George Bush Resume

[misskriss 0]

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how much damage is it going to do the 13 year old girl to give birth then put the baby up for adoption? This versus the killing of an innocent life?

Sorry....my daughter is an innocent life......and if she were to get pregnant.....God forbid raped, etc.. and she did not want to carry the baby for a variety of reasons then no government should have the right to make her.

[Jib 0]

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I'd have to disagree here. The whole point for some people of the Cletus-the-fetus legislation was to start the slippery slope.

If there's a slippery slope here, how come there's not one when it comes to "sensible" legislation about guns and other violatile issues?

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[wmw999 2,177]

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If it begins at conception, most of these questions cease to exist

Absolutely.

But I think we disagree on its beginning at conception. The damage to life that hasn't had any meaningful moments of its own is hard to describe as meaningful (i.e. to a baby that is never born, and never made it past the size of a raisin).

If the life only exists as part of the parent, then when does it become separate? You can say it's when conception takes place, but I don't really think so.

And as far as the damage to the 13-year-old girl? Well, with as many drugs as were in her system, the baby would very probably have been compromised. And once you've determined that, it's way too late.

I wish adoption were more common, I really do. Too many girls are keeping their babies with no real idea of how hard it is to be a good parent. There is a huge social stigma to giving away a baby.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,177]

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If there's a slippery slope here, how come there's not one when it comes to "sensible" legislation about guns and other violatile issues?

Touche. Excellent question, and no, I can't answer it

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sinker 0]

>>Is it better to have a drug-involved 13-year-old carry a >>child to (whatever) than to have her have an abortion?

Isn't it better for the 13 yr old to not be involved in drugs? We shouldn't want to fix a problem w/ another problem. And if what the 13 yr old is pregnant w/ is a child, killing it will not help matters

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

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You know exactly what I mean.... you can die from any type of surgery but try and take out your own
appendix and see how far you get.

Look, if abortion were not legal and some woman attempted to abort the child herself, well sorry that's pretty dumb of her. If she is so pro choice, well, she can make that choice too.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[sinker 0]

>>Sorry....my daughter is an innocent life......and if she were to get pregnant.....God forbid raped, etc.. and
she did not want to carry the baby for a variety of reasons then no government should have the right to
make her.

So, her aborting would make more victims, her and the baby. If the government said abortion was illegal, it wouldn't be forcing her to have the baby. It would be saying that killing the baby through abortion was a crime.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[TheAnvil 0]

This thread is getting really large. I hope nobody has replied to anything I wrote before here. I'm going to take another twenty minutes and veg here before going to buy a sledge hammer for my computer/satellite simulator.

Powell is one of my favorite people on the national stage right now. Truly a great man.


WRT the WMD, I am going to be perturbed if it turns out that the WMD scenario was cooked. I don't think it was and it would greatly shake my faith in all levels of American leadership if that turns out to be the case. We shall see, but I'm on the doubting Thomas side there.

The NK situation is an interesting foreign policy paradigm. They have nukes and an extremely large & well equipped army. Everytime they negotiate with us - almost - we learn they've done so in bad faith to extort more $$/food/etc. Additionally, the sell drugs for $$ for their cash-strapped economy.

The history is as interesting as the paradigm. Our intervention there was based on Kennan's Containment doctrine, which is now moot point in many respects.

Nobody knows what the NKs want - even them I'd wager. That whole peninsula is a dangerous place - and not just due to the stench of kimchee. (As a humorous side note, I had to can-ex every ounce of clothing I wore to the kimchee market in Seoul despite several times through the laundry - even the shoes! Tastes damn good, though.)

I think the way to proceed there is VERY cautious engagement. The Southern economy and infrastructure are a testament to the strength of capitalism and the South Korean work ethic. NK can't let its citizens visit SK en masse because they'd never return. Hell - they even go over the border into China where they sure as hell aren't welcome. The North has no tourist industry and no commercially produced products, so how the hell CAN they be engaged economically? On this front, dude, I am a stumped little short man.

Rush, Ann Coulter, Walt Williams, Rush's brother David, and all sorts of conservative commentators will be in the mix of the '04 election. Looking forward to reading their stuff. I DO think the internet and free access to non-liberal biased media has been one of the dominating factors in electing republicans nationwide. My two cents.

Now to read further into this monstrous thread.

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Yes, there are many of us who like Bush, even though his second tax cut pissed me off - good intention, but HORRRRRRRIIIBLE structure.

As far as what he's done of value, look at the first tax cut, ending preferential hiring of union workers over lower bidding non-unionized small business for government contracts (saving $$), 9/11 response was great, got rid of Saddam Hussein (we hope), invoked Taft-Hartley to force the 6 figure making whiners from ILWU back to work on the West Coast (horrid thing for the economy, that strike), .....I could go on.....

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Muenkel 0]

Once again I am in full agreement with Michael. Michael you presented the pro-life issue perfectly. At the risk of losing some of the friends I have made here, because this issue really pisses people off, I fully support the complete restriction of abortions under all circumstances. And why? Because I do believe it has never been proven that life does not begin at conception and I do believe the moment that life begins, their is a soul that does not belong to any of us. And like Michael said, better to err on the side of caution, because if there is a God, He's going to have the final answer.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[TheAnvil 0]

Wendy I don't think I've ever seen you lie here in any forum, nor have I found your posts bereft of intellect, though I often disagree with them.

Here is the thing - Anvil perspective. It's your right to support whatever you want. When you induce others to support your point of view and do NOT let them know what you support because you know their knowledge of such would make them less likely to vote for you, THAT makes you a coward.

The following phrases wouldn't win you any elections, but are nice descriptions of some of the favorite issues of the left:

- I support the right of a woman to induce labor at 8.5 months and have the doctor suck the fetus' brains out from the base of its neck as soon as the head exits the mother.

- I want to raise your taxes.

- I support the right of state funded universities to reject your daughters/sons in favor of less qualified applicants because of thier/his/her race.

Instead of the above, we hear the following:

- Woman's right to choose!

- Tax cuts for the rich! Republicans want tax cuts for the rich!

- I support affirmative action! Republicans are racists!

I have a horrid confession to make - I used to be a leftie. It was a black friend of mine who turned me into a republican. He was infuriated that I was an affirmative action supporter and when I argued with him he kicked my ass thoroughly on every point. As I was just starting as a tutor for the Office of Minority Education and Development (physics, calc, etc) when this occurred it didn't take me long to see how right he was about double standards for admission and their ill effects. He told me I should look into other things - like gun control, abortion, taxes, etc. I did my research and haven't looked back - he was right. I even used to support abortion until I saw this video: www.silentscream.org

The left, of course, put out a response, but I was not impressed: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ABORTION/silentscream.htm I found their counterpoint nicely worded, sometimes factual, but overall uninspiring. The counterpoint nit-picks at minutia and avoids the major issue at hand. Form your own opinion, as you've already seem to have done.

I've maintained my own views - they do oscillate from time to time - but there are certain things I will never support and late term abortions are one of them. If you choose to do so, fine.

The difference between us is I can tell people straight up what I feel about an issue. I can show a video of what I'm against and then explain why I'm against it. You can't.

This thread is long. And it seems to be going towards the abortion/non-abortion route. Dammit. Shouldn't have brought it up. Oh well.

Beers,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Take a look at the witholding rates and then the US$7700 single tax deduction for the 1040EZ filers and you'll find they aren't paying income taxes - according to my office-mate. He could be wrong - he DOES answer to 'Dumb Ass'. I read that stat somewhere else as well - perhaps Boortz - and DA claims to have seen this also.

I like the Office of Faith Based Initiatives, but share your concern in the abstract. What many religious organizations already have in place is an EXCELLENT infrastructure and proven track record, which makes me support that. As long as religions aren't excluded from funding because of denominations, I don't see how said funding could be construed as the establishment of a State religion. I do see your point in the abstract, but disagree.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[skybytch 259]

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I fully support the complete restriction of abortions under all circumstances.

I heartily disagree with you. We'll have to discuss it over a beer or two someday though because I'm not going to get into my reasons why here.

Suffice it to say that if you haven't been there, you'll never, ever understand.

[skybytch 259]

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I wish adoption were more common, I really do. Too many girls are keeping their babies with no real idea of how hard it is to be a good parent.

So very true. If I'd known at 18 what I know now...

Not to say that raising my son wasn't a good thing, but I'd have done a far better job had I had a few years to grow up and have a better idea of who I was and what I was getting into first.

[sinker 0]

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But I think we disagree on its beginning at conception. The damage to life that hasn't had any meaningful
moments of its own is hard to describe as meaningful (i.e. to a baby that is never born, and never made it
past the size of a raisin).

The absence of "meaningful moments" defines humanity? How can such an obtuse term account for any defining of what it means to be human? If I haven't had a meaningful moment in the past week / month / year, am I not human any more? What if, as in the case of Cletus the Fetus, I am temporarily prevented from having any "meaningful moments?" And further, I would say that simply existing is a meaningful moment, or rather, many such moments.

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If the life only exists as part of the parent, then when does it become separate? You can say it's when
conception takes place, but I don't really think so.

But the life of a fetus is, in a sense, apart from the parent. It develops it's own blood, even a different type. And, a fetus can live apart from the mother earlier and earlier.

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And as far as the damage to the 13-year-old girl? Well, with as many drugs as were in her system, the baby
would very probably have been compromised. And once you've determined that, it's way too late.

Not necessarily. True, it is a probability. And it is a tragedy, things like crack babies and fetal alcohol syndrome. But these lives are not w/o value either! We automatically assume that b/c a life has been damaged by the poor choices of another, that it ipso facto doesn't have value. Look at the kids in the Special Olympics. They are a pure joy to work with and be with.

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I wish adoption were more common, I really do. Too many girls are keeping their babies with no real idea of
how hard it is to be a good parent. There is a huge social stigma to giving away a baby.

I SO agree with you on this one. My wife and I would gladly adopt as many as we could.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[JayhawkJumper 0]

If you take this resume at face value, let me tell you about a little chemical called Hydrogen Hydroxide that kills thousands every year and should be banned from use worldwide.

[jumprunner 0]

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If you take this resume at face value, let me tell you about a little chemical called Hydrogen Hydroxide that kills thousands every year and should be banned from use worldwide.

As much as I hate chemistry (and I have a Chemistry degree believe it or not) I have to step in on this one. Hydrogen Hydroxide indicates a base compound with an ionic bond, water doesnt share that property since it is neutral. Ionic bonds are much longer and weaker than covalent bonds which comprise H2O, so the correct term is dihydrogen oxide.

Man I hate Chemistry. Spent a year and a half going broke trying to work my way into something that had a future. Sure hope noone else makes that mistake.

[Muenkel 0]

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I heartily disagree with you. We'll have to discuss it over a beer or two someday though because I'm not going to get into my reasons why here.

I look forward to sharing some beers with you and discuss all manner of things because I consider you my friend and truly respect you. You are a classy lady and believe me when I tell you, that I do not judge anyone who disagrees with me on this subject.
I can't wait to give you a big hug, because you have no idea the positive impact you have had on me.
Blue skies and a kick ass sabatical,
Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[jfields 0]

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The following phrases wouldn't win you any elections, but are nice descriptions of some of the favorite issues of the left:

- I support the right of a woman to induce labor at 8.5 months and have the doctor suck the fetus' brains out from the base of its neck as soon as the head exits the mother.

- I want to raise your taxes.

.....

Instead of the above, we hear the following:

- Woman's right to choose!

- Tax cuts for the rich! Republicans want tax cuts for the rich!

Two can play that...

Instead of:

"We think that raped women should have to suffer through the birth of their attacker's child then be victimized further for the rest of their life by their responsibility to raise that child they didn't want in the first place"

we hear "Pro-Life".

Instead of:

"We want to keep the money we make, no matter what, and if that means short-sighted cutting of essential services and the degradation of the quality of life for many low-income Americans, we don't care because the fuckers must be stupid and lazy not to already be rich"

we hear "economy-stimulating tax cuts".

[misskriss 0]

ONe more comment from me and them i'm out..this topic is too emotional. You..as a man will never ever understand what it is to carry a child, to give birth, or to be raped for that matter. You don't know what it's like to be abused by someone who is much stronger than you. I do not need a man telling me what is right for me, my body , or my daughters.

[sinker 0]

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Instead of:

"We think that raped women should have to suffer through the birth of their attacker's child then be
victimized further for the rest of their life by their responsibility to raise that child they didn't want in the
first place"

we hear "Pro-Life".

The raped woman would be forced to raise the child??? Ever heard of adoption? Ever heard of the shortage of babies for adoption? There are so many families who was love to adopt and care for a baby, even the product of rape. And again, if the fetus is a human being, the fact that he/she/it was the product of a crime does not mean it's ok to kill it. The baby did nothing wrong. The mother did nothing wrong. Yes, the mother should carry it to term. Yes, that will be difficult for the mother, but NOT NECESSARILY. I know women who have been raped and carried to term. One put the baby up for adoption, the other kept it AND through the process of keeping the child, came to an incredible healing of her rape. True, that won't be the case for everyone. But still, when a woman aborts the product of rape, who is a child, she victimizes herself as well as her innocent child.

And to Bytch's comment that if you haven't been there you don't know and don't have anything intelligent to say... sorry, doesn't fly. Does that mean I need to be or must have been a drug addict in order to help someone recover? Don't think so. Do doctors need personal experience w/ the diseases they diagnose and cure? Hardly....

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[skydyvr 0]

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Democrat: Lots of people get blowjobs in their offices.

Clinton's Oval Office sexual exploits brought worldwide shame to the presidency, and were an eloquent abstract of his entire moral character.

. . =(_8^(1)

[jfields 0]

So if she is forced to deliver the baby, your answer is "well, she can just give it away"? That is condescending in the extreme to women. Feelings, duty and love, however bittersweet, mean nothing? There is no way a man has a right to tell a women what she has to do with her body. How would you feel if you were unwillingly dragged off the street, sent to the hospital and given a procedure that gave you x chance of being sterile, y chance of being castrated and z chance of death. Fun, huh?

Speaking of that, you do realize that if implemented, your "pro-life" stance will result in the murder of rape victims? Yes, murder. Any pregnancy is a major health risk. Despite our best medical technology, women still die in childbirth. If you completely take away the mother's choice, as well as the doctor's responsibility to the mother, you are condemning a certain percentage of women to death, by the very fetuses you insist they carry.

"Pro-life"? I don't think so. All that stance does is rob women of their soveriegnty over their own bodies. If women don't have that fundamental right, you are reducing them to the level of mindless fetal incubators. I hope no woman in my life ever gets treated like that.

I do not know any woman that takes the issue of abortion lightly. They generally understand it at a much deeper level than men do. We do not have another life coming forth from our bodies. Yes, a life. I'm not debating that a third trimester fetus is alive. But the mother is to, and her rights are not meaningless. You feel no pain of childbirth, no pain of raising a baby you didn't want, alternatively no pain of giving away your child, and you sure have no risk of your own death from telling a woman she has to deliver the baby.

[sinker 0]

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ONe more comment from me and them i'm out..this topic is too emotional. You..as a man will never ever
understand what it is to carry a child, to give birth, or to be raped for that matter. You don't know what
it's like to be abused by someone who is much stronger than you. I do not need a man telling me what is
right for me, my body , or my daughters.

I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from. And I'm sorry if I've said anything that was insensitive. It certainly wasn't my intention. What I do know is that to a degree, you are wrong. I DO KNOW what it is like to be abused by someone much stronger than me. I DO KNOW that incredible sense of powerlessness. I do NOT know what it is like to carry or give birth to a child. But I've been with my wife every step of the way for the birth of both of our kids as well as the child due in 5-6 weeks. I know what that is like, having lived with it day in and day out. But you know, just b/c I can't get pregnant and have kids doesn't for one second disqualify me from being able to say anything about this. It isn't just men who are pro-life and women who are pro-choice. To think so is myopic.

Again, I'm very sorry that this has been an emotional topic for you. I wish you well...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[skybytch 259]

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And to Bytch's comment that if you haven't been there you don't know and don't have anything intelligent to say... sorry, doesn't fly.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I live with the consequences of my decisions every day. I'm glad you haven't been faced with the same choices I was; in a perfect world no one would be.

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Does that mean I need to be or must have been a drug addict in order to help someone recover? Don't think so. Do doctors need personal experience w/ the diseases they diagnose and cure? Hardly....

Having dealt with these type decisions more than once in my life, having spent many hours in conversation with counselors and doctors who had no personal experience in the subject, and having lived with the consequences of two out of the three available options... I stand by my statement that if you haven't lived it, you will never, ever understand. It's that personal and it's that life changing.