morten 0 #1 July 28, 2007 I saw this video 2 days ago: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5096 On the very next jump I had 3-4 line twists and tried the technique: Twist the risers in the opposite direction of the line twists, moving the twists from the lines down to the risers. The untwisting was prompt, starting about the time the lines were straight. Comments anyone? I can't find a thread on DZ on this - please direct me to it, if it's already here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #2 July 28, 2007 Personally i use the 'pull the risers apart and kick in the opposite direction of twists technique'...rarely get line twists tho,i think twice in the last 500 jumps..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #3 July 28, 2007 Do you think that intentionally twisting up your riser, toggles, and excess brake line (possibly some slider) is a good idea? Do you ever wear gloves? What if one of those gets stuck in there, or something gets stuck on the glove (which you might not feel) and you pull it out when you remove your hands from the risers. Maybe stick with spread the risers and kick. I can't see any reason not to stick with the way you were taught. I've used that technique while spinning rapidly under my Velo, and it worked like a charm. I can't think of any line twist scenario where it wouldn't work, nor any drawback to doing it that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 3 #4 July 28, 2007 I was taught a method by a Russian Jumper Vasili (21,000+ jumps) that is basically that in the video. Difference being that instead of holding the risers one hand on each at the start just push them together. no Danger of being caught up in the twists that way and also it helps bring the twists down the lines allowing the canopy to breathe. I have had to use it a few times from highly loaded x-brace to Tandem canopies and it works well.I like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #5 July 28, 2007 The video was a classic demonstration of what NOT to do on line twists. You need your hands to cut away and deploy the reserve. You certainly do not want them trapped in spun up lines/risers. edited: fur spilling Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morten 0 #6 July 28, 2007 I think that the part with a riser in each hand is BEFORE he implements "the method". Today I was jumping barehanded, and I didn't see any risk of getting stuck between risers. Other posters may have a point about not noticing if your gloves get stuck. Has anybody tried this with bad side-effects? edited to add: I've just viewed the video again: The only time I see risk of getting caught up in the twists is when he tries to pull the risers apart before he starts the "revese the twists" operation aka "the method". His hands are never between the risers after that point Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #7 July 29, 2007 Let me ask one more time - What's wrong with spreading your risers and kicking? This is a proven method used by first jump students everywhere with no ill effects. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #8 July 29, 2007 Quote I saw this video 2 days ago: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5096 On the very next jump I had 3-4 line twists and tried the technique: Twist the risers in the opposite direction of the line twists, moving the twists from the lines down to the risers. The untwisting was prompt, starting about the time the lines were straight. Comments anyone? I can't find a thread on DZ on this - please direct me to it, if it's already here I use the (quite successfull) method of putting my arms and legs together and just hanging there, while all the mentioned methods work, you do risk getting confused and kicking the wrong way, or while fighting it, making it worse. I developed this method after doing heavy drops with PD for high speed deployment testing. I noticed that almost every one of the stationary weights spun up on opening, they always came out of line twist very fast. Since starting that style I have recovered from some serious line twists qute quickly, even from two high g spinning malfunctions. Im not saying this method is foolproof, or even suggesting people change what they have been taught, there is a lot of years of experience that went into the kick and spread technique. I just wanted to let people know of this option. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #9 July 30, 2007 Quote I developed this method after doing heavy drops with PD for high speed deployment testing. I noticed that almost every one of the stationary weights spun up on opening, they always came out of line twist very fast. There is something to be said about this... I had a bad spinning mal, two twists, on a 1.5 loaded fully elliptical today. My hands were up on the risers as I was kicking. The video shows my head shaking left and right (either in disbelief that I would have to repack my reserve that I just put in the container so nicely a few weeks ago, or because it was moving with the kicks. I am going to go with the 'moving with the kicks' theory) I realized that it was not recoverable after burning thru some altitude. My neptune said my average speed at 3K was 174 MPH and I deployed at 2300 feet. In reality I pulled at 3.5K and was not out of the twists until 2300. Of note, this was a sitfly jump, 172 at 9K, 123 at 6K as we were tracking (we broke early for an unrelated reason), then 174 MPH in the twists at 3K. The canopy was diving as fast as I sitfly! Anyway, I brought my hands to my cutaway handle, and due to the G forces I could not even see the handle, so it took a second to find it, so it was difficult getting my hand lined up. In the two seconds I played with finding my handle, I suddenly spun out of the twists and was flying, albeit erratically and still in a dive, for another 500 feet, until the canopy finished it's recovery arc... The video clearly shows the twists NOT getting better until I got smaller (legs in, arms down) and stopped kicking concentrating on the handle. I have a new appreciation for the difficulty grabbing the cutaway in high G situations, and clearly have proof that kicking was not as useful as getting small, just as you said. Now - every mal will be different, but this is not the first time I have experienced the canopy fix itself in high G twisty dives. The only time I have kicked and found it to work well is when the canopy is flying straight and there is no other G force or spin to throw you out of the twists. Every other time, it has fixed itself (although if this one happens again I am chopping before kicking as the G forces were adding up). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #10 July 30, 2007 I don't why you would want to intentionally transfer twists down to the risers, and especially to where the toggles are stored. Just watching him do that in the video makes me cringe. It would seem to be easy for things to get goofed up. What if the velcro from one toggle got caught on the keeper for the other? It just plain looks bad to see toggles getting twisted up in anything. I'll stick to the standard method, and add that similar to others; I've noticed they usually undo themselves on their own at about the same speed. I just think a little effort is good protocol." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
morten 0 #11 July 31, 2007 Thank you all for your input! I can see the unhealthy possibilities in tangling the toggles. I may try the "do nothing but keep straight" method next time I have linetwists, although the weather in Denmark seems to keep me safe from linetwists these days As for the "Why don't you stick with what you've learnt in the FJC?" question: It contradicts the "Learn as long as you live"-rule that I try to follow Quote I just think a little effort is good protocol. Doing nothing may require an immense mental effort Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tto78 0 #12 August 1, 2007 On this subject I'd like to contribute with experience gained from a recent reserve ride of mine. I deployed into linetwists and initially my Sabre2-135 (at WL ~1.6) was reasonably stable. As I grabbed the risers and started kicking it almost immediately went into a diving spin making further efforts to solve this malfunction pointless due to the heavy G's it was pulling. The spin - in my opinion - started as I started kicking. In a linetwist configuration with only 1-2 twists it is possible to pull one riser/linegroup down without it being able to get back up. I cannot say if it happend because I was pulling on the risers or if it was the sudden shift of my body in the harness. However, I believe a few twists could turn out to be more of a challenge than many. Attached you will find a picture of my spinning Sabre2 with the uneven risers. The video is also available here http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5998 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 August 1, 2007 You don't even need uneven risers. Do a hard riser turn after opening when breaks are still set..... The turn/dive might not stop by itself.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #14 August 1, 2007 QuoteYou don't even need uneven risers. Do a hard riser turn after opening when breaks are still set..... The turn/dive might not stop by itself.... Learned that one on a full alti hop and pop. Sabre2 190 at 1.3ish. 3000 feet later I inally got out of it. Learned when I landed tht popping the brakes would have been so much easier. And to the poster several posts above talking about neptune speeds.....those are about as reliable as the word of a taiwanese hooker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSOK 0 #15 August 4, 2007 To the neptune speeds... I'm pretty sure that's not right. I mean, you throw anything out there, and it will add drag and slow you down, no matter how collapsed/distortioned/twisted the thing is. The riser twisting thing seems like it worked in that case, but what about others? And I'd also be iffy about adding twists with the toggles there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phastasphuk 0 #16 August 5, 2007 QuoteTo the neptune speeds... I'm pretty sure that's not right. I mean, you throw anything out there, and it will add drag and slow you down, no matter how collapsed/distortioned/twisted the thing is. Don't forget that during high G-turns you are loading your canopy a lot more than when you just cruising around. Higher wingloading = Higher speeds. I have fooled my pro-track to believe I was in freefall while under canopy. Hop'n'pop from 2000 m, and logged freefall between 1300 and 900 meters when getting creative with some risers.chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #17 August 5, 2007 Quote I use the (quite successfull) method of putting my arms and legs together and just hanging there, I was also thinking that that technique may be a good place to start, although I don't have the practical experience to back the idea up. So this is just an opinion. Sometimes one will already be spinning before one can react. But other times the canopy may be flying with only a slight turn with line twists. Kicking, grabbing risers, and violently moving one's body around at that time may just make things worse. Even if the lines are fully locked in the twists and one isn't therefore making the risers uneven, all the movement can result in swinging under the canopy that can get the canopy to start turning and spiralling. Some canopies are directionally very sensitive and may tend to stay in a turn once one starts. That's in line with the reply that "You don't even need uneven risers. Do a hard riser turn after opening when breaks are still set..... The turn/dive might not stop by itself.... " The increased anhedral of a canopy, when line twists are pulling the lines inwards, is likely also making the canopy more directionally unstable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kiki32 1 #18 August 20, 2007 Today I had a pretty decent line twist and found that when I started to kick, I could only kick in the direction that I DIDNT want to go. The canopy then started to dive and spin a little and so I stopped kicking and it was ok. I found it hard to pull the risers apart so I tried something different by grabbing the risers with the opposite hands and it seemed to work great and got the twists out pretty fast.Poetry don't work on whores. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #19 August 20, 2007 QuoteI could only kick in the direction that I DIDNT want to go. What was preventing you from kicking the other direction?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kiki32 1 #20 August 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteI could only kick in the direction that I DIDNT want to go. What was preventing you from kicking the other direction? Probably the inertia from the twisting of the lines. If Im hanging still its not that easy to get the momentum.Poetry don't work on whores. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #21 August 21, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteI could only kick in the direction that I DIDNT want to go. What was preventing you from kicking the other direction? Probably the inertia from the twisting of the lines. If Im hanging still its not that easy to get the momentum. Its not a big deal to get rid of the line twist on a big'O student/square canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #22 August 21, 2007 when i see line twist developing, i just spin my body with same direction as canopy spin.. and try to catch up the rotation...Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 1 #23 August 22, 2007 Same here. Works pretty well actually.I forced myself to be more aware of the openings and I've even started to count between pitch and stand up. I'm pleased with my openings Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kiki32 1 #24 August 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI could only kick in the direction that I DIDNT want to go. What was preventing you from kicking the other direction? Probably the inertia from the twisting of the lines. If Im hanging still its not that easy to get the momentum. Its not a big deal to get rid of the line twist on a big'O student/square canopy. I was on a sport canopy, not a student one. Definately not as forgiving as the twist I had during AFF. Live and learn I guess.Poetry don't work on whores. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #25 August 23, 2007 QuoteI was on a sport canopy, not a student one. Definately not as forgiving as the twist I had during AFF. Live and learn I guess. What do you mean by not so forgiving? Was it flying strait or was it diving/spinning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
