Ted Nelson Accident Anniversary

[ianmdrennan 2]

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New skydivers going for their first jumps or early training don't get those magazines. The general public needs the information as they make that first decision to jump.

You lost me. What does someone making their first jump have to do with Ted's decisions? Not sure what point you're trying to make here?

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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The general public needs the information as they make that first decision to jump.

Skydiving is not nearly as dangerous as the general public thinks it is. Yet in the same breath, skydiving is far less safe than many active jumpers think it is.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[stratostar 5]

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Your self-policing obviously isn't working.

No it's working, that dz has been banned for life from USPA for many reasons.

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You need only look at all the accidents and deaths in just the last year caused by low turns and canopy collisions.

We do look at them and just like Ted, they fucked up, end of story. Ted commited an act of suicide, he knew the risk was DEATH if he messed up a hook turn, as have many before him and as many more to follow, that is the risk you take when you jump out of an aircraft in flight, you can do everything right and still die! We all know this and take that risk and Ted knew and took that risk, and he lost.

You need to learn to deal with your loss.

Maybe you should write the state house and try get a "Ted's" law passed , good luck with that.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tedsauntcindy 0]

Hey, I'll tell that to Cliff Heller's family. Mistakes made do endanger the lives of others...skydivers and those on the ground as well. Didn't some skydiver land hard in someone's yard in New Jersey or thereabouts this year? I see "public interest" all over this issue.

[pilotdave 0]

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New skydivers going for their first jumps or early training don't get those magazines. The general public needs the information as they make that first decision to jump.

This site, easily found by anyone wanting to skydive, has a database of worldwide skydiving fatalities. We don't make any attempt, especially in the US, to cover up any fatality. The information is widely available, including discussions of what may have caused the accident and what could have prevented it. Do you think Ted didn't have access to that information?

What would you like to do different? Where do you recommend publishing the fatality reports (or worse yet, statistics)?

Maybe dropzones should put up signs that say "Warning: Skydiving is Addictive!" for all those first timers to see.

Dave

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I see "public interest" all over this issue.

I see "personal agenda".

Having lost people close to me I can understand your grief (and anger) but you really need to realized that Ted made his decisions as an adult (right or wrong doesn't matter) and that is something we cannot, and should not legislate.

In the end it's a simple matter of personal accountability AND accepting the risks we take.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[beowulf 1]

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New skydivers going for their first jumps or early training don't get those magazines. The general public needs the information as they make that first decision to jump.

And you think this would have helped Ted? Have you read what Ted wrote here on Dropzone.com?

[tedsauntcindy 0]

Personal agenda, you bet! But it is a personal agenda that was created today after reading the mean-spirited posts disguised supposedly as "education" in this thread. But whatever the motivation, perhaps the time to legislate skydiving has come. Many other sports (with far fewer risks) have faced legislatlive intervention. Motorcycle helmets, anyone?

[tedsauntcindy 0]

Personal agenda, you bet! But it is a personal agenda that was created today after reading the mean-spirited posts disguised supposedly as "education" in this thread. But whatever the motivation, perhaps the time to legislate skydiving has come. Many other sports (with far fewer risks) have faced legislatlive intervention. Motorcycle helmets, anyone?

[tedsauntcindy 0]

Well, I guess we can leave it to the wisdom of our elected officials to make the determination of whether the specific information is accessible enough to newbies. I'll gather my facts; you gather yours.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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But whatever the motivation, perhaps the time to legislate skydiving has come.

So you would "honor" Ted's memory by trying to do something he was apparently so very much against?

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Many other sports (with far fewer risks) have faced legislatlive intervention. Motorcycle helmets, anyone?

Motorcycle helmets are not required in all states. At a competitive level it is required by a governing body - not the government - just like the PST, CPC and any canopy piloting competition I've ever attended has REQUIRED.

Incidently, while off topic, if you think motorcyclists are a lower risk demographic you need to do some research in that area.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[klingeme 0]

[tedsauntcindy 0]

They are required in MY state. I guess my legislature is rather interventionist of personal liberties.

[tedsauntcindy 0]

Yeah, I just might so "honor" Ted. Actually, I have honored Ted in many ways...including a scholarship fund...but you folks are bringing out the liberal in me.

[pilotdave 0]

I think you might be mixing up two totally separate issues. One is giving potential skydivers correct and sufficient information about the safety of skydiving. The second is to prevent skydivers like Ted from being able to make their own decisions which lead to their deaths.

As for the first part, pretty much every DZ makes everyone sign a waiver that outright says that skydiving is really freaking dangerous. I'm not sure how much more clear that can be made. MOST dropzones have never had a tandem fatality. So dropzones could easily say "never had a student die here, so you're safe." But they don't do that. They tell every potential skydiver that by making a skydive, they're taking a very large risk.

As for the second part, preventing experienced jumpers from killing themselves... a lot of skydivers support you in that we need more rules. I don't think we need non-skydiving lawmakers to come up with those rules. That'd be silly. We have the USPA, our self-governing body. We also have rules from the FAA. Skydivers are constantly discussing what rules are needed and where we should be focusing our attention in order to prevent accidents. People like Ted are the exact reason we might need rules instead of just education. That's the whole point of this thread. That's why people are discussing his death, and his attitude before his death. The purpose is not to knock him, it's to point out to the new jumpers that have joined us since Ted's death that attitudes can kill.

Dave

[chuckbrown 0]

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Personal agenda, you bet! But it is a personal agenda that was created today after reading the mean-spirited posts disguised supposedly as "education" in this thread. But whatever the motivation, perhaps the time to legislate skydiving has come. Many other sports (with far fewer risks) have faced legislatlive intervention. Motorcycle helmets, anyone?

Your posts, unfortunately, remind me of your nephew's. Neither you or he wanted to accept views that counter your own. Fortunately, you won't pay nearly as high a price as he did for refusing to accept differing (and legitimate) viewpoints. You should remember the best about him and stop visiting this website. It obviously does nothing productive for you.

[AFFI 0]

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New skydivers going for their first jumps or early training don't get those magazines. The general public needs the information as they make that first decision to jump.

When I made my first jump, honestly, I was under the impression that skydiving produced many more fatalities annually than what really takes place. All of the students I have trained seem to have that same notion.
We are jumping out of airplanes from miles above the surface of the planet with only a few pounds of fabric in which to survive. We even sign waivers that clearly indicate there are inherent dangers associated with skydiving. In addition to this, before making a first tandem, there is even a video we show all students that discuss and inform them as to the inherent dangers in skydiving.
That being said, wouldn’t just about any sensible individual consider skydiving highly dangerous? It does not take a genius to figure this out.

The first time I witnessed someone perish (it seems as if it were only yesterday) it was a person who was warned by others that the approach they were taking to learning high performance landings was too rapid and they were cautioned to slow down their progression but they did not listen and paid the ultimate price. This was an event I did not enjoy watching, but it really taught me that the potential consequences that attempting high performance landings can carry and made me a better mentor and instructor to emphasize safety as the first and utmost priority above all else.

Accidents like this happen so rarely compared to the frequency that normal uneventful landings occur. Most skydivers do not have the opportunity to witness such a tragedy that will encourage them to make safety a priority, which is why we discuss such incidences so the learning can take place on a broader scale amongst the skydiving community. I most certainly do not intend any disrespect to the survivors of fallen skydivers and I strongly suspect that others have no such intention either. What we are attempting to do is to illustrate possible hazards to those who have yet to obtain a deep respect for the inherent dangers associated and the importance of allowing others to mentor us to the safe end of the spectrum of the activities we all willingly participate in.

If it grieves you so deeply to read the opinions of those who feel the need to discuss this incident for whatever reason, then why not decide to subject yourself to such lines of communication less?

I am truly and sincerely sorry for your loss, and are in my prayers…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[DSE 3]

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Your posts, unfortunately, remind me of your nephew's. Neither you or he wanted to accept views that counter your own. Fortunately, you won't pay nearly as high a price as he did for refusing to accept differing (and legitimate) viewpoints. You should remember the best about him and stop visiting this website. It obviously does nothing productive for you.

I was about to say the same thing. One thing that holds invariably true; folks that predict these sorts of events turn out to be correct, eventually.
Having lost a child myself (I realize Ted is your nephew), I understand the anger that comes from the loss. If you read each of Ted's posts in this community, you'll see that he wanted to teach as well as learn, as well as sometimes not listen. I can imagine the responses he'd be making to you if you weren't a relative, posting about someone else' situation. "Honoring" Ted by insulting those that would like to learn from his mistake doesn't seem to be honoring him, but rather causing negative feelings in yourself and others.
Ted is gone. He's gone because he made a mistake. A tragic one. Compounding that tragedy by insulting and threatening those that tried to save his life (literally) doesn't benefit anyone, least of all Ted's memory. Perhaps a poor choice of words was used in the memory of how Ted left; it's understandable that you'd take offense. This thread, and particularly the threads in which Ted indicated his virtual invulnerability have caused me to step back and take a second, third, and fourth look at my own skills; I have about the same number of jumps as he did, but I'm not flying nearly as aggressively.
"Legislating" skydiving is simply a stupid thing to threaten. More people are killed on the golf course every year, far more are killed in equestrian activities, and in those activities, one doesn't sign a waiver that says "You'll die in in pursuit of this sport."
Ted seemed to be about freedom. Freedom of expression, freedom of choice, freedom to experience life. Restricting those freedoms is something he'd clearly be opposed to.
I'd submit that you'd do better honoring him by recognizing this. And understand while this subject is deeply, indelibly personal for you, for most of us, it is not. If even one post in this or other threads saves a life or prevents an injury, Ted would likely applaud it, as he did on many other occasions here on DZ.com.
I'm sorry for your loss, but please appreciate our viewpoint in trying to learn from your loss.

[Thanatos340 1]

Ted was repeatedly told how dangerous his decisions to downsize was. This is well documented on this very site. He was talked too by many. It did no good. He thought he was “Ahead of the Curve”. He didn’t listen. He died.

But using him as an Example for others that think they are also "ahead of the curve" when it comes to downsizing could possibly help save other lives.

What do you really want accomplish?? Revenge on a sport that Ted loved or Try to save others that think like he did?

Pointing out the threads where he was told he was getting ahead of his skills and the eventual outcome of that to others that think they too are bullet proof would have much more effect that a Sign that says out of X,000,000 Skydives last year X people died (The vast majority of which were VERY experienced jumpers under a fully functioning parachute that did something stupid).

And if you were able to get a law passed, the VAST Majority of Dropzones (90% to 95% most likely) would be able to say NO Fatalities and NO serious accidents last year. That would actually give most people a false since of security. Skydiving IS dangerous no matter what the numbers say.

[tedsauntcindy 0]

I only visited this site for the anniversary of Ted's death. However, when I did, I saw that the personal attacks from DZ.comer's haven't mellowed in the past. Interestingly, I never see the same level of vitriol leveled at other skydivers whose mistakes have cost them (and in some cases, others) their lives. The pompoous I read claiming to be about education and self-policing merely got me to thinking. Self-policing does not seem to be working very well, Perhaps my time and skills can be devoted into seeing that some real education and policing can take place. I'll do my thing; you do yours.

[tedsauntcindy 0]

Then the legislaltion I propose would not really be much of an issue, would it? It would simply help the public identify that small percentage that might have recurring problems.

[AFFI 0]

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Then the legislaltion I propose would not really be much of an issue, would it? It would simply help the public identify that small percentage that might have recurring problems.

Would you plese provide us with a copy of your proposal so we can better understand?

[OnYourBack 0]

You aren't the first angered relative who can only see their deceased loved one as a poor victim. Like those others though, you probably won't make any real changes to the system. In the end, you will most likely just have wasted your own preciously short time on the earth dwelling on the past and neglecting the joy you could be sharing with the loved ones you have that are still living.

[tedsauntcindy 0]

Trust me, Ted was no victim! He was very bright, very gifted and made his own decisions. I admired him. But I don't see why my legislative proposal scare you folks. According to a previous post, only a small percentage of DZ's experience serious accidents or fatalities. Shouldn't the irresponsible few be highlighted to the general publis?

[billvon 2,402]

Let's not devolve to personal commentary, and instead discuss the issues surrounding Ted's death and how to prevent such deaths in the future.