Student reserve out of date

[Freefly300 0]

This post is not about the malfunction and subsequent reserve ride the student had. It’s about the reserve itself being out of date in a very busy student operation. The student performed his emergency procedures well is response to a main malfunction and landed safely. When the equipment was gathered back in the hanger it was discovered the reserve was out of date. The gear board showed the reserves next due date as sometime in October 2007. However, the packing card showed the reserve had expired by over a month. Instructors look at the board as a reference to determine which rig is appropriate for the student. Of course both instructor and student should look at the packing card before the jump, but in the rush to get a student on the load the dates on the board are trusted. There has been alleged evidence in the past that student gear at Skydive Orange in Virginia has allegedly been pencil packed and that it occurs with some frequency. One can only hope that they stop allegedly operating below the radar and raise the professional standard of the student operation, allegedly.

[BillyVance 34]

I know of one DZ that regularly pencilpacked their tandem reserves up to 2 years at a time. I don't know if they still do it. Somebody told me he was there the day they tried to pop a 2 year pack job in the packing room. It was a really hard pull.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[NWFlyer 2]

That's a pretty heavy allegation for what could have been as simple as incorrectly updating the gear board.

If the DZ were really going to be regularly pencil packing, don't you think they'd update the packing data card itself?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Feeblemind 1]

I agree, pretty serious statement made there. Maybe the rigger was slammed and fogot to fill out the packing card (not an excuse, it just might be a reality) I think the AFF-I's will now be checking the packing cards. Also, lets say this did not work out as well as it did and the out of date reserve was discovered during an incident investigation. Who holds the primary responsibility? The DZO, DZM, Rigger, or AFF-I's

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

Who holds the primary responsibility? The DZO, DZM, Rigger, or AFF-I's

Don't forget the pilot for letting an out of date reserve leave his aircraft.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

This post is not about the malfunction and subsequent reserve ride the student had. It’s about the reserve itself being out of date in a very busy student operation. The student performed his emergency procedures well is response to a main malfunction and landed safely. When the equipment was gathered back in the hanger it was discovered the reserve was out of date. The gear board showed the reserves next due date as sometime in October 2007. However, the packing card showed the reserve had expired by over a month. Instructors look at the board as a reference to determine which rig is appropriate for the student. Of course both instructor and student should look at the packing card before the jump, but in the rush to get a student on the load the dates on the board are trusted. There has been alleged evidence in the past that student gear at Skydive Orange in Virginia has allegedly been pencil packed and that it occurs with some frequency. One can only hope that they stop allegedly operating below the radar and raise the professional standard of the student operation, allegedly.

I'm not going to debate the issue of the out-of date reserve with you. I'm sure an error like that can happen, although I hadn't heard of this one. Can you provide the date on which this happened?

As far as these other allegations, I find it very hard to believe that the riggers responsible for maintaining the student gear there would pencil pack anything, and as stated before, why wasn't the reserve data card changed to match? Please enlighten us all on this past evidence that you state "allegedly" exists. I'd love to hear about it, as I am sure the riggers involved would love to know about it as well.

Do us all a favor, and put some validity behind your claims, rather than an anonymous poster that has only come out on the forums to post a landing incident at this DZ and now these allegations. If you have a problem with SOI, then cowboy up and be heard. If you're just gonna slam them anonymously, move on sunshine.

[billvon 2,434]

>There has been alleged evidence in the past that student gear at Skydive
> Orange in Virginia has allegedly been pencil packed and that it occurs with
>some frequency.

That might be true, but is a fairly serious accusation. Do you have any evidence at all of this? (The story you posted was a story about a rig NOT being pencil packed.)

[fcajump 153]

Quote

This post is not about the malfunction and subsequent reserve ride the student had. It’s about the reserve itself being out of date in a very busy student operation. The student performed his emergency procedures well is response to a main malfunction and landed safely. When the equipment was gathered back in the hanger it was discovered the reserve was out of date. The gear board showed the reserves next due date as sometime in October 2007. However, the packing card showed the reserve had expired by over a month. Instructors look at the board as a reference to determine which rig is appropriate for the student. Of course both instructor and student should look at the packing card before the jump, but in the rush to get a student on the load the dates on the board are trusted. There has been alleged evidence in the past that student gear at Skydive Orange in Virginia has allegedly been pencil packed and that it occurs with some frequency. One can only hope that they stop allegedly operating below the radar and raise the professional standard of the student operation, allegedly.

I would like to know what evidence you have of this. The riggers that I know at SOI take great care with their work. The management of this club based operation also works hard to ensure a busy operation continues running smoothly. In the time I have jumped there, I have consistantly seen a focus on proactive safety measures. They were the first dropzone I ever saw that started enforcing aircraft weight limits, seat-belt use, automated check-in systems to track repack dates (including personal rigs), and have now chosen to enforce manditory AAD use.

Anyone can mis-date the board, forget to update the pack data card, or write down the wrong rig number. From my experience at SOI, I would be much quicker to assume this is the case.

On the other hand, if ANY DZ or rigger has as its practice to pencil-pack or fake other documents, it should be pointed out with facts and the problem stamped out.

So if you have evidence, bring it forth. If not, I would ask you for a retraction of your statements.

Eitherway, I suggest that dropping names and allegations without including your own identification smells of frustration from someone with a grudge.

Jim Wine
D-15598

Disclaimer: While I am a rigger in the area, a former SOI tandem instructor and a member at SOI; I am not currently working for SOI or its affiliates, and I do not pack rigs for SOI. My opinons are my own.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[weegegirl 2]

Could you please "pencil" your name in so I can tell just how full of shit you are? Thanks.

[freefalljenn 0]

We should attribute such credibility to this story seeing as how the poster registered a mere 4 days ago and has only 2 posts. Oh yeah, and they posted so much information in their profile. Poster, I think you need to investigate matters more thoroughly before you make such serious allegations and take to slamming a DZ. I went though the student program at Skydive Orange, and felt extremely safe with the gear that I was jumping.

jenn
Tunnel Junkie Since November 2005! ;o)~
TPM #46
Paraclete XP TPM Delegate

[ostrich 0]

I'm the instructor who found it. I'm the instructor that was shocked at the packing data card and asked around till I found out what happened.

The rigger in question had logged it but not filled out the card.

End of story. No pencil pack. Complete lack of signature is what alerted me. This rigger takes care of 20+ rigs for us and its the first time I've run into this in my 6 years on staff at SOI.


Move along now.

--I'm also out at Skydive Orange every single weekend. My DZ.com handle is the name I'm known by everyone there, so feel free to find me if you have any concerns. I'm not hiding behind an anonymous name.

[klingeme 0]

I don't like the fact that a student who is being taught how they should behave before any skydive (with a complete rig inspection including the reserve card) missed a data card with a clearly expired reserve.

You should never teach a student to "rush" anything.

I'd be lying if I said I never "rushed" to get on a load, or did not do a complete gear inpection on my own rig, but when teaching a "student" how to behave, this should NEVER happen. What are you telling the student..."These things are only important when you're not in a hurry, and the plane can't wait for us to do this right."?

Mark Klingelhoefer

[jgraves 0]

I'm currently in the student program at Skydive Orange, and I have been taught to check the data card and cross reference the signature with the seal on the reserve pin. I have also been told to count back the days since the last pack and not just to go by the month listed. I do this every time, even if I'm rushed to get on a load. It only takes about five seconds. I have never been given the impression that anything should be skipped in the event that time is short.

At some point a student must make the step and be accountable for his or her own safety - this is part of the training. If a student failed to check the data card, please do not impugn the instruction at SOI.

[ostrich 0]

Hi Mark! Good to meet you.

Jump to conclusions much?

This student was on her 24th jump. A self-supervised jump.

Of course she gets 2 gear checks before she gets on the plane, and 2 before she leaves the plane from the person supervising her, but not the packing data card.

Did she learn a lesson? Yes she did.

[wildcard451 0]

Thanks ostrich. I figured someone would be able to clear this troll's accusations up fairly quickly.

That being said, see you all out there this weekend if I can drag my butt out of here.

[klingeme 0]

Quote

Hi Mark! Good to meet you.

Jump to conclusions much?

This student was on her 24th jump. A self-supervised jump.

Of course she gets 2 gear checks before she gets on the plane, and 2 before she leaves the plane from the person supervising her, but not the packing data card.

Did she learn a lesson? Yes she did.

Sorry to jump to conclusions. When she was refered to as a student, I assumed AFF LV 1-7, not a coach jump, however, rental gear should be checked by a staff member to insure it is in date before giving it to the customer, Student or not.

As long as the lesson was learned (both by her and the DZ Staff) no harm, no foul.

BTW, I was never accusing anyone of pencil packing or anything like that, I was just pointing out the importance of a full rig inspection, including the packing data card.

Mark Klingelhoefer

[riggerrob 558]

A lot of schools do not tell students about packing data cards, simply because students lose cards too often.
Under Canadian law, a packing data card does not even have to be in the rig, just in a filing cabinet in the office.

Oh! And the original poster should shut up!

[V111pilot 1]

FYI- A "pencil pack" is when the packing card IS filled out, but the rig wasn't packed... Having said that, Ostrich is correct that the card didn't get updated, and the board did. Orange is possible the most safety conscious DZ I have jumped at.
If you are gonna make BS accusations, at least cowboy up with whom you are and how you have come to such an conclusion.

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

If you are gonna make BS accusations, at least cowboy up with whom you are.

I'd say he's a chicken. The only two posts he's made were to start this thread and the hard landing incident thread.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[d123 1]

Interesting subject. I was not aware that the reserve card is an important thing.

As a student, I was never told to check the reserve card. In fact I wasn't even aware of the reserve card existence until I've bought my own shit.

Wouldn't checking the reserve card, 4 times a day every day, destroy the card in less than a year?

My reserve card is already pretty fragile. Can I photocopy it and show only the copy when I visit a new DZ? What happens if I lose the card?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[klingeme 0]

Quote

Interesting subject. I was not aware that the reserve card is an important thing.

As a student, I was never told to check the reserve card. In fact I wasn't even aware of the reserve card existence until I've bought my own shit.

Wouldn't checking the reserve card, 4 times a day every day, destroy the card in less than a year?

My reserve card is already pretty fragile. Can I photocopy it and show only the copy when I visit a new DZ? What happens if I lose the card?

If it is your personal gear, you have a good idea when the rig was last packed, but when I went through AFF I was told that checking the reserve data card on any rental gear (student gear included) should be part of my inspection before the first jump of the day. There is no need to check it before every jump, because if it was in date before your first jump of the day, it is still in date for your 10th jump that same day.

The cards themselves are very durable, but if you are not sure if a rig is in date, you should check to make sure you are "legal".

Mark Klingelhoefer

[NickDG 23]

>>As a student, I was never told to check the reserve card.
That's a bit scary and makes one wonder what else they didn't tell you.

Tyvek is the best choice for a reserve packing data card as it's almost indestructible. But they aren't something a "cheap" rigger will provide you with.

You can buy them yourself from ParaGear. Look at the last entry on the bottom of the this page: http://www.para-gear.com/templates/parachutes.asp?group=29&level=1

NickD BASE 194

[d123 1]

Quote

wouldn't checking the reserve card, 4 times a day every day, destroy the card in less than a year?

Well I've meant this for student gear.
Thanks for the info guys.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!