What should happen to the USAF Pilots that Friendly Fire bombed the Canadians?

[IronMike 0]

I think it is going to get ugly for the USAF once the facts start coming to light....Drugs, cover ups.....I think these 2 pilots should be exonerated......I think the system will prove to have been flawed and these guys are scapegoats...

Mike

[jfields 0]

Damned good question, Mike.

I don't know the answer.

The video w/ voice I heard this morning clearly shows that they fired before the clarification. But if they thought they were under attack, maybe the rules call for that.

Regardless of their individual actions, the whole incident does illustrate major problems with the information flow in the combat area.

Sad result, in any case, for both the Canadian soldiers and their families, as well as the pilots. It doesn't seem like they did it intentionally, and they'll have it on their consciences forever.

[TomAiello 25]

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....Drugs, cover ups.....

Nearly a third of the schoolchildren in America are on those same (or similar but stronger) drugs. Why should the soldiers be any different?
I dunno. I've jumped on those same drugs. It didn't seem to impair my judgment. Heck, I know a jumper whose doctor ordered them to take those drugs for jumping days.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Guest]

Sad fact is, that shit happens, especially in combat.

A war zone is dangerous even when there isn't any shooting going on.

Under the rules of engagement, the pilots were allowed to act without waiting for confirmation if they believed they were being attacked. They should have had intelligence that there were friendlies in the area. For these to individuals to be punished when the entire system that supported them let them down is nothing short of criminal.

In battle, a moment's hesitation can be fatal.

For the brass to second-guess them is nothing but a political move aimed at mollifying the Canadians.

The worst repercussion of this is that in the future, airmen in a similar situation might hesitate to act, for fear they'll be court-martialled...

And that's the same as murder.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[riggerrob 561]

The military are such incredible hypocrits when it comes to drug use.
You will get addicted to this, this and this drug, but if you touch any of the drugs on that list, you will get thrown in jail.
A couple of years ago, FLYING Magazine provided a remarkable insight into the USAF briefing process, in a cover story involving F-16 fighters patrolling the no-fly-zone over Northern Iraq. The first day in country, a pilot sat through a briefing that contained way more information than anyone could absorb in one sitting. Everyone involved with the briefing knew that it was a overload of information, but it covered the brass's asses legally.
The short term solution is to make scapegoats out of a couple of pilots, but the long term solution is for the USAF to revamp its policies on drugs. In the long term, the USAF should either drop its drug policy altogether, or take it seriously. Taking drug use seriously involves exposing pilots (in a training environment) to drugs over a period of a week or two while they are closely monitored by psychologists, pharmacists and check pilots.
When you take drug use seriously, it becomes a prohibitively expensive process.
Finally, all drug use should be irecorded in servicemen's permanent medical records and be reflected in their pensions.

[Guest]

I'm with you on that.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[dterrick 0]

Poor Scapegoats...

Quiteagree that the normal "FDA approval process" is NOT followed when the military is concerned (my sis works in Regulatory affairs for a drug company in the bay area so I know a bit about what they'd need to do to get , um..., "treatments" approved).

How bout LSD?!?!? THAT was tested real well... then "they" lost control.

Guess we learn well from our past mistakes.

***

I wonder if the "intelligence" would have gotten through if it was an American exercise taking place? I bet not (or not in time anyway) and I bet we'd not have heard about it at all. However, as it involved foreigners, it also involved foreign policy ... something in which the Bush administration appears to be a bit weak. (IMHO). I bet there's more than 2 pilots that feel bad about the system's failure... but a whole lot more who simply think "it's just part of the game".

Damn I hate even having to THINK of these things

Dave

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[murrays 0]

Here's one Canuck's opinion:

I think they should be at most reprimanded and nothing more.

The Canadians weren't displaying a flashing red light during the training exercise as required by US procedures...this is a failure at a higher level to communicate safeguards that should be in place.

I'm really sorry some of our guys lost their lives but I also feel for the pilots who have this on their consciences.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[bigben 0]

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Nearly a third of the schoolchildren in America are on those same (or similar but stronger) drugs. Why should the soldiers be any different?

I dunno. I've jumped on those same drugs. It didn't seem to impair my judgment. Heck, I know a jumper whose doctor ordered them to take those drugs for jumping days.

I haven't heard much about the drugs in the news I read. What's the deal, what were they taking?

-Ben

[Cornholio 0]

Oh GREAT! Now, we're at war with the Canadians ?
When did this shit happen ?

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump

[TomAiello 25]

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...what were they taking?

Dexadrine. It's a prescription amphetamine used to treat ADHD. It heightens attention to detail, attention span and alertness. I guess that's why the AF gives it to pilots. Long haul truckers are rumored to use a lot of the stuff, as well.
I've personally found it very useful for long drives, road trips, and all night jumping sessions.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Guest]

Doesn't it mess with night vision?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[PhillyKev 0]

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Doesn't it mess with night vision?

Only if you crush it up and snort it.

[TomAiello 25]

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Doesn't it mess with night vision?

Hasn't appeared to. I tend to pull higher at night, anyway, though.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[mountainman 0]

My thoughts?

If I was being fired upon by someone, they would get some retalliation. If it WAS an enemy and those pilots had to wait for some damn clearance, they could have been shot down or killed in that time.

Screw it ! I say the military needs to get some better system for that situation or perhaps the Canuks and the Yankees should figure out who is where at times.

http://www.brandonandlaura.com

[Zenister 0]

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If it WAS an enemy and those pilots had to wait for some damn clearance, they could have been shot down or killed in that time.

uh not from small arms fire they couldnt..lack of judgement all around, but the pilots are the ones who pulled the trigger without waiting for clearance...and violated the ROE..

there is a reason why the military uses rules of engagement, its to prevent incidents such as this, even when those rules sacrifice some level of saftey for the 'good guys'

they screwed up even if they arent the only ones ones who did...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[rhino 0]

Fog of War... I think they should learn from it and implement a system that would prevent it from ever happening again.. As far as the pilots? They should not be held responsible..

Rhino

[txojumps 0]

Your getting to be a poll whore

***************************************
Awright, guys, you don't have one, so don't act like one

[IronMike 0]

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Your getting to be a poll whore

I figured 2 things out...
1. How to do polls
2. How to do quotes

Tell me more!!

I have learned the hard way not to EVER drink and post. I can be just as big of an asshole one line as I am in person when Im drunk.

Mike

[CanEHdian 0]

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uh not from small arms fire they couldnt..lack of judgement all around, but the pilots are the ones who pulled the trigger without waiting for clearance...and violated the ROE..

I think that's the clincher

Cheers,
CanEHdian

Time's flying, and so am I...
(69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records)

[harryskydives 0]

War and Training for war is risky business. And friendly fire is a sad fact of war. "Good Judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement." When you are being shot at you dont care what color the tracers are. I hope the pilots dont get hosed, but i feel for the Canadians and their families.

Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time...

[mountainman 0]

Didn't hear what they were shooting with.

However, why were they shooting at a plane with small arms.

LOL!!

http://www.brandonandlaura.com

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

The Canadians weren't displaying a flashing red light during the training exercise as required by US procedures...this is a failure at a higher level to communicate safeguards that should be in place.

I'm really sorry some of our guys lost their lives but I also feel for the pilots who have this on their consciences.

I agree. They made a decision that must be made quickly with incomplete information during a highly stressfull situation. You have to look at it from their point of view not from hindsight. I feel for all of the lives lost but it is not the fault of the pilots. This has happened with Americans on the losing end and I feel the same way in that situation too.

To say that the system is broke is to misunderstand combat. You will never have 100% visibility of everything occurring on the battlefield. We strive for it but it will never happen. One person cannot assimilate that much information as quickly as is needed. The system can always be improved though. If anyone violated a safeguard that would have prevented this then they should be punished but we should not ruin people in order to appease the public.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[GrumpySmurf 0]

It appears it was a live fire exercise for the PPLI - at fictious enemy targets.
Appearantly all pilots in theatre were notified of areas where friendlies were engaging in exercises (pulled from an Associated Press article carried by CNN):

"
Col. Lawrence Stutzriem said that air combat orders U.S. pilots were required to read included information that coalition ground forces would intermittently use live ammunition in the area where Air Force Maj. Harry Schmidt's bomb killed four Canadians on April 17.
.
.
.

At the time of the bombing, Stutzriem was with the agency responsible for all coalition air operations. He said it was "very clear" to pilots that allies could be performing live-fire maneuvers on a firing range called Tarnak Farm. "

A summary of the sequence of events (I am guessing the flashes he saw were C-7/M-16 and C-9/M-249 rifle fire and the artillery might have been thier APC):
"In the recording, taken from Schmidt's F-16, Schmidt spots flashes on the ground and requests permission to fire his cannon.

He is told by superiors to wait. Umbach says: "Let's just make sure that, uh, that it's not friendlies, that's all."

A short time later, Schmidt is heard saying: "OK, I've got ... some men on a road and it looks like a piece of artillery firing at us. I am rolling in, in self-defense." That meant he was rolling in to drop the bomb. The video shows a large explosion. "

It appears from the summary of the tape they requested permission to engage, permission was denied, so they (erroneously) decided to go in for a closer look (???) and then decided to engage. My question is, why didn't they just request permission to high tail it out of the area when they thought they saw hostiles with possible AA cannons and were told to hold off engaging - rather then decending and closing on what could be a hostile, thus increasing the risk to themselves? Even with 'it's war - blue on blue happens' - they disobeyed an order, which is not acceptable behavior for an Officer - to me that's the heart of it - regardless who got hurt or killed.

[IronMike 0]

http://www.ussindianapolis.org/mcvay.htm

This a very interesting story about a the Captain on the USS Indianapolis that was sunk at the end of WW2. The Navy Court Martialed him. His surviving crew and even the Captain of the Jap sub that sank him defended him. He was finally exonerated by Congress in 2000. The story of this sinking and what happened to the survivors is one of the most vile of WW2. Unfortunately, Capt. McVeigh commited suicide from the shame he felt. It was not one of the Navys proudest episodes nor will this Canadian Friendly Fire incident be one of the USAF's.

Mike