How number of jumps influences the accuracy of landing (for us with <200 jumps)

[sjc 0]

I am curious how the landing accuracy of other new jumpers changes with the number of jumps. I know that for B license we must have 10 landings within 10 meters and by 200 25 jumps within two meters of a target. But it's not like I can hit 10 meter radius on every jump no matter what, even though I passed the requirement for B license.

I've gone into my log book and plotted my accuracy vs number of jumps (for those jumps that I did log my accuracy ). It looks like it improves (slowly but surely). Though I still have jumps when I land as far as 30 meters of the target.

Maybe instructors can say something about that? Or maybe students can post their accuracy for every jump that they have recorded here (or send it to me) and I can post averages later? It took me about 5 minutes to enter my 80 jumps. That could be a good test for us (if we are below the average it's better to get some coaching, and half of us will be )

Regards, Alexander. http://staticlineinteractive.com

[DSE 3]

I've seen sub 100 number jumpers that can hit the tuffet or very close to it every time, and seen jumpers with a few hundred jumps not come close. It all depends on what you're working on. If you decide to make accuracy a priority, then your accuracy will likely improve. If you don't, and landing in a large general area is good enough, then your accuracy will probably stay in a "general" area.
FWIW, I pick an accuracy spot before boarding the aircraft. Can be a patch of weeds, might be a different color in the dirt/grass/ground, could be a pylon in the field, or any other landmark that isn't going to hurt you if you land on it.
Try a dozen jumps with only accuracy in mind once you're under canopy. I'll bet your percentage rises quickly.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Can be a patch of weeds, might be a different color in the dirt/grass/ground, could be a pylon in the field, or any other landmark that isn't going to hurt you if you land on it.

You might get a small neon-orange cone. Its easy to use and highly visible.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I am curious how the landing accuracy of other new jumpers changes with the number of jumps. I know that for B license we must have 10 landings within 10 meters and by 200 25 jumps within two meters of a target. But it's not like I can hit 10 meter radius on every jump no matter what, even though I passed the requirement for B license.

I've gone into my log book and plotted my accuracy vs number of jumps (for those jumps that I did log my accuracy Blush). It looks like it improves (slowly but surely). Though I still have jumps when I land as far as 30 meters of the target.

Your key can be lots of practice and consistency. We may talk about it, but you are going to have the feeling after enough practice. All you have to do is make an estimate of the size of the pattern depending on the wind and fly it.

[RandomLemming 0]

I'm really struggling with accuracy here in the UK - it's the main reason I'm going to have to freeze through winter. which is funny seeing as the full face helmet I tried on had _better_ visibility than my prescription goggles

I believe my requirement is 5 nominated landings out of 10 within 30 feet diameter (so maximum 15ft from the target).

My problem seems to be 3 fold

1. I'm a coward. As soon as I see anyone even remotely in my airspace, I change where I'm going to land. As long as I fly my pattern from one end to the other, I am fine, but any avoidance moves me off the target and I don't know how to fix this.

2. I get it mostly there towards the end of the day if I get around 5 jumps in. My last jump or two are normally within the target range. But I never get 5 jumps in in the UK, even now that it's summer. That would mean being on every 3rd load where I normally jump and that just doesn't happen.

3. Pattern. This is kinda related to 1, but if everyone is flying the same pattern and I can slot into it, my landings get better and more accurate. If there is no pattern, just an agreed landing direction, I am 100% focussed on dodging people and my landings aren't where I need them to be to get my B. That's a bit of a bummer because my 2 favourite DZs here don't enforce patterns, just landing direction most of the time.

I know that Empuriabrava, within 5 jumps, I'm landing within 10 metres of the target (still too far for my B, but much better). I've been able to do that from 40 jumps onwards because it's a big focus for me, getting my B.

I think more DZs offering low pass days on a regular basis would help put more focus on canopy work and landings, but not very many seem to do this. I'm guessing it's a demand issue - I seem to be the only person I know who looks forward to getting out at 3.5k. Heck, some of the regulars at JSC thought I was nuts when I got all excited that they offer low passes and started getting out early

[skytash 0]

You may want to ask whether you can do a climbing pass hop 'n' pop getting out low while the rest of the plane carried on upwards. I haven't jumped at Headcorn and it's been a long time since I've jumped at Hinton, so don't know about their local attitudes towards it, but I'd be surprised if they refuse to do it if you ask for a climbing pass.

Good for you to keep an eye out for others and try to stay out of their way, but you need to be careful to be predictable at the same time. If you can see them, they are likely to see you (unless they are below you). If you do something different from the general landing pattern to get out of someone's way you risk getting others worried that they don't know what you are doing next.

In my experience most instructors are happy to answer questions, so if at the beginning of the week-end, you speak to an instructor and say you would like to work on your accuracy but are encountering the problems you've just told us about, I'm sure they'll try to help you achieve your goal.

tash

edited 'cos I looked up what DZ you jump at and changed my answer accordingly from a more general one, which I could have done before posting in the first place

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[kelpdiver 2]

I think location dictates more.

As an AFF student landing on a small patch of grass surrounded by tarmac in moderate winds, I got very accurate. Then I finished the student jumps at a place with giant (multiple football) fields with nearly no wind. 5-10m went up to 50m in no time. Then i started working on the B requirements and got it trending downward again so I could get the 10 recorded. The 2m...I'm not sure what my strategy will be. (and I wonder how many people pencil whip those)

Traffic is the bit that gets in the way a lot for me. Given the huge landing field, I'll opt for spacing over the target. I don't think that's cowardly - seems stupid to crowd someone else just to get to my cone. I think I'd be better off doing the HnPs to work on accuracy.

[chrismgtis 0]

If you're not thinking about where you want to land and trying to hit that spot, you're not really going to get any better. You're just going to get lucky.

If you used to a large landing area and don't work on accuracy you're going to be in a lot of trouble when you go to a DZ with a smaller landing area.

Think about where you want to land every single time you jump and try to hit that spot right on.

I usually try different techniques every jump I make, so I land right on or way off randomly depending on what I do differently that time. When I'm going by eye and instinct I land within 20 feet every time, but I try not to do that.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[iamsam 0]

I agree with the last two posts. I've just got the landings I need for my B and something said to me that helped a lot was (traffic dependent of course) imagine that circle to be an island in a shark infested ocean, so don't just think I'd like to land there, think I can only land there.

but what do I know

[DSE 3]

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1. I'm a coward. As soon as I see anyone even remotely in my airspace, I change where I'm going to land. As long as I fly my pattern from one end to the other, I am fine, but any avoidance moves me off the target and I don't know how to fix this.

You need to get comfortable with other canopies around you in the air; that's important. You also need those around you to feel like you're comfortable, as uncomfortable often means unpredictable. If you need to know that others can see you, communicate with them by kicking your legs, kinda like "skywalking." They should respond in kind.
Phoenix, I've purchased 2 of those little plastic orange cones from a skateboard shop; they grow legs and disappear. We have a very weedy LZ, so I just choose a patch of weeds these days. Even mowed down, it's easy to spot.

[RandomLemming 0]

I'm definitely thinking about the spot I want to hit, but I've had a friendly chat with a CCI already about cutting people up in the air, and I'd rather avoid another of those 'constructive' discussions.

The only real tools I have for my landings are my pattern (downwind at about 1000, crosswind at about 800 - 600, then final between 400 and 200 all depending on wind) and the accuracy trick (brakes if needed down to 100ft). From 100 on, I just fly straight and level.

As long as I have the space to fly that, I do ok. Not great... 10 metres instead of 15 feet, but still not too bad, and it gets better as the day goes on.

Where I suffer is if there's someone below and in front me, but I seem to be passing them. Even with my brakes just before my stall point, I often still seem to be passing, so I choose another place to land and keep out of their way. The other one that gets me is people that move from being above me to being below me just before or during my pattern - that throws me right out.

I have tried seeking instruction, but as long as it's a jumping day, I've struggled to find time with either of the two instructors I can speak to at Headcorn. I can't blame them - they're running an entire DZ for the most part, and I understand where they're coming from.

I've got my eyes open for the next canopy course at Empuria because my landings were stellar there, even on a new canopy. I hope it comes soon though :(

[sjc 0]

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I've seen sub 100 number jumpers that can hit the tuffet or very close to it every time, and seen jumpers with a few hundred jumps not come close. It all depends on what you're working on.

I agree that everything depends. But that's why I am trying to find out what others are doing. Anyone is willing to provide how their accuracy is changing with the number of jumps? If we get a few people to do so we can see what the trend is.

Regards, Alexander. http://staticlineinteractive.com

[tkhayes 140]

I for one, do not believe that anyone knows how to teach accuracy or canopy landings, even today.

I am living proof of that. 1200 jumps, I was still only hitting the dropzone, but not the target.

Now I hit a target every time. whatever, whenever or wherever.

After years of trying to figure it out, I finally made it into some exercises that my students are having great success with. "TK's Accuracy Seminar"

I was debating whether to try and get something for it, but I would rather share the info, so I hope to see it someday in Parachutist, on dropzone.com as an article, I just have not gotten around to it yet.

As usual, fell free to distribute, but please at least give the credit where the credit is due.

send me an email and I will send to you [email protected] as it is too big to post here (PDF file)

TK [email protected]

[quade 3]

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I for one, do not believe that anyone knows how to teach accuracy or canopy landings, even today.

I dunno. The Air Force Cadets must be learning it from somewhere; they seem to do pretty well each year at Nationals.

The knowledge is out there. It's usually something that is past by most people in favor of more "flashy" things like turning points, going head down or swooping.

Another part of the problem, at least in the U.S. is that some of the things that are taught to students are actually a little counter productive to accuracy. This is actually quite natural as it's far more important to land safe rather than on target. Obviously the ideal goal is to do both, but if you're going to pick one priority over the other, land so you can walk away and do it again.

In aircraft flight training, we'll accept a "firm" and "positive" arrival when it comes to a nice accuracy landing, but "firm" doesn't work so well with ankles and knees as your only landing gear.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tkhayes 140]

Yes, but they are learning more traditional accuracy with parafoils and other accuracy models. That type of coaching is definitely available. But we do not teach the accuracy trick for normal people flying normal sport parachutes.

Those people too should be able to land to PRO rating standards within I would say 50 jumps or less. Definitely to B license standards by the time they finish their A license.

[chrismgtis 0]

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The other one that gets me is people that move from being above me to being below me just before or during my pattern - that throws me right out.

Well, if they are flying smaller canopies they may not be able to help it (faster descent?). Usually if you are below them they should be applying brakes to get vertical separation from you. It kind of depends, cause I would probably try to give someone that is moving a lot faster than me the right away.

You're pattern shouldn't really be effected too much by other canopies unless someone is doing something they shouldn't or you're at a large boogie just coming down from a big way. I mean, usually mine isn't with (between 23-35?) other canopies in the air.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[phoenixlpr 0]

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You're pattern shouldn't really be effected too much by other canopies unless someone is doing something they shouldn't or you're at a large boogie just coming down from a big way. I mean, usually mine isn't with (between 23-35?) other canopies in the air.

You can still drop some altitude without leaving your corridor in final with minimal heading change.

[riggerrob 558]

How big is your Pilot canopy?

How big/heavily-loaded are the other canopies on your load?

Since only the first and last canopies get a clear shot at the disc, may be you need to learn more about vertically spacing canopies.

Hint: if some one is passing you under canopy, they did a poor job of sequencing exits (i.e. fastest canopy out first and the slowest canopy out last).
They would be wiser to stagger openings (i.e. fastest canopy opens lowest, while the slowest canopy opens highest)

[RandomLemming 0]

I'm jumping a Pilot 190 loaded at 0.96:1.

I don't think canopy sizes and loadings are even considered when they arrange the exit order at any of the DZs I've been at. It's all been done based on freefall dive plan.

So if I'm in a 4-way (yeah, right - should be so lucky!), there's a good chance I'll be in the first group out the door. But a solo going out 4th, pulling at 3.5k might have a much smaller or higher loaded canopy than me. A freeflier going out 6th could be on an even smaller canopy than him, but if this particular DZ puts out flat first then freefliers, he's going to be going out 6th.

I do always tend to open fairly high if I know I'm the 'boat' on the load (which is most of the time :D unless there are students) but even so, I could be open a good 15 - 30 seconds before the guy with the 120 at 1.8:1 just based on our freefall dive plans.

[sjc 0]

I see that there are a few people with A license in this thread. Do you want to share your accuracy logs?

Regards, Alexander. http://staticlineinteractive.com

[kallend 1,640]

Depends what you're trying to do.

I have made maybe 2 accuracy jumps in the last 500. 99.8% of the time I'm jumping with large groups and the priority is landing safely without interfering with anyone else, which, IMO, should be everyone's first priority.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sjc 0]

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Depends what you're trying to do.

I have made maybe 2 accuracy jumps in the last 500. 99.8% of the time I'm jumping with large groups and the priority is landing safely without interfering with anyone else, which, IMO, should be everyone's first priority.

What I meant is that I would like to see how accuracy changes with the number of jumps. So I am looking for something like:
Jump #1 - 10 meters from target
Jump #2 - 5 meters from target
...
Jump #10 - 30 meters from target (first without radio support)
...
Ideally we would also need the canopy size and winds, then we could really see what is going on if a lot of people provide such information. But at first just the jump number and distance from target on that jump will do.

Yes some jumps were not accurate because of the traffic, but the trend still should be there. We do not know until we look at the plots.

Regards, Alexander. http://staticlineinteractive.com

[RandomLemming 0]

heh - that is my first priority, which is one of the reasons I never hit the circle.

But at some point I'm going to have to bite the bullet and start hitting that circle to get my B. I'm terrified of this point because I like landing slightly by myself, out of the crush of people.

At least the way I do it, I know that the only person I can hurt is me. Going for that circle puts me in the middle of other people, and I don't want to hurt anyone else.

[DougH 270]

Talk to your instructors about vertical seperation under canopy. With your pilot loaded at just under 1:1 you should be able open at a "normal" altitude and then hang in brakes and wait for the rest of the load to land and clear.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[chrismgtis 0]

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You can still drop some altitude without leaving your corridor in final with minimal heading change.

Yea I know, that's partially what I was saying. That he shouldn't have to get out of his flight plan because of traffic usually. The reason I say that is in 58 jumps I've never had to abort my original plan because of another canopy. Not that it won't happen.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan