if you dont positively locate the other jumpers then you are relying on the big sky theory which doesnt always work, merely saying "didnt see nobody, must be clear" does NOT work.

Once again you and I are arguing even though we are saying the same basic thing.... HP landings are not a right each and every time, pilots must know when to back off and land safe - if a dz has the space to have multiple landing areas great, but some dont, if they put swoopers out on a separate pass - good, but its the dz that should make this call..

something must be done, but where we disagree is I see more benefit from the DZ's making the stand rather than uspa making a new bsr that will be unread by the masses..


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[popsjumper 2]

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...I commend Art at Palatka. I already jump there a good bit and will continue to do even more jumps there simply because he and his staff (I firmly believe Jeff will gladly chew anyone's ass that needs it) are at least attempting to do SOMETHING to keep our sport as safe as possible.

Abso-freakin-lutely.

We here at The Farm are following his lead with strict enforcement of completely separate HP landing areas.
Straight in here, HP over there.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mouth 0]

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Understand, this isn't me being callous, simply realistic about some of the amazingly self centered and hypocritical individuals that make up our sport.

I wasn't mean you per say, but skydivers as a whole. It is hard to believe people who would give you anything they have have no more feeling for human life.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[klingeme 0]

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Hey some of you "No" voters, I respect your votes but how about some (more) comments on what your suggestion would be.

I've read things like after 2 warnings your grounded, and think to myself "Why would they give you 2 chances to kill someone but not 3?"

if it is a rule it needs to be zero tollerence. I think that each individul dropzone sould come up with their own policy. if you run a 182 or 206 dropzone , an put people out thinking about their approaches, I don't think having everyone on a 4 person load hooking is a problem. if you are on a 400 way I think you probably should not touch your front risers at all. I think the problem is situational.

If no one ever jumped from an airplane, there would be a lot less deaths from it too. Should we regulate that?


Mark

[yardhippie 0]

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>What are we waiting on...more fatalities?

It looks like that might be the case.

There have been calls for "let each DZ figure it out for themselves!" Going on our experiences here, it takes between 2 and 4 fatalities for dropzones to "figure it out." That's about 75 deaths for the west coast alone before we'd get action taken under the "each DZ decides" plan. To me, that's too many - but that's also what many skydivers seem to accept. After all, it won't happen to them.

Bill, you and I have agreed on a few thing and some others. But what are YOU and an individual going to do about it? The question is not just posed to you but each and EVERY skydiver out there.

We DO NOT have to wait for a BSR or "DZs to figure it out". All we have to do is walk into our DZ go straing to the DZO and S&TA and whoever else, and say. We're not putting up with this shit anymore. Now lets fix it, Im mean right f*cking now!
Im headed to the DZ as soon as I get off work. The first thing Im going to do is hug everyone there, and the second thing is grabbing the DZO, and S&TA (if hes there yet), and posing that very question, and I will not accept "I dont know" as an answer.

I belive in our community. Is doing something like that so hard? Because even the resistant one out there would fold under pressure, if not to just get us off their backs.
Evaluate your situation, decide on the plan, follow the plan. Live. We cannot contiune to allow ego's, complacentcy, and arrogance to rule. You cant set a rule or BSR for that. It takes US to set those people straight, or send them packing.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[billvon 2,400]

>But what are YOU and an individual going to do about it? The question
>is not just posed to you but each and EVERY skydiver out there.

I wear a lot of hats so I'll try to answer for each one.

As a skydiver? I'm not turning more than 90 in the pattern when there is even one other person in the air, and making it clear to people who do 270's and come near people under canopy that that's not OK.

As a member of an 8-way team? I'm talking to our captain and try to get the 8-way teams to all fly standard patterns. If we can get the 8-way teams to agree, that's at least 30% of the loads on training weekends - and closer to 75% of the traffic on training weekdays.

As a jumper at Perris? I'm going to talk to the DZ about 'rules' for 270's. I doubt that we could say "90's only in the main area" (that would probably take a BSR) but we could do better job of making it clear when it's OK to do 270's and when it isn't.

As a moderator? I'm going to encourage people to talk about this issue here on the forum and with the people at their home DZ's. The more awareness the better.