BlueEyedMonster 0 #51 July 17, 2003 Quote That's like saying "I don't want to take any chances of dying when I jump." Nope. "Statistically speaking" If I was killed skydiving, it wouldn't give a shit because I would be dead, and it would only effect my family and friends. Therefore the consequences of a failed skydive are minimal. Now if the Bush was to be killed, the negative impact would be felt by the entire world. The consequences of a failed attempt to protect the president would be catastrophic. QuoteWhat would have to happen for Powell to be top dog? The following people would have to be killed along with bush on AF1: The Vice President Richard Cheney Speaker of the House John Dennis Hastert President pro tempore of the Senate Ted Stevens Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #52 July 17, 2003 I think that when my right/freedom as an individual to earn an honest living, regardless of my occupation, is taken away on what will have been 3 diffrent occasions for at least 5 days at a time, due to a "pleasure" trip, then I think someone needs to say something. Maybe I'm talking to the wrong crowd. Maybe not enough people here make their total income from skydiving. I do what I do b/c I love to do it. I understand that sometimes the weather doesn't cooperate and that is a risk that I take. But to be told that I can't jump for a whole week at my DZ, where I live, b/c some guy (this pres or any other pres) wants to fish a few times a year absolutely blows me away. How many more times is this going to happen? How about the charter boat companies and fisherman that are based out of walker's point? They are getting hosed as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #53 July 17, 2003 It's an example of how the Presidents all did it. Just to counter the lefties complaints that it's recent, or only because of 9/11 or only Pres Bush's fault. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #54 July 17, 2003 QuoteI think that when my right/freedom as an individual to earn an honest living Unfortunately this is not a right. This is just a "want" In fact, most states are employment at will states and have employment laws that specifically state that you do not have a right to be employed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #55 July 17, 2003 >Therefore the consequences of a failed skydive are minimal. I'm not talking about consequences but probabilities. Nothing we can do will guarantee the president's safety; we could shut down the entire US ATC system when he flies "for safety" and still not guarantee his safety. That would put far more than one DZ out of business, so we accept the (slightly) reduced margin of safety because it's convenient to do so. The 30nm limit has some drawbacks; if it were to be reduced to 20 miles it would affect 56% less area. If that increases his risk by .0001% (i.e. the risk that a terrorist manages to steal an armed F-15 without anyone noticing, and manages to fly it, time it just right, get a weapons lock on Air Force 1 and fire an air to air missile just outside the restricted area) it may be worth it to prevent economic losses. Of course there's not a chance in hell they will consider that, so the point is probably moot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #56 July 17, 2003 Quote>I'm not talking about consequences but probabilities. But you are talking about consequences.. if you had a 1/100 chance of something with not a bad consequence and a 1/10,000 chance with catastrophic consequences, which one gets the planning priority? Me personally, I would plan for the catastrophic one. And It won't be as difficult as stealing a fully armed f-15 to get a shot off.... I don't want to see the black helicopters so I'm not going into detail, but I can conceive of several ways to use civilian aircraft, and the flight plan/pin/registration system that some are proposing to get a shot or two off. Its not rocket science... and rocket science is not that difficult. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Blahr 0 #57 July 17, 2003 Quote Just look at this way, GWB will be out of office on 1/20/09. So you only have 5 1/2 more years to worry about. Unless Jeb is elected in 2008? Chris Did I miss the election or something? Silly me, I thought it was in 04 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #58 July 17, 2003 No, it's just my sarcastic way of pissing off the GWB haters. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #59 July 17, 2003 QuoteOf course there's not a chance in hell they will consider that, so the point is probably moot. They will...eventually. At the very least, DC style ADIZs will replace the moving TFRs. It makes no sense that the distance I can fly from the president changes depending on where he happens to be. The security of the president is important to national security. But the threat isnt large enough to justify the restrictions. My point in all this isn't that we shouldnt protect the president when he travels. It's that we can protect the president well enough without affecting so many peoples lives. It's not just skydivers that are suffering. Flight schools, mechanics, banner towers, and all kinds of other flight related jobs are affected by this. And the presidential flight restrictions are only one of many different post 9/11 flight restrictions. Banner towers cant fly over disney world because disney basically purchased a restricted area. Security purposes? My ass. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tsalnukt 1 #60 July 18, 2003 Do you work??????? What if you had an assload of work to do and someone came along and said that you cannot under any circumstances, work, and by the way, if you don't work, you don't get paid. Fuck this employment at will shit. It is not a mandatory thing. If it was there would be a whole lot less people begging for nickles and dimes on the streets. This isn't about whether I choose to work or not, this is about our mighty leader. Our Commander in Chief, our Captain of this ship of fools (this is not specifically about Bush) This is about the people. Aren't we the ones that the "chief" is supposed to be watching out for???? Didn't we (not me) elect this clown b/c we thought he would do the best for "the people"????? OOPS. I forgot it isn't "the people" that really elect the president. I think we are totally off the point. I'm still trying. This isn't just for my DZ right now. No body has spoken up and said whether or not this has happened to anyone else in the past, but I'm hoping to at least get somewhere. F-U to all the people that think that everything that the gov't does is right and in the best interest of the people. (Remember: "WE THE PEOPLE......and why that came about)Whoknows and who cares whether or not we can get this changed right now. This is so that when someone else puts up a similar post about the same shit with a diffrent president (or maybe the same one) then we might have, at the very least, some direction to go in. Talk about the pres. and national security and 9/11 and anything else you like. The president is coming to town and people are being put out of work???? Is this perfectly normal to some people??????? Am I the only one that this does not make sense to?????? F the whole security thing. They need some better security people then.This man is supposed to be "working" for us. We(not me) the people chose this man out of our own free will to represent us and make very big decisions based on what is right for us, "the people". He is doing damage to the people in the vey town that someone in hisfamily pays taxes to. Anyone that actually makes their sole income from skydiving and thinks I'm totally wrong plz let me know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tsalnukt 1 #61 July 18, 2003 Shouldn't the USPA be able to help withsomething????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkySlut 0 #62 July 18, 2003 Why not have Carp send you all down to Boston-Providence or Plum Island...SDNE owns em all anyways. Hook a brotha up!!! I am suprised that they havent tried to reschedule students there for those few days. Pain in the ass, yes, but I guess that working would interfere with all the offtime drinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tsalnukt 1 #63 July 18, 2003 Yup. That's entirely possible, but not the point. Remember last year? We had a good time, and I'm sure that we will have fun again. The deal is that this is happening again and again. I see a trend starting and if it is 2 times this year, then how many times will it be next year. What if he wants to take a 2 week vacation? Plum Island isn't open yet and BP has a staff, but then where do our fun jumpers go? (Fun jumping is not allowed in RI.) It's just a big pain in the balls. Thanks George! I can see why moral is low in Iraq. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkySlut 0 #64 July 18, 2003 well maybe we need to start another war somewhere so we can keep him working in Washington...makes for good tv, too. Seriously, I really think that your f'd...until the whole world unites and has a coke and a smile, I dont think that 30 mile ban is going to be lifted. I wouldnt see why an AFF student wouldnt head to BP for a weekend...especially since the weather has been so bad this season...they gotta be just as itching to jump as you guys. They dont do AFF down there anymore do they??? If you get enough tandems headed down there, they are going to need work to finish them. Have chuck fire up the otter and have a couple of planes down there and have a joint DZ boogie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakyrat 1 #65 July 18, 2003 There are a lot of pissed off pilots in Dallas Today. He's going to shut down Love Field to General Aviation for 6 Hours. In a consolation they limited his TFR Prohibited Airspace to a six mile ring to keep Dallas Addison and Redbird open. He's going to shut down the Houston DZ's tomorrow from about 4-8 PM Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tsalnukt 1 #66 July 18, 2003 Just to clarify something quick, we can fly to our heart's content when the president is in town, we just can't jump. Does this make sense to anyone? What do they think they are protecting by allowing planes to go up but not jumpers out? I don't know many people who could make the 30 mile trip under canopy over to Kennebunk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andie787 0 #67 July 18, 2003 QuoteThis country paid a huge price as a result of 9/11, unfortunately your dz is one of the victims. But as far as the sacrifice the victims of 9/11 are paying, I would say your sacrifice is pretty low down the list. Chris Chirs, I don't know you, but you usually seem pretty reasonable. I just want to point out the flaws and the danger in statements like yours. This DZ in Maine is not a victim of 9/11. How long will this go on? A nation as strong and as proud as the USA using 9/11 as an excuse for everything imaginable from indefinitely detaining people without charges, to occupying foreign countries, to increasing spending on defense, to backing out of treaties, to unreasonable searches... But it's the second part of your statement that is supposed to stop any opposition to any "security" measure, no matter how incomprehensible... Essentially you're reminding people that because they are still alive, while others are dead, they have no right to complain. Excuse me but that's bullshit. No one should feel GUILTY and give up their freedom of speech or any other freedom because they weren't killed in 9/11! The DZ is paying the price for being close to the home of the President of the mightiest country in the world today and therefore the country that experiences the biggest global backlash to any decision that it makes. Your president is granted almost unlimited power and that gives him the right to arbitrarily draw a circle around himself as large as he likes. He could make it 50 miles if he wanted and people like you would make sure no one stepped out of line to question it because they haven't sacrificed enough to earn the right. This is not the way you became the country that you are today. Please, you have my respect and my sympathy, and you once had the sympathy of the whole world. God save your souls if Bush is still your President by 2009... Andie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #68 July 18, 2003 "Chirs, I don't know you, but you usually seem pretty reasonable. I just want to point out the flaws and the danger in statements like yours." Ok "This DZ in Maine is not a victim of 9/11. How long will this go on? A nation as strong and as proud as the USA using 9/11 as an excuse for everything imaginable from indefinitely detaining people without charges, to occupying foreign countries, to increasing spending on defense, to backing out of treaties, to unreasonable searches..." This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. They happen to be located near the President's family residence. Our country has been inundated with threats from certain groups to "kill all Americans." Sorry, but with threats like that, I will leave the security of our nation in the hands of our administration. It hasn't even been two years yet. "But it's the second part of your statement that is supposed to stop any opposition to any "security" measure, no matter how incomprehensible... Essentially you're reminding people that because they are still alive, while others are dead, they have no right to complain. Excuse me but that's bullshit. No one should feel GUILTY and give up their freedom of speech or any other freedom because they weren't killed in 9/11!" No, they have every right to complain if they wish. Don't get me wrong, I am not rejoicing in the revenue this dz is losing, quite the opposite. But once again, unfortunately they are located near the President's family's residence. And we are a country at war. "The DZ is paying the price for being close to the home of the President of the mightiest country in the world today and therefore the country that experiences the biggest global backlash to any decision that it makes." Addressed up above "Your president is granted almost unlimited power and that gives him the right to arbitrarily draw a circle around himself as large as he likes. He could make it 50 miles if he wanted and people like you would make sure no one stepped out of line to question it because they haven't sacrificed enough to earn the right." First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. We have built in checks and balances. Secondly, you don't know who I am, so you cannot claim that "I would make sure noone stepped out of line". "This is not the way you became the country that you are today. Please, you have my respect and my sympathy, and you once had the sympathy of the whole world". Thanks for your sympathy, however, I don't know how you can know how the whole world feels. "God save your souls if Bush is still your President by 2009..." By God's Grace, I hope he still is. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #69 July 18, 2003 >This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. Honestly I'm getting a little sick of this. 9/11 was a worse attack than Pearl Harbor? Terrorists are more dangerous than the USSR, who had the ability to annhiliate us AND who said they were going to do it? It's worse than "the war to end all wars?" (which, BTW, happened almost a century ago.) It's more of a threat to the US than the civil war, a war in which our government(s) killed over 500,000 of its own citizens? 9/11 could have happened in 1970. It could happen today. It can happen in 2010. The threat has not changed; people still hate us. If you think they don't, and our safety precautions make us immune to such threats nowadays - well, good for you, but that's not reality. We are better prepared, but that's not because of the TSA or a 30 mile exclusion zone, it's because the Todd Beamers of the US now know what a hijacker can do. Note that that one man (and his associates on the plane) did what the entire armed forces of the US could not do, and stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. >And we are a country at war. Against who? Or is this like one of those "war against illiteracy" things, where the enemy is this shadowy unspecified thing, useful mainly to let the goverment do whatever they want in the name of winning? >First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. >We have built in checks and balances. Not any more. He does not even go to congress to ask for a declaration of war; declaring war is a right reserved to congress in the constitution. This administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any administration before him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites juanesky 0 #70 July 19, 2003 Bill, I will never forget 9/11. It is hard for it has affected us like nothing else has affected before. THe international implications had tremendous consequences, and did in fact reverberate worldwide. Now, terrorism has existed before, no doubt, but the difference is that now, we know that they are willing to put anyone at risk regardless their origins. Imagine if an airliner anywhere in the world now would enter any of these zones, when forbidden, they WILL BE SHOT DOWN. So, if you are a person in Spain, travelling from Madrid to NYC, then you can imagine, that you could be shot down, even if it is a pilot error entering some area he should have not. This was never thought of before, and now they have the true legacy, to shot first and ask questions later.... It has made people wary all over the world is not just here. It has affected at so many levels the world economy too, just take the figures on international travel, tourism, (where it is the main income on many nations), so tell me what would be the magic solution there is. Nothing much but the great risk of creating big brothers all over the world in the name of protection. Granted the US has made MANY grave and not so grave mistakes througout its history, Slavery, McCarhtyism, segregation, yet there has always been a way, hard or not for the people to fight and overcome these obstacles for believe or not, it is a democracy. It is sad that the people at Lebanon will be hurt, as our sport has also suffered. I also became homeless this year for the fact that FAA will not allow fun jumpers in Lincoln RI. I'm pissed about it, but the DZO's are trying the best to get us jumping, as well as USPA, and all the venues possible. Believe it or not we all have suffered for this, of course far less than those who did on that somber day. The sad part of my point of view is the fact that to change the world, the only way is with education, control population growth and seek other venues that far trascend just simple national frontiers. The earth as a planet can only take so much abuse by us, yet no nation is really committed in seeking real solutions. (Yes there are a lot of treaties and conventions about the greenhouse effects, contamination and all that, yet the cities worldwide get bigger and bigger, and soon we will find out that this old planet will not hold room for 9 trillion people going to the restroom at the same time without making a mess. Stop blaming it all to one particular nation. If we were trully commited to a better future, we would not ride planes, drive cars, and procreate like bunnies. Just my 2 cts."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #71 July 19, 2003 Quote>This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. Honestly I'm getting a little sick of this. 9/11 was a worse attack than Pearl Harbor? Terrorists are more dangerous than the USSR, who had the ability to annhiliate us AND who said they were going to do it? It's worse than "the war to end all wars?" (which, BTW, happened almost a century ago.) It's more of a threat to the US than the civil war, a war in which our government(s) killed over 500,000 of its own citizens? Where in this statement did I say any of this? Sorry you're getting "sick of the 9/11 excuse", but I hate to break it to you, it won't go away anytime soon. Hell, my cousins nephew who was born AFTER his father was killed is just learning to walk. We haven't even passed the 2nd anniversary. QuoteNote that that one man (and his associates on the plane) did what the entire armed forces of the US could not do, and stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Not to take anything away from the heroics of Todd Beamer, but perhaps some prayers were also said, that stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Quote>And we are a country at war. Against who? Or is this like one of those "war against illiteracy" things, where the enemy is this shadowy unspecified thing, useful mainly to let the goverment do whatever they want in the name of winning? In case you haven't been listening because you were installing some solar panels on your roof, the war is against terrorism and those that harbor and support terrorists. It's not very different than a war on drugs, you know the faceless dealers who pump illegal drugs into our society and destroy lives. Should we abandon this war also? Quote>First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. >We have built in checks and balances. Not any more. He does not even go to congress to ask for a declaration of war; declaring war is a right reserved to congress in the constitution. This administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any administration before him. Our President did have the backing of Congress. As for your presumption that "this administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any other administration." I'd like to see stats backing that. I'm sure you have them stored away somewhere. Bill, why don't you be honest with yourself and the rest of us. You're in league with Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin and hate this administration with a passion. You've pushed your agenda here ad nauseum. This is really getting old. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakyrat 1 #72 July 20, 2003 The reason they got the 30 mile TFR is because some of the idiot private pilots we have in Texas including a Piper Cheyenne pilot couldn't even stay out of a simple 10 mile TFR at the Crawford Ranch so the TSA and SS decided I suppose to penalize everyone. The Dallas TFR and Houston TFR inner ring were shortened this weekend to 6 and 8 miles respectively to allow the continued operaton of Addison and Redbird airports during his visit to Dallas and continued ops of the Houston Medical Center Helicopters when he visted Houston. I personally think 30 mi is to much of an airspace grab as do the AOPA and others. After all he shut down a major airport Dallas Love Field to all but air carrier ops for some 7 hrs yesterday. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #73 July 20, 2003 >Imagine if an airliner anywhere in the world now would enter any of these zones, when >forbidden, they WILL BE SHOT DOWN. >This was never thought of before, and now they have the true legacy, to shot first and >ask questions later.... Passenger airliners HAVE been shot down by governments before without good reason! It's nothing new at all. And aircraft have flown over the White House several times since 9/11; they were intercepted 15 minutes after they left the area. None have been shot down. Despite a lot of noise about security, we're not a lot better defended from a terrorist attack than we were before. In many ways, our freedoms mean we'll always be more vulnerable than, say, China is. >The sad part of my point of view is the fact that to change the world, the only >way is with education, control population growth and seek other venues that far trascend >just simple national frontiers. I agree with you here 100%. We have to look beyond our own borders and the next 4 years to effectively plan for the future. >Stop blaming it all to one particular nation. If we were trully commited to a better future, >we would not ride planes, drive cars, and procreate like bunnies. I agree here too. It will take an effort by all nations (and all peoples.) All we can do is our part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #74 July 20, 2003 >Not to take anything away from the heroics of Todd Beamer, but perhaps some prayers were >also said, that stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Right, and perhaps a witch cast a spell on the plane to stop it as well. But in the real world of cause and effect, passengers stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. >In case you haven't been listening because you were installing some solar panels >on your roof, the war is against terrorism and those that harbor and support terrorists. >It's not very different than a war on drugs, you know the faceless dealers who pump >illegal drugs into our society and destroy lives. Should we abandon this war also? OK, no problem. Just clarifying terms. I consider a war an event where you kill people to achieve your political goals; you consider it a more theoretical thing - that you can wage war against, for example, illiteracy (I'm sure you don't consider killing illiterates to be a valid part of the war against illiteracy.) Just don't confuse the two; they are two VERY different things. >Our President did have the backing of Congress. Please show me the declaration of war, then. >Bill, why don't you be honest with yourself and the rest of us. You're in league with >Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin and hate this administration with a passion. >You've pushed your agenda here ad nauseum. You've caught me! Why, Babs was just over here the other day plotting how to let the terrorists win. Jane Fonda couldn't come over, she was trying to get some american POW's killed. Believe what you will. I would vote for Powell in a heartbeat (who, as you may have noticed, is part of this administration) and I think Rice is a very bright woman. I think our current president is doing a quite poor job, and I live in a country where we are free to say that. >This is really getting old. And you pushing your blind-obedience-to-GWB agenda isn't? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites howardwhite 5 #75 July 20, 2003 QuoteI also became homeless this year for the fact that FAA will not allow fun jumpers in Lincoln RI. Wasn't the FAA; it was the state of Rhode Island, which owns the airport and which has other absurd rules such as that every skydiver must have a medical certificate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Blahr 0 #57 July 17, 2003 Quote Just look at this way, GWB will be out of office on 1/20/09. So you only have 5 1/2 more years to worry about. Unless Jeb is elected in 2008? Chris Did I miss the election or something? Silly me, I thought it was in 04 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #58 July 17, 2003 No, it's just my sarcastic way of pissing off the GWB haters. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #59 July 17, 2003 QuoteOf course there's not a chance in hell they will consider that, so the point is probably moot. They will...eventually. At the very least, DC style ADIZs will replace the moving TFRs. It makes no sense that the distance I can fly from the president changes depending on where he happens to be. The security of the president is important to national security. But the threat isnt large enough to justify the restrictions. My point in all this isn't that we shouldnt protect the president when he travels. It's that we can protect the president well enough without affecting so many peoples lives. It's not just skydivers that are suffering. Flight schools, mechanics, banner towers, and all kinds of other flight related jobs are affected by this. And the presidential flight restrictions are only one of many different post 9/11 flight restrictions. Banner towers cant fly over disney world because disney basically purchased a restricted area. Security purposes? My ass. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #60 July 18, 2003 Do you work??????? What if you had an assload of work to do and someone came along and said that you cannot under any circumstances, work, and by the way, if you don't work, you don't get paid. Fuck this employment at will shit. It is not a mandatory thing. If it was there would be a whole lot less people begging for nickles and dimes on the streets. This isn't about whether I choose to work or not, this is about our mighty leader. Our Commander in Chief, our Captain of this ship of fools (this is not specifically about Bush) This is about the people. Aren't we the ones that the "chief" is supposed to be watching out for???? Didn't we (not me) elect this clown b/c we thought he would do the best for "the people"????? OOPS. I forgot it isn't "the people" that really elect the president. I think we are totally off the point. I'm still trying. This isn't just for my DZ right now. No body has spoken up and said whether or not this has happened to anyone else in the past, but I'm hoping to at least get somewhere. F-U to all the people that think that everything that the gov't does is right and in the best interest of the people. (Remember: "WE THE PEOPLE......and why that came about)Whoknows and who cares whether or not we can get this changed right now. This is so that when someone else puts up a similar post about the same shit with a diffrent president (or maybe the same one) then we might have, at the very least, some direction to go in. Talk about the pres. and national security and 9/11 and anything else you like. The president is coming to town and people are being put out of work???? Is this perfectly normal to some people??????? Am I the only one that this does not make sense to?????? F the whole security thing. They need some better security people then.This man is supposed to be "working" for us. We(not me) the people chose this man out of our own free will to represent us and make very big decisions based on what is right for us, "the people". He is doing damage to the people in the vey town that someone in hisfamily pays taxes to. Anyone that actually makes their sole income from skydiving and thinks I'm totally wrong plz let me know Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #61 July 18, 2003 Shouldn't the USPA be able to help withsomething????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #62 July 18, 2003 Why not have Carp send you all down to Boston-Providence or Plum Island...SDNE owns em all anyways. Hook a brotha up!!! I am suprised that they havent tried to reschedule students there for those few days. Pain in the ass, yes, but I guess that working would interfere with all the offtime drinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tsalnukt 1 #63 July 18, 2003 Yup. That's entirely possible, but not the point. Remember last year? We had a good time, and I'm sure that we will have fun again. The deal is that this is happening again and again. I see a trend starting and if it is 2 times this year, then how many times will it be next year. What if he wants to take a 2 week vacation? Plum Island isn't open yet and BP has a staff, but then where do our fun jumpers go? (Fun jumping is not allowed in RI.) It's just a big pain in the balls. Thanks George! I can see why moral is low in Iraq. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkySlut 0 #64 July 18, 2003 well maybe we need to start another war somewhere so we can keep him working in Washington...makes for good tv, too. Seriously, I really think that your f'd...until the whole world unites and has a coke and a smile, I dont think that 30 mile ban is going to be lifted. I wouldnt see why an AFF student wouldnt head to BP for a weekend...especially since the weather has been so bad this season...they gotta be just as itching to jump as you guys. They dont do AFF down there anymore do they??? If you get enough tandems headed down there, they are going to need work to finish them. Have chuck fire up the otter and have a couple of planes down there and have a joint DZ boogie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakyrat 1 #65 July 18, 2003 There are a lot of pissed off pilots in Dallas Today. He's going to shut down Love Field to General Aviation for 6 Hours. In a consolation they limited his TFR Prohibited Airspace to a six mile ring to keep Dallas Addison and Redbird open. He's going to shut down the Houston DZ's tomorrow from about 4-8 PM Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tsalnukt 1 #66 July 18, 2003 Just to clarify something quick, we can fly to our heart's content when the president is in town, we just can't jump. Does this make sense to anyone? What do they think they are protecting by allowing planes to go up but not jumpers out? I don't know many people who could make the 30 mile trip under canopy over to Kennebunk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andie787 0 #67 July 18, 2003 QuoteThis country paid a huge price as a result of 9/11, unfortunately your dz is one of the victims. But as far as the sacrifice the victims of 9/11 are paying, I would say your sacrifice is pretty low down the list. Chris Chirs, I don't know you, but you usually seem pretty reasonable. I just want to point out the flaws and the danger in statements like yours. This DZ in Maine is not a victim of 9/11. How long will this go on? A nation as strong and as proud as the USA using 9/11 as an excuse for everything imaginable from indefinitely detaining people without charges, to occupying foreign countries, to increasing spending on defense, to backing out of treaties, to unreasonable searches... But it's the second part of your statement that is supposed to stop any opposition to any "security" measure, no matter how incomprehensible... Essentially you're reminding people that because they are still alive, while others are dead, they have no right to complain. Excuse me but that's bullshit. No one should feel GUILTY and give up their freedom of speech or any other freedom because they weren't killed in 9/11! The DZ is paying the price for being close to the home of the President of the mightiest country in the world today and therefore the country that experiences the biggest global backlash to any decision that it makes. Your president is granted almost unlimited power and that gives him the right to arbitrarily draw a circle around himself as large as he likes. He could make it 50 miles if he wanted and people like you would make sure no one stepped out of line to question it because they haven't sacrificed enough to earn the right. This is not the way you became the country that you are today. Please, you have my respect and my sympathy, and you once had the sympathy of the whole world. God save your souls if Bush is still your President by 2009... Andie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #68 July 18, 2003 "Chirs, I don't know you, but you usually seem pretty reasonable. I just want to point out the flaws and the danger in statements like yours." Ok "This DZ in Maine is not a victim of 9/11. How long will this go on? A nation as strong and as proud as the USA using 9/11 as an excuse for everything imaginable from indefinitely detaining people without charges, to occupying foreign countries, to increasing spending on defense, to backing out of treaties, to unreasonable searches..." This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. They happen to be located near the President's family residence. Our country has been inundated with threats from certain groups to "kill all Americans." Sorry, but with threats like that, I will leave the security of our nation in the hands of our administration. It hasn't even been two years yet. "But it's the second part of your statement that is supposed to stop any opposition to any "security" measure, no matter how incomprehensible... Essentially you're reminding people that because they are still alive, while others are dead, they have no right to complain. Excuse me but that's bullshit. No one should feel GUILTY and give up their freedom of speech or any other freedom because they weren't killed in 9/11!" No, they have every right to complain if they wish. Don't get me wrong, I am not rejoicing in the revenue this dz is losing, quite the opposite. But once again, unfortunately they are located near the President's family's residence. And we are a country at war. "The DZ is paying the price for being close to the home of the President of the mightiest country in the world today and therefore the country that experiences the biggest global backlash to any decision that it makes." Addressed up above "Your president is granted almost unlimited power and that gives him the right to arbitrarily draw a circle around himself as large as he likes. He could make it 50 miles if he wanted and people like you would make sure no one stepped out of line to question it because they haven't sacrificed enough to earn the right." First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. We have built in checks and balances. Secondly, you don't know who I am, so you cannot claim that "I would make sure noone stepped out of line". "This is not the way you became the country that you are today. Please, you have my respect and my sympathy, and you once had the sympathy of the whole world". Thanks for your sympathy, however, I don't know how you can know how the whole world feels. "God save your souls if Bush is still your President by 2009..." By God's Grace, I hope he still is. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #69 July 18, 2003 >This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. Honestly I'm getting a little sick of this. 9/11 was a worse attack than Pearl Harbor? Terrorists are more dangerous than the USSR, who had the ability to annhiliate us AND who said they were going to do it? It's worse than "the war to end all wars?" (which, BTW, happened almost a century ago.) It's more of a threat to the US than the civil war, a war in which our government(s) killed over 500,000 of its own citizens? 9/11 could have happened in 1970. It could happen today. It can happen in 2010. The threat has not changed; people still hate us. If you think they don't, and our safety precautions make us immune to such threats nowadays - well, good for you, but that's not reality. We are better prepared, but that's not because of the TSA or a 30 mile exclusion zone, it's because the Todd Beamers of the US now know what a hijacker can do. Note that that one man (and his associates on the plane) did what the entire armed forces of the US could not do, and stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. >And we are a country at war. Against who? Or is this like one of those "war against illiteracy" things, where the enemy is this shadowy unspecified thing, useful mainly to let the goverment do whatever they want in the name of winning? >First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. >We have built in checks and balances. Not any more. He does not even go to congress to ask for a declaration of war; declaring war is a right reserved to congress in the constitution. This administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any administration before him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites juanesky 0 #70 July 19, 2003 Bill, I will never forget 9/11. It is hard for it has affected us like nothing else has affected before. THe international implications had tremendous consequences, and did in fact reverberate worldwide. Now, terrorism has existed before, no doubt, but the difference is that now, we know that they are willing to put anyone at risk regardless their origins. Imagine if an airliner anywhere in the world now would enter any of these zones, when forbidden, they WILL BE SHOT DOWN. So, if you are a person in Spain, travelling from Madrid to NYC, then you can imagine, that you could be shot down, even if it is a pilot error entering some area he should have not. This was never thought of before, and now they have the true legacy, to shot first and ask questions later.... It has made people wary all over the world is not just here. It has affected at so many levels the world economy too, just take the figures on international travel, tourism, (where it is the main income on many nations), so tell me what would be the magic solution there is. Nothing much but the great risk of creating big brothers all over the world in the name of protection. Granted the US has made MANY grave and not so grave mistakes througout its history, Slavery, McCarhtyism, segregation, yet there has always been a way, hard or not for the people to fight and overcome these obstacles for believe or not, it is a democracy. It is sad that the people at Lebanon will be hurt, as our sport has also suffered. I also became homeless this year for the fact that FAA will not allow fun jumpers in Lincoln RI. I'm pissed about it, but the DZO's are trying the best to get us jumping, as well as USPA, and all the venues possible. Believe it or not we all have suffered for this, of course far less than those who did on that somber day. The sad part of my point of view is the fact that to change the world, the only way is with education, control population growth and seek other venues that far trascend just simple national frontiers. The earth as a planet can only take so much abuse by us, yet no nation is really committed in seeking real solutions. (Yes there are a lot of treaties and conventions about the greenhouse effects, contamination and all that, yet the cities worldwide get bigger and bigger, and soon we will find out that this old planet will not hold room for 9 trillion people going to the restroom at the same time without making a mess. Stop blaming it all to one particular nation. If we were trully commited to a better future, we would not ride planes, drive cars, and procreate like bunnies. Just my 2 cts."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Muenkel 0 #71 July 19, 2003 Quote>This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. Honestly I'm getting a little sick of this. 9/11 was a worse attack than Pearl Harbor? Terrorists are more dangerous than the USSR, who had the ability to annhiliate us AND who said they were going to do it? It's worse than "the war to end all wars?" (which, BTW, happened almost a century ago.) It's more of a threat to the US than the civil war, a war in which our government(s) killed over 500,000 of its own citizens? Where in this statement did I say any of this? Sorry you're getting "sick of the 9/11 excuse", but I hate to break it to you, it won't go away anytime soon. Hell, my cousins nephew who was born AFTER his father was killed is just learning to walk. We haven't even passed the 2nd anniversary. QuoteNote that that one man (and his associates on the plane) did what the entire armed forces of the US could not do, and stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Not to take anything away from the heroics of Todd Beamer, but perhaps some prayers were also said, that stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Quote>And we are a country at war. Against who? Or is this like one of those "war against illiteracy" things, where the enemy is this shadowy unspecified thing, useful mainly to let the goverment do whatever they want in the name of winning? In case you haven't been listening because you were installing some solar panels on your roof, the war is against terrorism and those that harbor and support terrorists. It's not very different than a war on drugs, you know the faceless dealers who pump illegal drugs into our society and destroy lives. Should we abandon this war also? Quote>First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. >We have built in checks and balances. Not any more. He does not even go to congress to ask for a declaration of war; declaring war is a right reserved to congress in the constitution. This administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any administration before him. Our President did have the backing of Congress. As for your presumption that "this administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any other administration." I'd like to see stats backing that. I'm sure you have them stored away somewhere. Bill, why don't you be honest with yourself and the rest of us. You're in league with Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin and hate this administration with a passion. You've pushed your agenda here ad nauseum. This is really getting old. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakyrat 1 #72 July 20, 2003 The reason they got the 30 mile TFR is because some of the idiot private pilots we have in Texas including a Piper Cheyenne pilot couldn't even stay out of a simple 10 mile TFR at the Crawford Ranch so the TSA and SS decided I suppose to penalize everyone. The Dallas TFR and Houston TFR inner ring were shortened this weekend to 6 and 8 miles respectively to allow the continued operaton of Addison and Redbird airports during his visit to Dallas and continued ops of the Houston Medical Center Helicopters when he visted Houston. I personally think 30 mi is to much of an airspace grab as do the AOPA and others. After all he shut down a major airport Dallas Love Field to all but air carrier ops for some 7 hrs yesterday. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #73 July 20, 2003 >Imagine if an airliner anywhere in the world now would enter any of these zones, when >forbidden, they WILL BE SHOT DOWN. >This was never thought of before, and now they have the true legacy, to shot first and >ask questions later.... Passenger airliners HAVE been shot down by governments before without good reason! It's nothing new at all. And aircraft have flown over the White House several times since 9/11; they were intercepted 15 minutes after they left the area. None have been shot down. Despite a lot of noise about security, we're not a lot better defended from a terrorist attack than we were before. In many ways, our freedoms mean we'll always be more vulnerable than, say, China is. >The sad part of my point of view is the fact that to change the world, the only >way is with education, control population growth and seek other venues that far trascend >just simple national frontiers. I agree with you here 100%. We have to look beyond our own borders and the next 4 years to effectively plan for the future. >Stop blaming it all to one particular nation. If we were trully commited to a better future, >we would not ride planes, drive cars, and procreate like bunnies. I agree here too. It will take an effort by all nations (and all peoples.) All we can do is our part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,435 #74 July 20, 2003 >Not to take anything away from the heroics of Todd Beamer, but perhaps some prayers were >also said, that stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Right, and perhaps a witch cast a spell on the plane to stop it as well. But in the real world of cause and effect, passengers stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. >In case you haven't been listening because you were installing some solar panels >on your roof, the war is against terrorism and those that harbor and support terrorists. >It's not very different than a war on drugs, you know the faceless dealers who pump >illegal drugs into our society and destroy lives. Should we abandon this war also? OK, no problem. Just clarifying terms. I consider a war an event where you kill people to achieve your political goals; you consider it a more theoretical thing - that you can wage war against, for example, illiteracy (I'm sure you don't consider killing illiterates to be a valid part of the war against illiteracy.) Just don't confuse the two; they are two VERY different things. >Our President did have the backing of Congress. Please show me the declaration of war, then. >Bill, why don't you be honest with yourself and the rest of us. You're in league with >Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin and hate this administration with a passion. >You've pushed your agenda here ad nauseum. You've caught me! Why, Babs was just over here the other day plotting how to let the terrorists win. Jane Fonda couldn't come over, she was trying to get some american POW's killed. Believe what you will. I would vote for Powell in a heartbeat (who, as you may have noticed, is part of this administration) and I think Rice is a very bright woman. I think our current president is doing a quite poor job, and I live in a country where we are free to say that. >This is really getting old. And you pushing your blind-obedience-to-GWB agenda isn't? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites howardwhite 5 #75 July 20, 2003 QuoteI also became homeless this year for the fact that FAA will not allow fun jumpers in Lincoln RI. Wasn't the FAA; it was the state of Rhode Island, which owns the airport and which has other absurd rules such as that every skydiver must have a medical certificate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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tsalnukt 1 #63 July 18, 2003 Yup. That's entirely possible, but not the point. Remember last year? We had a good time, and I'm sure that we will have fun again. The deal is that this is happening again and again. I see a trend starting and if it is 2 times this year, then how many times will it be next year. What if he wants to take a 2 week vacation? Plum Island isn't open yet and BP has a staff, but then where do our fun jumpers go? (Fun jumping is not allowed in RI.) It's just a big pain in the balls. Thanks George! I can see why moral is low in Iraq. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkySlut 0 #64 July 18, 2003 well maybe we need to start another war somewhere so we can keep him working in Washington...makes for good tv, too. Seriously, I really think that your f'd...until the whole world unites and has a coke and a smile, I dont think that 30 mile ban is going to be lifted. I wouldnt see why an AFF student wouldnt head to BP for a weekend...especially since the weather has been so bad this season...they gotta be just as itching to jump as you guys. They dont do AFF down there anymore do they??? If you get enough tandems headed down there, they are going to need work to finish them. Have chuck fire up the otter and have a couple of planes down there and have a joint DZ boogie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyrat 1 #65 July 18, 2003 There are a lot of pissed off pilots in Dallas Today. He's going to shut down Love Field to General Aviation for 6 Hours. In a consolation they limited his TFR Prohibited Airspace to a six mile ring to keep Dallas Addison and Redbird open. He's going to shut down the Houston DZ's tomorrow from about 4-8 PM Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #66 July 18, 2003 Just to clarify something quick, we can fly to our heart's content when the president is in town, we just can't jump. Does this make sense to anyone? What do they think they are protecting by allowing planes to go up but not jumpers out? I don't know many people who could make the 30 mile trip under canopy over to Kennebunk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andie787 0 #67 July 18, 2003 QuoteThis country paid a huge price as a result of 9/11, unfortunately your dz is one of the victims. But as far as the sacrifice the victims of 9/11 are paying, I would say your sacrifice is pretty low down the list. Chris Chirs, I don't know you, but you usually seem pretty reasonable. I just want to point out the flaws and the danger in statements like yours. This DZ in Maine is not a victim of 9/11. How long will this go on? A nation as strong and as proud as the USA using 9/11 as an excuse for everything imaginable from indefinitely detaining people without charges, to occupying foreign countries, to increasing spending on defense, to backing out of treaties, to unreasonable searches... But it's the second part of your statement that is supposed to stop any opposition to any "security" measure, no matter how incomprehensible... Essentially you're reminding people that because they are still alive, while others are dead, they have no right to complain. Excuse me but that's bullshit. No one should feel GUILTY and give up their freedom of speech or any other freedom because they weren't killed in 9/11! The DZ is paying the price for being close to the home of the President of the mightiest country in the world today and therefore the country that experiences the biggest global backlash to any decision that it makes. Your president is granted almost unlimited power and that gives him the right to arbitrarily draw a circle around himself as large as he likes. He could make it 50 miles if he wanted and people like you would make sure no one stepped out of line to question it because they haven't sacrificed enough to earn the right. This is not the way you became the country that you are today. Please, you have my respect and my sympathy, and you once had the sympathy of the whole world. God save your souls if Bush is still your President by 2009... Andie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #68 July 18, 2003 "Chirs, I don't know you, but you usually seem pretty reasonable. I just want to point out the flaws and the danger in statements like yours." Ok "This DZ in Maine is not a victim of 9/11. How long will this go on? A nation as strong and as proud as the USA using 9/11 as an excuse for everything imaginable from indefinitely detaining people without charges, to occupying foreign countries, to increasing spending on defense, to backing out of treaties, to unreasonable searches..." This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. They happen to be located near the President's family residence. Our country has been inundated with threats from certain groups to "kill all Americans." Sorry, but with threats like that, I will leave the security of our nation in the hands of our administration. It hasn't even been two years yet. "But it's the second part of your statement that is supposed to stop any opposition to any "security" measure, no matter how incomprehensible... Essentially you're reminding people that because they are still alive, while others are dead, they have no right to complain. Excuse me but that's bullshit. No one should feel GUILTY and give up their freedom of speech or any other freedom because they weren't killed in 9/11!" No, they have every right to complain if they wish. Don't get me wrong, I am not rejoicing in the revenue this dz is losing, quite the opposite. But once again, unfortunately they are located near the President's family's residence. And we are a country at war. "The DZ is paying the price for being close to the home of the President of the mightiest country in the world today and therefore the country that experiences the biggest global backlash to any decision that it makes." Addressed up above "Your president is granted almost unlimited power and that gives him the right to arbitrarily draw a circle around himself as large as he likes. He could make it 50 miles if he wanted and people like you would make sure no one stepped out of line to question it because they haven't sacrificed enough to earn the right." First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. We have built in checks and balances. Secondly, you don't know who I am, so you cannot claim that "I would make sure noone stepped out of line". "This is not the way you became the country that you are today. Please, you have my respect and my sympathy, and you once had the sympathy of the whole world". Thanks for your sympathy, however, I don't know how you can know how the whole world feels. "God save your souls if Bush is still your President by 2009..." By God's Grace, I hope he still is. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #69 July 18, 2003 >This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. Honestly I'm getting a little sick of this. 9/11 was a worse attack than Pearl Harbor? Terrorists are more dangerous than the USSR, who had the ability to annhiliate us AND who said they were going to do it? It's worse than "the war to end all wars?" (which, BTW, happened almost a century ago.) It's more of a threat to the US than the civil war, a war in which our government(s) killed over 500,000 of its own citizens? 9/11 could have happened in 1970. It could happen today. It can happen in 2010. The threat has not changed; people still hate us. If you think they don't, and our safety precautions make us immune to such threats nowadays - well, good for you, but that's not reality. We are better prepared, but that's not because of the TSA or a 30 mile exclusion zone, it's because the Todd Beamers of the US now know what a hijacker can do. Note that that one man (and his associates on the plane) did what the entire armed forces of the US could not do, and stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. >And we are a country at war. Against who? Or is this like one of those "war against illiteracy" things, where the enemy is this shadowy unspecified thing, useful mainly to let the goverment do whatever they want in the name of winning? >First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. >We have built in checks and balances. Not any more. He does not even go to congress to ask for a declaration of war; declaring war is a right reserved to congress in the constitution. This administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any administration before him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #70 July 19, 2003 Bill, I will never forget 9/11. It is hard for it has affected us like nothing else has affected before. THe international implications had tremendous consequences, and did in fact reverberate worldwide. Now, terrorism has existed before, no doubt, but the difference is that now, we know that they are willing to put anyone at risk regardless their origins. Imagine if an airliner anywhere in the world now would enter any of these zones, when forbidden, they WILL BE SHOT DOWN. So, if you are a person in Spain, travelling from Madrid to NYC, then you can imagine, that you could be shot down, even if it is a pilot error entering some area he should have not. This was never thought of before, and now they have the true legacy, to shot first and ask questions later.... It has made people wary all over the world is not just here. It has affected at so many levels the world economy too, just take the figures on international travel, tourism, (where it is the main income on many nations), so tell me what would be the magic solution there is. Nothing much but the great risk of creating big brothers all over the world in the name of protection. Granted the US has made MANY grave and not so grave mistakes througout its history, Slavery, McCarhtyism, segregation, yet there has always been a way, hard or not for the people to fight and overcome these obstacles for believe or not, it is a democracy. It is sad that the people at Lebanon will be hurt, as our sport has also suffered. I also became homeless this year for the fact that FAA will not allow fun jumpers in Lincoln RI. I'm pissed about it, but the DZO's are trying the best to get us jumping, as well as USPA, and all the venues possible. Believe it or not we all have suffered for this, of course far less than those who did on that somber day. The sad part of my point of view is the fact that to change the world, the only way is with education, control population growth and seek other venues that far trascend just simple national frontiers. The earth as a planet can only take so much abuse by us, yet no nation is really committed in seeking real solutions. (Yes there are a lot of treaties and conventions about the greenhouse effects, contamination and all that, yet the cities worldwide get bigger and bigger, and soon we will find out that this old planet will not hold room for 9 trillion people going to the restroom at the same time without making a mess. Stop blaming it all to one particular nation. If we were trully commited to a better future, we would not ride planes, drive cars, and procreate like bunnies. Just my 2 cts."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #71 July 19, 2003 Quote>This dz is a victim of how things have changed since 9/11. Honestly I'm getting a little sick of this. 9/11 was a worse attack than Pearl Harbor? Terrorists are more dangerous than the USSR, who had the ability to annhiliate us AND who said they were going to do it? It's worse than "the war to end all wars?" (which, BTW, happened almost a century ago.) It's more of a threat to the US than the civil war, a war in which our government(s) killed over 500,000 of its own citizens? Where in this statement did I say any of this? Sorry you're getting "sick of the 9/11 excuse", but I hate to break it to you, it won't go away anytime soon. Hell, my cousins nephew who was born AFTER his father was killed is just learning to walk. We haven't even passed the 2nd anniversary. QuoteNote that that one man (and his associates on the plane) did what the entire armed forces of the US could not do, and stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Not to take anything away from the heroics of Todd Beamer, but perhaps some prayers were also said, that stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Quote>And we are a country at war. Against who? Or is this like one of those "war against illiteracy" things, where the enemy is this shadowy unspecified thing, useful mainly to let the goverment do whatever they want in the name of winning? In case you haven't been listening because you were installing some solar panels on your roof, the war is against terrorism and those that harbor and support terrorists. It's not very different than a war on drugs, you know the faceless dealers who pump illegal drugs into our society and destroy lives. Should we abandon this war also? Quote>First read our constitution in regard to the powers of the president. >We have built in checks and balances. Not any more. He does not even go to congress to ask for a declaration of war; declaring war is a right reserved to congress in the constitution. This administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any administration before him. Our President did have the backing of Congress. As for your presumption that "this administration has seen more laws and more expansion in the power of the presidency than any other administration." I'd like to see stats backing that. I'm sure you have them stored away somewhere. Bill, why don't you be honest with yourself and the rest of us. You're in league with Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin and hate this administration with a passion. You've pushed your agenda here ad nauseum. This is really getting old. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyrat 1 #72 July 20, 2003 The reason they got the 30 mile TFR is because some of the idiot private pilots we have in Texas including a Piper Cheyenne pilot couldn't even stay out of a simple 10 mile TFR at the Crawford Ranch so the TSA and SS decided I suppose to penalize everyone. The Dallas TFR and Houston TFR inner ring were shortened this weekend to 6 and 8 miles respectively to allow the continued operaton of Addison and Redbird airports during his visit to Dallas and continued ops of the Houston Medical Center Helicopters when he visted Houston. I personally think 30 mi is to much of an airspace grab as do the AOPA and others. After all he shut down a major airport Dallas Love Field to all but air carrier ops for some 7 hrs yesterday. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #73 July 20, 2003 >Imagine if an airliner anywhere in the world now would enter any of these zones, when >forbidden, they WILL BE SHOT DOWN. >This was never thought of before, and now they have the true legacy, to shot first and >ask questions later.... Passenger airliners HAVE been shot down by governments before without good reason! It's nothing new at all. And aircraft have flown over the White House several times since 9/11; they were intercepted 15 minutes after they left the area. None have been shot down. Despite a lot of noise about security, we're not a lot better defended from a terrorist attack than we were before. In many ways, our freedoms mean we'll always be more vulnerable than, say, China is. >The sad part of my point of view is the fact that to change the world, the only >way is with education, control population growth and seek other venues that far trascend >just simple national frontiers. I agree with you here 100%. We have to look beyond our own borders and the next 4 years to effectively plan for the future. >Stop blaming it all to one particular nation. If we were trully commited to a better future, >we would not ride planes, drive cars, and procreate like bunnies. I agree here too. It will take an effort by all nations (and all peoples.) All we can do is our part. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #74 July 20, 2003 >Not to take anything away from the heroics of Todd Beamer, but perhaps some prayers were >also said, that stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. Right, and perhaps a witch cast a spell on the plane to stop it as well. But in the real world of cause and effect, passengers stopped a hijacker from taking out a building. >In case you haven't been listening because you were installing some solar panels >on your roof, the war is against terrorism and those that harbor and support terrorists. >It's not very different than a war on drugs, you know the faceless dealers who pump >illegal drugs into our society and destroy lives. Should we abandon this war also? OK, no problem. Just clarifying terms. I consider a war an event where you kill people to achieve your political goals; you consider it a more theoretical thing - that you can wage war against, for example, illiteracy (I'm sure you don't consider killing illiterates to be a valid part of the war against illiteracy.) Just don't confuse the two; they are two VERY different things. >Our President did have the backing of Congress. Please show me the declaration of war, then. >Bill, why don't you be honest with yourself and the rest of us. You're in league with >Barbara Streisand and Alec Baldwin and hate this administration with a passion. >You've pushed your agenda here ad nauseum. You've caught me! Why, Babs was just over here the other day plotting how to let the terrorists win. Jane Fonda couldn't come over, she was trying to get some american POW's killed. Believe what you will. I would vote for Powell in a heartbeat (who, as you may have noticed, is part of this administration) and I think Rice is a very bright woman. I think our current president is doing a quite poor job, and I live in a country where we are free to say that. >This is really getting old. And you pushing your blind-obedience-to-GWB agenda isn't? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #75 July 20, 2003 QuoteI also became homeless this year for the fact that FAA will not allow fun jumpers in Lincoln RI. Wasn't the FAA; it was the state of Rhode Island, which owns the airport and which has other absurd rules such as that every skydiver must have a medical certificate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
