Let's finish one war before we start another

[DZBone 0]

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McCain would have been a nice choice too.

I personally wouldn't call McCain a "nice" choice. I'm not that fond of him as a candidate. But I'd admit he has Bush beat in many areas.

He's definitely glorious and scary at the same time. He would have made Chaney look like a dove, but man, I get get that picture of him diving out of his burning aircraft out of my mind. Plus, what he had the guts to say about campaign reform, despite its ultimate demise, still needs to be said... And it cost him, but he doesn't seem to care.

_________________________________________________
If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound?

[freeflir29 0]

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I personally wouldn't call McCain a "nice" choice

No doubt...that little bitch votes according to how nice his last golf vacation, paid for by lobbyists, was. He's one of the worst "Flip Flop" voters out there.

[SudsyFist 0]

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He would have made Chaney look like a dove,

???

steve

[Gawain 0]

While not perfect in any way, what I really find attractive about W is his family as a whole, and the role it has played throughout his life. That can have a profound impact on a man. A very close family indeed. As much as we don't like to talk about it, a close knit family like the Bushs is a rather unusual nowadays.

It's fun to poke at him, and the best thing is, I don't think he minds, he comfortable with these perceived shortcomings. As much as we like to think it, W isn't a moron, he didn't get "A"s but attended great schools, flew F102s for the Air National Guard is keeping his presence "simple" in the light of certain things (like his daughter's drinking habits, or his niece's drug abuse).

It is some of these little quirks that I think make the majority of the US still give him a strong approval rating.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[wmw999 2,149]

McCain would have gotten my vote over either Bush or Gore. I don't agree with him on a lot, but he thinks about what's going on, and isn't afraid to back down from a previous stance.

Gore is just too old-school Democratic party. Smart, but realistically his chances of being able to push a lot through weren't great. Too much old history.

Bush is, well, Bush .

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[PhreeZone 15]

>flew F102s for the Air National Guard

He was AWOL for most of his time in the guard.

http://www.awolbush.com

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[freeflir29 0]

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He was AWOL for most of his time in the guard

Dude...it was the Guard. Not like anyone took that shit seriously anyway.....

[Gawain 0]

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>flew F102s for the Air National Guard

He was AWOL for most of his time in the guard.

http://www.awolbush.com

Why not reference a site that doesn't have such a blatant agenda....the site openly questions GHW Bushs shoot down in the pacific, where we faced our toughest battles.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhreeZone 15]

Would the Boston Globe be better?

And I'm not seeing on that site anywhere the elder Bush is mentioned, whats the link?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Gawain 0]

From the awolbush.com site, there's a link in the central upper right "Who Served"..where the GHW Bush is discussed.

Also, note from the AWOL site, the "copies" of the documents seem to indicate more of an administrative error (I'm not saying who did/did not show up for work), but read the comments in these "documents" of proof the site claims:

"He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187 Tac Recon Group Dannelly AFB, Alabama."

The Globe is reporting during the campaign of 2000...I'm sure that's really accurate!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Iflyme 0]

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freeing the slaves, giving equal rights to women, cleaning up the air

Bill, you know none of those things have really happened. Were are all slaves to giant corporations, working, shopping, living to make a few men repulsively rich. Maybe we live under different conditions than the Africans who were forced into slave labour in America, but we are still slaves, nevertheless.

Many women do not have equal rights. They have not reached financial equality when compared to men in the similar jobs. A very small percentage of coporate leaders are women. And how many of your countries political leaders are women?

And the air is more polluted now then ever before. The USA will not sign the Kyoto Accord. Your president himself is an oilman -- who is facilitating -- and indeed encouraging the production of more fossil fuel.

Sure, there has been a lot of hard work by people in the right direction, but we are VERY FAR from any sort of utopian society.

[billvon 2,434]

>Bill, you know none of those things have really happened. Were are
> all slaves to giant corporations . . . .

You can quit if you want. You may choose not to. That makes you a non-slave.

>shopping, living to make a few men repulsively rich.

Again, you can choose to not make anyone rich. Your choice.

>Maybe we live under different conditions than the Africans who were
> forced into slave labour in America, but we are still slaves,
> nevertheless.

George Orwell would be proud of you!

>Many women do not have equal rights. They have not reached
> financial equality when compared to men in the similar jobs.

Those are two different things. 21 year olds do not have wage equity with 40 year olds; San Jose workers do not have wage equity with workers from Needles, CA. That does not mean they don't have equal rights.

> A very small percentage of coporate leaders are women. And how
> many of your countries political leaders are women?

Not many. Equal _rights_ does not mean equal _numbers_, in anything. It just means equal opportunities.

Do women have all the same opportunities as men in the US? By law, yes. Is there some prejudice against them? Yes. That needs work. But we are pretty good in terms of legal protection.

>And the air is more polluted now then ever before.

Untrue. Look at how many people in NYC died in the 50's from coal plant pollution. Read up on Donora, PA in the 1940's. Check out smog levels in LA in 1970. In most places we are much, much better than we were. (Some places, like Texas, are worse.)

> The USA will not sign the Kyoto Accord. Your president himself is an
> oilman -- who is facilitating -- and indeed encouraging the
> production of more fossil fuel.

I agree there. We have a little ways to go. If everyone wants Kyoto, it will happen. If no one does, it won't.

>Sure, there has been a lot of hard work by people in the right
> direction, but we are VERY FAR from any sort of utopian society.

I never claimed that we had a utopian society. It's not bad, but we have a long way to go before we get to utopia. We likely never will, but by trying to get there we make the world a better place in the meantime.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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You do have all the good guns, but it isn't lost on the rest of the world that you hav'nt had a war against only white people in 85 years.

Except for Serbs and Germans and Italians. I didn't know whether to respond to this statement. I have a lot of friends in Cambridge, Massachusetts, a very ultra-left wing area. In certain circles they blurt out things like this because its more important to be politically hip than factually correct.

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Gawain 0]

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...the new colonialism, and you've lost every war so far...

...I think the US is the ultimate rouge state...

Just a thought. Use it, don't use it, whatever.

I don't think much of your thought there Tonto. Read a little more history, talk to some war vets, and take a deep breath. Blues....

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhreeZone 15]

I think he's looking at the US from outside, his opinion is one like it seems a lot of the world has. With huge protests going on all over the world that are anti-US and anti-iraqi war focus I think the we in the US need to take off our rose colored glasses and see how the rest of the world actually views us.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

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rose colored glasses

Ok, now that I have that song stuck in my head...

(seriously doubting if very many people here even know that old country song).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gawain 0]

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I think he's looking at the US from outside,

Well, according to his profile, he is in South Africa.

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his opinion is one like it seems a lot of the world has.

Which would be what? Journalists talk about buying goods on the streets of Baghdad, and those merchants love our American dollars. Politically speaking on the issue of Iraq, the gap isn't that wide, press releases indicate that even France is ready to commit as it obliged to with the UN resolution.

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With huge protests going on all over the world that are anti-US and anti-iraqi war

Where? ROK just had an election, they're pissed about our solidiers getting off scott free in an vehicular fatality. Where else are the massive protests? Tonto ranted about "US Colonialism"...shit, check the headlines, France is now engaged in Cote d'Ivoire, militarily engaging rebel troops trying to line up positions against the Ivory Coast Army. Where are the massive cries of bloody murder because of the former EU colonies that have been in a sh*t storm for the past 50 years. All protests, in the US and elsewhere ususally involve a very vocal minority, where if they've accomplished anything, they've accomplished providing an inconvenience...

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...focus I think the we in the US need to take off our rose colored glasses and see how the rest of the world actually views us.

No rose colored glasses here, and there are no rose colored glasses in our foreign policy either. World opinion of the US changes with the weather....on 9/11, the world became one nation. Russia's Putin was the first to call "W" saying, "Those responsible for this must not go unpunished." I saw the pictures of Jaques Chirac as he addressed the French government, true sadness and subtle anger. God bless Tony Blair for his consistent encouragement, for while the populace of the British people may not agree on Iraq, do they really have an overall negative opinion of us? Probably not, but I could be wrong. Now, over a year later, the shock has worn off and people are forgetting the pain, the event, the outrage. Countries that are vehemently against war with Iraq have a monetary incentive at stake. The EU is actively engaged in trade talks with Iran...they shouldn't get too cozy (IMO).

My issue with Tonto's post was that of "facts". Rouge state? War crimes? Lost wars, lost peace? If people, with no concept of linear history and the events that transpired in the last 70 years on a geo-political scale, are getting angry at their warped perception of what's really happening in places like Iraq, then I'm only too happy to oblige.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kmcguffee 0]

Part of the "Blame America First" crowd huh. All of the bad stuff that happens to us is our own fault, don't blame anybody else.

As for international opinion of the US. 3,000 people protesting in the UK against war with Iraq is not significant, but it gets a lot of press. This isn't a popularity contest either. We have got to do what is in our best interests even if some other countries disagree with it. Other countries do what is in their best interest. If we take issue with them then we have to do something politically or economically to change their minds. That is how the world turns.

I have to agree with Billvon on this thread. We need to stay with economic and political pressure as long as possible. The threat of war is the only thing that has made Iraq move and we have to keep up the pressure in that area, but it doesn't mean we have to go to war.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Tonto 1]

Mmm.

Being told a lot of things... I said exclusively white for 85 years. Exclusively.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Tonto 1]

Hey Gwain,

It's an opinion. It's also non American. Not anti American. Just non American.

I am a vet - but not from the US. I've seen my war and death, and its pointless.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Gawain 0]

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It's an opinion. It's also non American. Not anti American. Just non American.

I am a vet - but not from the US. I've seen my war and death, and its pointless.

I won't pretend to understand or relate to your experiences that shaped your opinions...but as you ponder that magic word, remember the first definition of its meaning: "o-pin-ion n. 1. A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof."

Opinions are personal judgments, usually based on an estimation of fact, or prevailing view. Or, it is predicated on law, by a legal body or court. Stating your opinion that the US is a rogue state is a pretty strong statement, and is contrary to how we have conducted ourselves and in essence is anti-US. You have your opinion, great. You said take or leave it. I stated clearly that I leave it. The perception I took from your statement was, based on past observations I've made from others that don't live here, was that is was based not on experience, or general appreciation of historical facts, but on a gut feeling driven by a prevailing view without the input of special knowledge.

Nearly half the US isn't in favor of a war with Iraq, but I know that whatever transpires, we tend to stick together and move forward.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gawain 0]

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Being told a lot of things... I said exclusively white for 85 years. Exclusively.

As in, top-to-bottom, caucasian no other mix-color-creed type thing...so Vietnam no, Korea no, WWII...well Germany was an Arian state, how does that not count (because we had non-"white" people fighting on our side?)? WWI...um....Civil War no...hmmm

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Jimbo 0]

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I said exclusively white for 85 years. Exclusively.

Is there a country left on this planet that is exclusively white? Exclusively.

Are you suggesting that US foreign policy is racially motivated?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[PhreeZone 15]

This Was the main protest that poped into my mind. All though I guess "estimated that about 300,000 people had turned out" is'nt enough people to worry about.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,434]

>Journalists talk about buying goods on the streets of Baghdad,
>and those merchants love our American dollars.

What does that mean? Iraq bought chemical weapons and bomb parts from the US; Pakistan (our ally, supposedly) sells North Korea nuclear materials. Terrorists especially love American dollars, and we historically love to give them money. Does that mean all that is OK?

>press releases indicate that even France is ready to commit as it
>obliged to with the UN resolution.

France supports the current resolution, which does not call for war. As I recall, it calls for serious consequences for a material breach.

>on 9/11, the world became one nation.

No, we would just like to think it did. When 10,000 were gassed and killed in India from a US chemical spill, did the world become one nation? When Russia killed 3500 in Chechnya, did the world unite against them?

We like to think that American deaths are much more significant than deaths anywhere else. They're not. Any violent death is sad, and mass deaths are all too common throughout the world. 9/11 was a great tragedy for the US, but it was not unique and did not unite the world. (Although it certainly did scare the western world.)

>Now, over a year later, the shock has worn off and people are
>forgetting the pain, the event, the outrage.

I agree. We're starting to reduce our forces in Afghanistan, and UN reports indicate Al Quaeds camps are starting up again. We shouldn't slack off until we eliminate the threat to our country.

Not sure what that has to do with Iraq though.