sinker 0 #76 June 2, 2003 ***Ah well, different people have different standards. I would consider lying to my wife less of a moral failing than killing ten thousand people - and then having people find out that the stated reason I did it did not exist. *** point taken. but again, this is assuming that bush is lying and will lie about WMDs. To those opposed to the war, if any are found, it'll be easy to say we planted them. To those for the war, it'll be easy to say that if there were none found, that they were moved just prior to the war or destroyed or whatever. Bottom line is that if Bush did and is lying about it, like Chris, I'll be one of the first to stand in line denouncing him. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #77 June 2, 2003 QuoteInfidelity is infidelity. Perjury is perjury. Desertion IS desertion, I don't care WHO did it I could not agree with you more. I am doing some searches on the internet regarding the claim of Bush going AWOL and deserting. Here is one: http://www.awolbush.com Though it is definitely biased, it certainly raises some questions. and from: http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/10/25_Deserter.html QuoteFrom May to November 1972, George W. Bush was living in Alabama working on the US senate campaign of Winton Blount and was required to attend drills with the Air National Guard unit in Montgomery, Alabama. There is no record that he attended any drills whatsoever. Additionally, General William Turnipseed (r) who was commander of the unit at that time has stated in interviews that he never saw Bush report for duty. On September 5, 1972, Bush had requested permission to perform duty for September, October, and November at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery. Permission was granted, and Bush was ordered to report to General William Turnipseed. In interviews, Turnipseed, and his administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, have stated that they had no memory of Bush ever reporting. Seven months later, at Ellington Air Force Base in Texas, Bush's two superior officers were unable to complete his annual evaluation covering the year from May 1, 1972 to April 30, 1973 because, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report." Both superior officers, who are now dead, and also Ellington's top personnel officer at the time, mistakenly concluded that Bush served his final year of service in Alabama. Bush returned to live in Texas after the senatorial election in November, 1972, so this is obviously not true. According to the records available from the National Guard, the period between May 1972 and May 1973 remains unaccounted for. George W. Bush himself has refused to answer questions about this period in his life, other than to state that he fulfilled all of his National Guard commitments. If this were true, why is there no record of him fulfilling these commitments at either of his posts in Texas or Alabama? Why is there not one commanding officer that can come forward and state unequivocally that Bush reported for duty? It would seem that there are lots of questions and nobody is answering. I would have to say that it certainly has not been proven, but it would seem that it is not all above board. (Edited because my spelling sucks) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #78 June 2, 2003 Quote>A lie is a lie, period. Oh, I agree 100%. He was wrong. I've lied before and regretted it later. Like I said, if I get to the end of my life and that's my greatest regret, I will consider myself to be pretty lucky. >I expect the President of the United States, no matter what his/her >party affiliation, to maintain certain standards. So would desertion be OK, but lying not be OK? Bush has told a handful of lies as well, which doesn't suprise me; it's what politicians _do_. They make campaign promises and don't follow through. For the LAST TIME. If he/she/it lies under oath, they are committing a crime. And committing a crime IMO is beneath the standards of any civilized human being, let alone the leader of our country. I don't care who it is in office, the standards still apply. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #79 June 2, 2003 QuoteThe act of lieing is not against the law. Lieing under oath is. This is the issue. I think that is half the issue. I'd like to think that the president would tell the truth unless there were a real security reason why he can't. But I'm not naive enough to think that is the case. I also think that lying to the American people repeatedly on national television in an effort to take us into a war would be pretty serious, even if not under oath. QuotePersonally, I think it is way too early to conclude that there were no WMD in Iraq. I'm not saying there weren't any, or that we might not someday find them. However, I am calling into question the validity of pitching that as the reason we went to war. If we had the hard facts they say we did, I think we would have found things by now. If we went on suspicions, we should have been told they were nothing more than guesses. The snake-oil salesmanship of politicians belonging to both parties irritates me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #80 June 2, 2003 Thanks for the post. I will most definately look into this. I'm surprised though to have never heard anything about this in the past. Even from the left. It didn't come out in the elections that I recall or anything else. I don't remember being comatose during that time either, although anything is possible. You also wrote: I would have to say that it certainly has not been proven, but it would seem that it is not all above board. to which I reply: why would it seem that everying is not above board? There may be an explanation for it that is totally above board. Maybe not. I'm troubled by the notion in our society (as justifiable as it is) to presume guilt before presuming innocence. Again, thanks for the links. I will be giving this my attention... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #81 June 2, 2003 QuoteThe snake-oil salesmanship of politicians belonging to both parties irritates me. I couldn't agree with you more. That is why, for many years, I didn't vote. I had a hard time voting for who I considered the "lesser of two evils." I still do have a hard time with it. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #82 June 2, 2003 QuotePersonally, I think it is way too early to conclude that there were no WMD in Iraq. When Bush's cause went from "Defeating Terrorism" to "Operation Iraqi Freedom," that showed about the biggest sign of his lies or ignorance of these invisibile WMD. Changing his mind about the reason for being there was a great way of diverting the attention of Americans away from him being wrong and careless. Seriously, people out there actually like Bush? What has he done of value? And Clinton committing perjury, first of all...we all know that oral isn't sex. Secondly, I find it admirable that he would lie to appease millions of busy-bodies who think that the president's sex-life is even halfway interesting. Saying, "No, I didn't do anything," and getting back to work seems like a better idea than wasting time and energy to find the contents of the stain on Monica's dress. Oh...and you know that Bush had many executions in his state with questionable evidence. He didn't start pardoning people until it was convenient for his campaign.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,129 #83 June 2, 2003 OK, I'm confused. I posted the same link, in the same thread. Dang -- the invisible woman! Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #84 June 2, 2003 Quoteto which I reply: why would it seem that everying is not above board? Because it would seem that the questions have ben asked, yet no answers are given. If it is all above board, then why not answer? Why is it that he is one of the few top politicians who has not released his military documents? Why have all these documents dissappeared? Funny enough, it is stated that they guy in charge of the Texas National Guard at the time of Bush Jr.'s documents disapearing is now heading the National Guard nation wide. Like I said, many questions and nobody willing to answer certainly makes me doubt. And yes, Clinton was wrong to lie about getting head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #85 June 2, 2003 yes you did. I just looked up again and saw it. very sorry Wendy, I didn't mean to ignore you I promise not to do it again forgive me? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #86 June 2, 2003 >Seriously, people out there actually like Bush? What has he done of value? He gave us two wars. Wartime presidents are often popular; there are a lot of people who _like_ war, and a lot more who don't like the act itself but like it when the US demonstrates its military strength. You need only look back through these forums to find posts about how cool this bomb is, or how excellent this video of a personnel carrier getting blown up is. A lot of those same people equate peace to wimpiness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,129 #87 June 2, 2003 QuoteOK, I'm confused. I posted the same link, in the same thread. Dang -- the invisible woman! And you beat my to it as well, by quite a large margin as well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #88 June 2, 2003 /smacks forhead w/ hand/ JEESH!!! And you thing I'm clueless for admiring SOME of the things Bush has done? Oral isn't sex? Perjury is admirable? OMG... When will YOU be running for office? -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #89 June 2, 2003 you make very good points and I agree, the questions should be answered. Again, this is the first I've ever heard of it. -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Katzeye 0 #90 June 2, 2003 the SPIN on that resume makes my head HURT! LA* Is a chicken omelette redundant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumprunner 0 #91 June 2, 2003 Quote But hey, maybe you are right. How about explaining to your kids that "Oral Sex" is not sex. Explain how when you took office, your accountant "Committed Suicide". How about that little "White Water" thing. And lets not forget who bought the Clinton Presidency, China.... TOO DAMN EASY TO CRITICIZE. edited for personal attack. Now, I dont think we should be criticizing the great all time genius who "invented the internet". And as far as oral sex...well any reasonable person can tell you that it isnt really sex, but more of a way of, um, well, umm...relieving yourself! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #92 June 2, 2003 QuoteQuotePersonally I have less problems with some one getting head than some one driving drunk, regardless of political views. It's shit like that that keeps many qualified people from public service. There's a difference from someone married getting head while in office and something someone did more than 25 years ago (1976). Personally, it would be hard to name very many people who haven't driven legally drunk, but easy to name one's who haven't gotten caught. Also, W has not drank since 1986. How long can you hold a mistake against someone? Clinton's draft deferment is still held against him, and it WAS legal. Drunken driving is not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #93 June 2, 2003 QuoteQuote>A lie is a lie, period. Oh, I agree 100%. He was wrong. I've lied before and regretted it later. Like I said, if I get to the end of my life and that's my greatest regret, I will consider myself to be pretty lucky. >I expect the President of the United States, no matter what his/her >party affiliation, to maintain certain standards. So would desertion be OK, but lying not be OK? Bush has told a handful of lies as well, which doesn't suprise me; it's what politicians _do_. They make campaign promises and don't follow through. For the LAST TIME. If he/she/it lies under oath, they are committing a crime. And committing a crime IMO is beneath the standards of any civilized human being, let alone the leader of our country. I don't care who it is in office, the standards still apply. Chris During my lifetime, the following Presidents are known to have lied to the American people and/or Congress. Several of them are known to have had extra-marital sex too: Truman Eisenhower Kennedy Johnson Nixon Reagan Bush#1 Clinton I don't know about Ford and Carter. The way things are looking at the moment, Bush#2 seems on very shaky ground concerning WMD intelligence and being honest with the people.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #94 June 2, 2003 QuoteQuote But hey, maybe you are right. How about explaining to your kids that "Oral Sex" is not sex. Explain how when you took office, your accountant "Committed Suicide". How about that little "White Water" thing. And lets not forget who bought the Clinton Presidency, China.... TOO DAMN EASY TO CRITICIZE. edited for personal attack. Now, I dont think we should be criticizing the great all time genius who "invented the internet". And as far as oral sex...well any reasonable person can tell you that it isnt really sex, but more of a way of, um, well, umm...relieving yourself! According to Snopes, Al Gore never made a statement claiming to have invented the Internet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumprunner 0 #95 June 2, 2003 Quote>Democrat: Lots of people get blowjobs in their offices. I dont get blowjobs in my office. Any volunteers??? PS - Sangiro....please dont ban me, I couldnt resist it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,635 #96 June 2, 2003 Quote But hey, maybe you are right. How about explaining to your kids that "Oral Sex" is not sex. Explain how when you took office, your accountant "Committed Suicide". How about that little "White Water" thing. And lets not forget who bought the Clinton Presidency, China.... TOO DAMN EASY TO CRITICIZE. edited for personal attack. Whitewater? Afer a $50M investigation (paid for by you and me, Patrick) the special counsel came up with nothing.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #97 June 2, 2003 Holy shit. Work for a bit and look what happens to the thread - it's on FIRE!!!! The Desertion Issue: THE ANVIL Perspective I think that had El Jefe Clintonista/Gore been in office for eight years prior to someone who supposedly deserted the Air National Guard during the Vietnam era would have turned the stomachs of anyone in the military or who had ever been in the military. However, since a draft dodger had been president for eight years and Gore's Vietnam service was a joke, many people had been desensitized to the issue. Add to that the fact that most military officers (over 85%) and I'd say about 70% (on the low side) of the enlisted personnel are Republicans and that Bush's father was a WWII Vet, and you kind of get a feel for why his supposed AWOL/desertion held so little sway over that voting block. By extolling Clinton's draft dodging on principle in the previous two elections, democrats hurt themselves unintentionally when trying to play that card against Bush - at least Bush made a semblance of joining the Air Guard. Neither act could be considered truly courageous/honorable, but between the two I'd have to give Bush the edge on that front. Did Bush go awol? Perhaps. Definitely plausible and some strong evidence has been presented. Unfortunately, those presenting it were strongly defending Clinton's draft dodging and Al Gore's 'stint' in 'Nam which caused the hypocrisy factor to render their attacks ineffective. Since taking office, Bush has acted like a Commander in Chief. He says something, then does it foreign policy wise, like it or not. That too sits well with the military mindset. Anyway, that's why I think the military likes Bush so much despite his possible awol/desertion. Beers to all Vinny the Anvil Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #98 June 2, 2003 QuoteSeriously, people out there actually like Bush? Yeah, about 70% of Americans. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,129 #99 June 2, 2003 QuoteYeah, about 70% of Americans. I'd have said that about 70% of Americans, when given the right question, can say they approve of something he's doing. (i.e. "his handling of terrorism" or "his handling of foreign affairs" etc. -- he doesn't do nearly as well on "his handling of the economy") Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #100 June 2, 2003 you still haven't said if you forgive me for ignoring you... you're not the invisible woman... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
