Looks like we just bombed Yemen

[freeflir29 0]

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We knew where Abu Nidal was

Not only that but there was a CIA field agent that had the means to kill him. He couldn't do it because it was against US law and he could have gone to prison for a long time. He chose to not take that risk and follow orders. I'm not positive I would have.

[happythoughts 0]

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>If we had dealt with this problem in 95 in this manner, we wouldn't
> be dealing with it now and 3000 Americans would be alive.

95 was way too late; Al Quaeda was already coming for us. How about in the 80s when Reagan poured billions in aid and weapons into the Mujahideen, creating both the Taliban and Al Quaeda? Personally, I'd rather there simply not be a terrorist problem to begin with than have to debate options to deal with the terrorist problem. And if we don't create terrorist groups we won't have to deal with them.

It's no different than anything else. You can debate treatment for lung cancer, and indeed there are several good (and some not so good) treatments, depending on when you contract it and what type it is. If your goal is to not get lung cancer, though, don't smoke.

Nope. It is totally different than lung cancer. If you smoke 4 packs a day, you get lung cancer. You cannot predict the political turn of events that will happen in the future by what is occurring today.

In the 80's, Reagan gave money to the Afghans to fight the Russians. Remember the booby-trapped childrens toys that the Russians were dropping?
Ignore that? No. We gave training, money, and guns to the Afghans to get rid of the Russians. Proxy war was crystallized by your buddy JFK when he created the Special Forces to help indigenous peoples free themselves from oppression. They did. The Russians left.

There was no way to determine the political climate in the future after that. I know of no one who can do that. It is too bad that it worked out that way.
If they don't like us and have a poor attitude, they can stay home and write a letter. Bomb us, die soon.

[flyhi 24]

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Richard Gere stood up and said we should treat them like "wayward brothers". He sounded like a retard doing it.

And retards all over the internet take offense at being compared to Richard Gere.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[billvon 2,400]

>Nope. It is totally different than lung cancer. If you smoke 4 packs a
> day, you get lung cancer.

Not at all. Only 30-40% of smokers get lung cancer, and some people who don't smoke at all get lung cancer. True, you are 20 times more likely to get it if you smoke, and 90% of lung cancer cases come from smoking, but it's certainly not 1:1.

Want to prove this? Ask any smoker. They'll either tell you they're planning to quit, or they'll have good reasons (complete with examples) why they shouldn't. "That's all crap! My (father/grandfather/uncle) smoked two packs a day for 40 years and died of a heart attack!"

Reasonable people know that, if there's a very good likelihood that smoking can cause cancer, it's a good idea to avoid it, even if it makes you feel good and look cool in the meantime.

> You cannot predict the political turn of
> events that will happen in the future by what is occurring today.

Well, in that case, why go after the people who bombed the WTC in 95? Would such an action be based on your prediction of what will happen in the future? If so, then you are trying just as hard to predict the future.

Reasonable people know that, if there's a good likelihood that massive funding of terrorists will create a well-funded, well-armed radical terrorist organization, it's a good idea to avoid it, even if they are going to do something you like in the meantime.

> Remember the booby-trapped childrens toys that the Russians were
> dropping? Ignore that?

Yep, same way we ignore the wedding where we killed hundreds of innocent Afghani men, women and children by accident. "Oops, well, that's war. It was a good cause at least."

>Bomb us, die soon.

Didn't work for Israel. Didn't work for the USSR. Won't work for us.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Bush said "We are coming to get you. You are with us or against us."

If we could find them in Yemen, do you think that the Yemeni govt did not know they were there?

Well, they're in the US too. Do you want unmanned planes flying around overhead shooting hell fire missiles at people? I don't. There are also known IRA members in the US, is it ok for the UK to send unmanned planes over to kill them? If Yemen was in on it, fine. But running roughshod over these countries is what fuels the terrorists anger against us in the first place.

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Japan didn't get to complain after Pearl Harbor.
These guys don't either. They get to be the example for this century.

The Japanese gov't declared war on the US, the Yemeni gov't did not.

[Kennedy 0]

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There was no way to determine the political climate in the future after that. I know of no one who can do that. It is too bad that it worked out that way.

Actually, in this case there was a way to figure it would happen. The Afganis of the time referred to us the same way they referred to Russia. We just chose to ignore that little fact.

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If they don't like us and have a poor attitude, they can stay home and write a letter. Bomb us, die soon.

Hey, I'd love it if they took that stance, but the only way that's going to happen is if we do the same thing. Of course, there are a few trillion problems in the way of this happening, but it sounds good to me. All this "world community" tripe really gets me. It's not a new idea, nor a particularly good one. But I digress.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[happythoughts 0]

"Reasonable people know that, if there's a very good likelihood that smoking can cause cancer, it's a good idea to avoid it, ..."

Whatever, I still thinks it is a silly analogy that doesn't relate to politics in any way.

> You cannot predict the political turn of
> events that will happen in the future by what is occurring today.

"Well, in that case, why go after the people who bombed the WTC in 95? "

Because if we had killed them then, they wouldn't be hatching ignorant ideas in 2001. They would probably still be dead. Instead, they would be known as the example of a really bad idea.


"Reasonable people know that...."

Consider myself reasonable, hadn't heard it. Must be that some of the reasonable ones are applying reason to some new facts. Fact 1-Diplomacy didn't work with these yahoos. They bombed us again. Fact 2- People in Al-Queda aren't running around bragging about it right now, are they? No one else is thinking they are real bright. No one else wants to be like them. Bull-eyes are a bitch to wear.

> Remember the booby-trapped childrens toys that the Russians were
> dropping? Ignore that?

"Yep, same way we ignore the wedding where we killed hundreds of innocent Afghani men, women and children by accident. "Oops, well, that's war. It was a good cause at least." "

If you come up with a way to not accidentally kill civilians and friendly-fire casualties, call Washington today. I haven't got a perfect system, but what we have been doing apparently didn't work at all. Sure it sucks to be the 100 people at the wedding.

I'm sure the 3000 at the WTC would like to write them a nice note about how killing innocent civilians is not nice, but I guess they don't get that opportunity.

>Bomb us, die soon.

"Didn't work for Israel. Didn't work for the USSR. Won't work for us."

It worked for the 15 people that they bombed in Yemen. We won't be hearing from them I'm betting.

[freeflir29 0]

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Want to prove this? Ask any smoker. They'll either tell you they're planning to quit, or they'll have good reasons (complete with examples) why they shouldn't. "That's all crap! My (father/grandfather/uncle) smoked two packs a day for 40 years and died of a heart attack!"

Wrong there Bill. I may be an exception but I smoke and I'll tell you I just don't give a fuck. Yeah...it could kill me but so could skydiving, driving, drinking, in fact....each day that I live I put wear and tear on my organs which brings me closer to death. Oh well...... Life is 100% fatal.

[happythoughts 0]

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Japan didn't get to complain after Pearl Harbor.
These guys don't either. They get to be the example for this century.

"The Japanese gov't declared war on the US, the Yemeni gov't did not."

Before or after they bombed Pearl Harbor?

[billvon 2,400]

>Because if we had killed them then, they wouldn't be hatching
> ignorant ideas in 2001. They would probably still be dead.

Uh, no, they're in jail, actually. We caught the four lead men who did that. They may have been hatching ignorant ideas in 2001, but they probably had more to do with stealing cigarettes from their prison mates than global terror.

>Consider myself reasonable, hadn't heard it.

It's unreasonable that if we didn't create Al Quaeda, they wouldn't be around? Do a little research.

>If you come up with a way to not accidentally kill civilians and friendly
>-fire casualties, call Washington today.

Ain't no such thing. Russia ain't got one, we ain't got one. Yet when Russia kills kids, they are evil antichrists, and when we do it, it's just an unfortunate side effect of war.

>I'm sure the 3000 at the WTC would like to write them a nice note
> about how killing innocent civilians is not nice, but I guess they
> don't get that opportunity.

I consider people who use emotional references to the victims of 9/11 to try to win an argument to be pretty slimy.

>It worked for the 15 people that they bombed in Yemen. We won't
> be hearing from them I'm betting.

No, but you may hear from the people who now worship them as martyrs in the war against evil. Unless you honestly think that Yemen will be at peace now, which is a foolish hope.

[billvon 2,400]

>Wrong there Bill. I may be an exception but I smoke and I'll tell you
> I just don't give a fuck. Yeah...it could kill me but so could
> skydiving, driving, drinking, in fact....

It's all in how you die. Choose whatever method you want, but given the choice of dying in a no-pull, slow suffocation over 5 years, or gradual dementia from metastatic brain cancer, I would choose the skydiving death. We all die, but smoking deaths are among the most painful, humiliating and degrading deaths there are.

[freeflir29 0]

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We all die, but smoking deaths are among the most painful, humiliating and degrading deaths there are

True...I'm optomistic about finding something better to die of before that happens.

[happythoughts 0]

"Ain't no such thing. Russia ain't got one, we ain't got one. Yet when Russia kills kids, they are evil antichrists, and when we do it, it's just an unfortunate side effect of war. "

Not comparable. The Russians dropped booby-trapped toys to maim kids. The idea was to drive the people from their own land. The wedding party was an accident. The result may be the same, but the intent was not the same. It is an obvious morality difference. I am sure that you see that.
The Russians are still the Anti-Christ for doing it.
I am appalled that you would compare the two.

"I consider people who use emotional references to the victims of 9/11 to try to win an argument to be pretty slimy. "

Just reminding you who started this party. Them. You tried to create some shocked indignation about
the wedding party fatalities. I just walked into the morality muck to stand next to ya. I would be upset about it too, if they weren't in a war zone of their own making. It is a war zone right? New York wasn't. The two events are not even remotely comparable.

">It worked for the 15 people that they bombed in Yemen. We won't
> be hearing from them I'm betting.

"No, but you may hear from the people who now worship them as martyrs in the war against evil. Unless you honestly think that Yemen will be at peace now, which is a foolish hope. "

The Mid-East in turmoil? Who'd a thunk it. Can you think of a day in the last 50 years that didn't have a pic of some Middle East city with a bunch of peckerwoods running around with signs. Protesting is a sport there. It isn't going to stop, no matter what. Half those people have a political agenda and they need the Great Satan to blame it all on.

We found the first set of martyrs. Just have them put their name at the top of the martyr sign-up sheet. We can stop by later and talk to them too.

[billvon 2,400]

>Not comparable. The Russians dropped booby-trapped toys to maim
> kids.

No, both the Afghans and USSR troops dropped PFM1 anti-personnel mines to keep people out of prohibited areas. Afghanis found them, and apparently at least one thought it looked like a toy. They performed their original functions quite well, which was to kill whatever they came in contact with - which, of course, is exactly what our bombs did in Afghanistan as well. There were no attempts to target children despite a pretty good PR campaign in the US about it. Children died, of course, but as you said, the intent is the big issue.

From the UN website:

"Of particular note is the large number of Soviet made PFM­1 (butterfly) mines dropped by helicopter by Soviet and Afghan government troops. These mines cannot be mapped. They are camouflaged to fit in with the terrain, and when children find them, they often consider them as toys. Such mines have particularly serious consequences for children who tend flocks, as well as for the livestock, often a family's chief store of wealth. "

From this came stories of USSR pilots dropping explosive teddy bears outside kindergartens. Again, some research often pays off when it comes to history (especially during times of intense propaganda.)

>I would be upset about it too, if they weren't in a war zone of their
> own making.

That wedding was as much a war zone of their making as NYC was a war zone of your making. The people in that wedding did not declare war on the US; most people in Afghanistan didn't even know there was a war until the bombs started falling.

Again, this is not to say we shouldn't have attacked Afghanistan. I think we had to do whatever we could to get Al Quaeda out of the picture. But please don't claim we have some sort of moral superiority because we're good and they're bad. The reason we're winning these wars is that we're bigger, not because we have god on our side. I think we _should_ be the good guys, and thus I hope we do things like go through the UN and give even an evil dictator like Saddam his last chance.

>It isn't going to stop, no matter what.

I agree.

>Half those people have a political agenda and they need the Great
> Satan to blame it all on.

And for as long as we kill them and support the people who do, we will be that great satan, and for good reason. When we stop they will find a new great satan, and the next massive terrorist attacks will happen in Israel, or Turkey, or Chechnya. Or, better yet, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. We can't stop the violence; the best we can do is avoid it.

[gemini 0]

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First off, if Yemen did indeed agree with the US's attack, then I have no problem with it.

Then you shouldn't have said anything without finding out the facts!

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I assume we would have no problem with Mexico sending their army into the Arizona desert near the border to capture or destroy a terrorist camp there, assuming we gave our OK.

Has any country ever asked? If I take care of my house, my neighbor has no reason to make a request. Many third world countries are taking the bucks and looking the other way.

Blue skies,

Jim

[PhillyKev 0]

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If I take care of my house, my neighbor has no reason to make a request.

So when are we rounding up all the IRA terrorists in the US?

[gemini 0]

I'm all for it and I am Irish! Why don't you ask some of the politicians on the East Coast?

Better yet, have the British or Irish governments name names and request extradition under criminal charges and let's round them up.

Blue skies,

Jim

[goose491 0]

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But please don't claim we have some sort of moral superiority because we're good and they're bad. The reason we're winning these wars is that we're bigger, not because we have god on our side. I think we _should_ be the good guys, and thus I hope we do things like go through the UN and give even an evil dictator like Saddam his last chance.

You raise an important point here bill. When asked why they beleive there is such hatred for the states in these areas, I am suprized at the number of people (US/CAN)that just say: "Because they're f**king crazy!!" If you don't accept that as answer, you get attitude like your a traitor.

Honnestly now, how many of you think there is absolutely no reason that anybody should want to see the fall of the American Empire? It is true that your average Afgani harbours deep resentment and hatred for the U.S. They truly beleive that you are evil incarnate... The U.S. is the 'big-dog' there's no doubt about that but unless it goes through the UN with everything, it is a 'big-dog' without a leash... Nobody like that.

The booby-trapped toys is an example of how we can take similar actions on both sides and make ours honnorable, theirs disgusting. Don't you think if you lived there, you would not be thinking in reverse? There were no explosive rubix-cubes, or Barbie-doll grenades, there was merely a comment made about how some of the children pick these things up thinking of them as toys (likely because the don't have rubix-cubes or Barbie dolls). We just jumped on that chance to further the mud-slinging.

Anyway, I just thought I'd try to slip into this interesting thread. I do not have the worlds solutions at my figertips but I will say this: I don't trust either Bush as far as I could throw them... I don't think they hold anyones interests in mind but their own... and I thus beleive that ALL military actions proposed by the U.S. should indeed be subject to the approval of the U.N.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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I assume we would have no problem with Mexico sending their army into the Arizona desert near the border to capture or destroy a terrorist camp there, assuming we gave our OK.

Has any country ever asked? If I take care of my house, my neighbor has no reason to make a request. Many third world countries are taking the bucks and looking the other way.

[happythoughts 0]

"...please don't claim we have some sort of moral superiority because we're good and they're bad. The reason we're winning these wars is that we're bigger, not because we have god on our side. I think we _should_ be the good guys, and thus I hope we do things like go through the UN and give even an evil dictator like Saddam his last chance. "

We may not be so morally superior. Don't care. I agree that we are winning through technological superiority. It sucks that they made a bad decision. Everyone wishes they hadn't. Now they need to be an example of bad judgement for others to see. However, they started a war. They get to lose the war now. I think the war should be prosecuted in the harshest fashion because war is a harsh thing. Somalia is an example of doing it improperly.


>Half those people have a political agenda and they need the Great
> Satan to blame it all on.

"And for as long as we kill them and support the people who do, we will be that great satan, and for good reason. When we stop they will find a new great satan, ..."

We avoided it. They attacked us all over the globe and twice in NY.


Bill, let me run this by you:
I think that the Muslim community views us the way that the Bible Belt in the US views Hollywood. They believe that if they don't destroy us, that the US will destroy the moral foundation of their country.

In the long run, westernization may do that. To our eyes, educating women, and other issues, is an improvement. To their eyes, it is cultural genocide. Even though I do not agree with their culture, I can see their viewpoint.

My point is, as long as we exist, they will keep attacking. There is no middle point or co-existence. Our existence threatens theirs. Therefore, since there is no diplomatic answer, they just need to understand that it is a bad idea to attack. Therefore, any attack is subject to massive and unrelenting retaliation. Maybe they won't like us, but they won't attack anymore either.

There may one day be non-petroleum vehicles and we can ignore them because they will no longer have petro-dollars to buy weapons with. They will go back to bumping goats with a stick. That day isn't soon.

[mnischalke 0]

I say we just bomb everybody until they stand up and sing the "Star Spangled Banner!" There are plenty of bombs to go around. Hell, I will even help make more if we start getting low. I do suggest using environmentally friendly bombs though. Maybe one that cleans up after itself. The wreckage of al-Harthi's jeep was ugly and will rust. Maybe better environmental bombs will be able to disintegrate steel and bones completely, and if done right, like good Chinese fireworks, it will happen in stages. Maybe the last stage would be the sprinkling of the seeds of flowering plants and shrubbery.

If you think about it, we could be doing a lot of good here, rather than just acting like judge, jury and executioner, we could just randomly kill people, therefore reducing the bulging population (capacity strain) of the world while growing more beautiful plantlife.

Hmmm, maybe fruitbearing plants too...

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[goose491 0]

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I think that the Muslim community views us the way that the Bible Belt in the US views Hollywood. They believe that if they don't destroy us, that the US will destroy the moral foundation of their country.

Very true, this is the common belief... However...

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To our eyes, educating women, and other issues, is an improvement. To their eyes, it is cultural genocide.

They are not waging war against the most powerful Contry in the World because we treat our women semi-equal... True this eats them up but man, if that were the only thing, then we would have found a way to compromise and co-exist. The simple fact is, there is more that that. You said it yourself:

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Our existence threatens theirs.

Do you think this is because the U.S. cares about their women? Because we try to change this part of their culture on a daily basis? NO! All hatred for the states stems from the extraction of oil and the complete disregard for where it is coming from. We are rich, they are poor, We export our 'natural resorces' for money and we take theirs away for peanuts... That's what this is all about... Now they are highly religious, the U.S. is losing it's faith more and more everyday.

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There may one day be non-petroleum vehicles and we can ignore them because they will no longer have petro-dollars to buy weapons with. They will go back to bumping goats with a stick. That day isn't soon.

Oh, I guarantee there will be non-petroleum vehicles.... But do you think American Government would allow them to hit the market until it stops making such a profit from the sale of petroleum? No, when sources are ultra low and gas is $7.00/litre, then you will see real non-petroleum vehicles and guess what else? You won't be able to afford them in you live in the middle east.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[mnischalke 0]

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We are rich, they are poor, We export our 'natural resorces' for money and we take theirs away for peanuts...

Bwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God, I am tearing up, I am laughing so hard. You paid a comedian for that material, didn't you?

If, for some strange reason, you weren't joking, get a plane ticket to Saudi Arabia and pay a visit. Just look around Riyadh. Ummm, I couldn't afford to drive a Bentley on a sand road, but they do!

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[Deuce 1]

I'm wondering if we're in agreement here. Those Al Quaide knuckleheads needed killing and the US killed them.

I suspect that we use proxy groups, like the Al Quaida when they were fighting with the Soviets, because it's easier than fighting the battles directly.

Don't fund the Kurds, have US forces go in and kill Saddam themselves. If we as a nation want people killed and stuff broken, we should stand up and do it in daylight. Don't fund other groups/governments to do it for us or on our behalf.

US military Blood for oil? Survey says?

Other people's blood for oil? Survey says?

[goose491 0]

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If, for some strange reason, you weren't joking, get a plane ticket to Saudi Arabia and pay a visit. Just look around Riyadh. Ummm, I couldn't afford to drive a Bentley on a sand road, but they do!

Oh, I must have been mis-informed.. Does everybody in Saudi Arabia drive a Bentley?... Oh just the tirants? I see. The roads are sand and not pavement why? Are they not rich like us?

What do the heads of our oil/petrol companies drive? Nothing, they are chauffered around in limos and flown around in their private Jets! I'm sorry, I refuse to beleive that just because all of the money we do give them goes to a small few (thereby making them rich enough to drive Bentleys eheh) that we are justified in our actions.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!