jaaska 0 #1 December 11, 2003 Finland - not in place here, and I'm against the CP... (So I chose option 4... Just trying to make sure people get the idea - looking at the poll now makes me think some might misunderstand the different options... ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #2 December 11, 2003 kill the commie bastards!www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #3 December 11, 2003 Quotekill the commie bastards! Huh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #4 December 11, 2003 It always interests me that so many conservative christians who are pro-life are also pro-death penalty. The ten commandments written with the hand of GOD are pretty clear on the THOU SHALT NOT KILL....and I do not see ANY good reason for having the government do it for me... I do not think a civilized country should stoop to the revenge as the lowest common denominator. On the flip side though.. criminals that find it impossible to live in a civilized manner need to be segregated from those of us who wish to live in a crime free peaceful environment. American prisons are horrible places.. and criominals need to be there with others who like themselves are horrible people. If they are violent people... isolate them and let them think about it for the rest of thier lives. That is far more "punishment" than just killing someone outright.. and the stupidity our "justice" system subjects the families too with the 15 years of appeals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #5 December 11, 2003 QuoteQuotekill the commie bastards! Huh? a joke. some people deserve death. i hope the d.c sniper gets it good. if not the death penalt, prison butt love for the rest of his life.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #6 December 11, 2003 QuoteIt always interests me that so many conservative christians who are pro-life are also pro-death penalty. The ten commandments written with the hand of GOD are pretty clear on the THOU SHALT NOT KILL.... This is something I really do not understand either... Maybe there is someone who will show me the light... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #7 December 11, 2003 It's not like I don't see your point... Also, soon there will be probably comments here in the line of "If it was your sister/child/father/friend/mother the **ck raped and painfully killed, would you not like to see him/her fried?" Now, how could I answer that question if I had not experienced it myself? It's very hard to really picture that sort of a situation... I would, probably, still say "No". It's not called the "revengesystem" - it's called the justice system. Of course I would expect that the person would get a life sentence (which in Finland doesn't mean life in many cases - and guess what, I'm ok even with that). Personally I think that this way he will have more time to think about his actions... The point I'm trying to make is: If you believe in the CP, you also have to believe that a) Your justice system is flawless OR (<---- edit: added) b) Some lapses in it should be tolerated in the name of common good (even if it means that sometimes innocents end up dying) Oh, yesterday was the international human rights day! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #8 December 11, 2003 Some people DO deserve to die. But since justice is not flawless, and it is not acceptable tath an inoccent person gets CP. I would ban CP. I would enforce life term prison though. In Spain no matter what you do, you will not get more than 40 years (it used to be 30 a couple of years ago) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #9 December 11, 2003 well we all know there is no such thing as a flawless justice system because of one thing...the human factor. You make good points and as it turns out i have no rebuttle. I can only hope that our appointed judges use extreme prejudice during sentencing. Does that mean I am suddenly against the death penalty? Hardly. I don't think we should give up on CP just because a justice system is flawed. I think putting an innocent person to death is equally as horrible as making that same person spend their life in prison. Focusing on perfecting (or getting as close as possible to) the justice system would be more productive.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #10 December 11, 2003 QuoteI think putting an innocent person to death is equally as horrible as making that same person spend their life in prison. Focusing on perfecting (or getting as close as possible to) the justice system would be more productive. Yes, I do agree. This happens, unfortunately. Although it's not that common (luckily!), there have been cases where people have been found wrongly sentenced and new evidence/re-opening of the investigation for a reason or another (the real guy gets caught a lot later etc.) has set the person originally sentenced free. (The human factor you mentioned, I'm sure this happens in all justice systems ) The difference is that while it would suck big time having spent e.g. 15 years in prison for something you did not do, you would still be alive to live the rest of your life in freedom rather than being dead already... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #11 December 11, 2003 Using the 10 commandments as a basis of anti-death sentance is wrong. The bible states that in very specific purposes (including murder) the death sentance is apropriate. CP is not about emotional revenge it is (should be) about punishment for the greatest of crimes - murder is the only clear crime I can think of. I find it an insult to people that someone can murder an individual and then here in the UK get "life" which is 15 years typical and then, a usual 50% reduction for "good behaviour".Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaaska 0 #12 December 11, 2003 QuoteCP is not about emotional revenge it is (should be) about punishment for the greatest of crimes - murder is the only clear crime I can think of. So you voted for, what? Pro-CP? (You're from UK where there is no CP, so did you choose option 2?) If so, do you also believe that a) Your justice system is flawless OR b) Some lapses in it should be tolerated in the name of common good (even if it means that sometimes innocents end up dying) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #13 December 11, 2003 From yesterday's LA Times: Prosecutors in Media, Pa., said Tuesday that they had dismissed all charges against a man who spent 21 years on death row for a rape and murder that DNA tests show he did not commit. Nicholas J. Yarris, now 43, became the 10th death row inmate exonerated this year and the 112th overall. See below for a list of other people that DNA evidence has proved innocent. These names are why I oppose capital punishment. Our system is obviously not perfect, and there is no need to risk killing an innocent person when simply holding convicted murderers in jail would have the same effect of removing them from society. ____________________________________________ 1. Jonathan Treadway -- Arizona Convicted: 1975 Released: 1978 Convicted of sodomy and first-degree murder of a six-year-old and sentenced to death. The jury acquitted him of all charges at retrial after five pathologists testified that the victim probably died of natural causes and that there was no evidence of sodomy. 2. Johnny Ross -- Louisiana Convicted: 1975 Released: 1981 Sentenced to death for rape. He was released when his blood type was found to be inconsistent with that of the rapist. 3. Henry Drake -- Georgia Convicted: 1977 Released: 1987 Resentenced to a life sentence at his second retrial. Six months later, the parole board freed him, convinced of his innocence by his alleged accomplice and by testimony from the medical examiner. 4. Kirk Bloodsworth -- Maryland Convicted: 1984 Released: 1993 Convicted and sentenced to death for the rape and murder of a young girl. Years later, a new volunteer lawyer had the girl's underwear tested with a new DNA testing technique that was not available at the original trial. The tests showed that the semen stains on the underwear could not have come from Bloodsworth. 5. Gregory R. Wilhoit -- Oklahoma Convicted: 1987 Released: 1993 Convicted of killing his estranged wife while she slept. His conviction was overturned and he was released in 1991 when 11 forensic experts testified that a bite mark found on his dead wife did not belong to him. The appeals court also found "ineffective assistance of counsel." He was acquitted at a retrial in April 1993. 6. Earl Washington -- Virginia Convicted: 1984 Commuted to life: 1994 Washington is mentally retarded. After he was arrested on another charge in 1983, police convinced him to make a statement concerning the rape and murder of a woman in 1982. He later recanted that statement. Subsequent DNA tests confirmed that Washington did not rape the victim. Shortly before leaving office in 1994, Governor Wilder commuted Washington's sentence to life with the possibility of parole. He remains incarcerated. 7. Adolph Munson -- Oklahoma Convicted: 1985 Released: 1995 Munson's conviction was unanimously overturned by Oklahoma's highest criminal appeals court in December 1994 because the state had withheld material evidence tending to exonerate Munson. Some of the forensic evidence that was used at trial to convict Munson was provided by Dr. Ralph Erdmann, who was subsequently convicted of seven felony counts involving misrepresentation of facts in other cases and stripped of his license. Munson was acquitted at a re-trial in April 1995. 8. Alejandro Hernandez -- Illinois Convicted: 1985 Released: 1995 In 1985, Cruz and Hernandez were jointly tried, convicted, and sentenced to death for the kidnapping, rape, and murder of 10-year-old Jeanine Nicarico. In September 1995, DNA tests showed that neither Cruz nor Hernandez was the source of the semen found at the crime scene. On November 3, 1995, a DuPage County judge acquitted Cruz on the basis of a recanted testimony (by a sheriff's department lieutenant) and the DNA evidence. Hernandez's case was also dismissed. 9. Sabrina Butler -- Mississippi Convicted: 1990 Released: 1995 Butler was sentenced to death in 1990, for the murder of her nine-month-old child. Upon re-trial, she was acquitted on Dec. 17, 1995. Medical evidence indicated that her baby died from cystic kidney disease or sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), and was not the result of any action on Butler's part. 10. Verneal Jimerson -- Illinois Convicted: 1985 Released: 1996 Jimerson was sentenced to death in 1985 for a murder that occurred in 1978. The chief witness against him was Paula Gray, who did not mention Jimerson in her original story to the police. Then she added his name to her account, along with three other names, including Dennis Williams (see below). She later recanted her entire testimony, saying the police had forced her to lie. The original charges against Jimerson were dismissed, but they were resurrected seven years later when the police offered to drop some charges against Gray if she would implicate Jimerson. Gray's 50-year sentence was converted to two years’ probation. In 1995, the Illinois Supreme Court unanimously reversed Jimerson's conviction, in part due to DNA evidence demonstrating that he was not involved in the crime. Jimerson was released on bond in early 1996, and charges against him were subsequently dropped. 11. Dennis Williams -- Illinois Convicted: 1979 Released: 1996 Convicted in 1979 for murder and rape. Williams spent 17 years on death row until his release in 1996 when DNA evidence cleared him of charges. 12. Robert Hayes -- Florida Convicted: 1991 Released: 1997 Hayes was convicted of the rape and murder of a co-worker based partly on faulty DNA evidence. The Florida Supreme Court threw out Hayes's conviction and the DNA evidence in 1995. The victim had been found clutching hairs probably from her assailant. The hairs were from a white man, whereas Hayes is black. Hayes was acquitted at a retrial in July 1997. 13. Robert Lee Miller, Jr.-- Oklahoma Convicted: 1988 Released: 1998 Miller was convicted of the rape and murder of two elderly women in 1988. However, recent DNA evidence points to another defendant who was already incarcerated on similar charges. Oklahoma County Special Judge Larry Jones dismissed the charges against Miller in February, 1997, saying that there was not enough evidence to justify his continued imprisonment. Miller's original conviction was overturned in 1995, and he was granted a new trial. The prosecution is appealing Judge Jones's ruling. 14. Ronald Williamson -- Oklahoma Convicted: 1988 Released: 1999 Ronald Williamson and Dennis Fritz were charged with the murder and rape of Deborah Sue Carter, which occurred in 1982. They were arrested four years after the crime. Both were convicted and Williamson was sentenced to death. In 1997, a federal appeals court overturned Williamson's conviction on the basis of "ineffectiveness of counsel." The court noted that the lawyer had failed to investigate and present to the jury the fact that another man had confessed to the crime. Recently, DNA tests from the crime scene did not match either Williamson or Fritz, but did implicate Glen Gore, a former suspect in the case. All charges against the two defendants were dismissed on April 15, 1999 and they were released. 15. Ronald Jones -- Illinois Convicted: 1989 Released: 1999 Jones was convicted for the rape and murder of a mother of three. After spending ten years on death row, he was released when DNA evidence proved he was not guilty. 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wmw999 2,146 #14 December 11, 2003 There are people who deserve to die, no doubt about it. Overall I'm against the death penalty, because life without parole is cheaper in the current US system, and more recoverable in case the state does make a mistake. I've had a co-worker murdered by someone who was given the death penalty and later executed. It didn't make me feel better, vindicated, or anything else when the killer died. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #15 December 11, 2003 QuoteUsing the 10 commandments as a basis of anti-death sentance is wrong. The bible states that in very specific purposes (including murder) the death sentance is apropriate. CP is not about emotional revenge it is (should be) about punishment for the greatest of crimes - murder is the only clear crime I can think of. I find it an insult to people that someone can murder an individual and then here in the UK get "life" which is 15 years typical and then, a usual 50% reduction for "good behaviour". Go read the Sermon on the Mount in the gospels, and tell me where Jesus was in favor.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #16 December 11, 2003 I don't think Capital Punishment is used nearly enough here in the US. My list of people eligible for CP includes Child molesters, Rapists, Murderers. If I were in charge there would be a lot fewer people in prison. When the founding fathers said a speedy trial, they didn't intend on having people sit on death row for 30 years. I say max of 5 years prefferably 2 days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #17 December 11, 2003 Thirteen death-row inmates in IL have now been exonerated, not all based on DNA evidence. One came within hours of the needle before getting a stay on a technicality (something the pro CP people have tried to eliminate). Later it was discovered he is actually innocent. Two successive governors of IL, both pro CP, have had moratoria imposed because they don't trust the system. One stated that he doesn't believe the system can ever be made perfect and while he is pro CP in theory, he is anti CP in practice. None of this ever bothered GWB in Texas, though, despite having fewer safeguards than IL has.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #18 December 11, 2003 Here's my capital punishment story... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #19 December 11, 2003 2 to one! NICE!!!!I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,397 #20 December 11, 2003 And I haven't seen anyone yet mention the Rolando Cruz case in IL where crooked cops conspired with crooked prosecuters to frame three innocent people in a CP case, even though they had evidence of the identity of the real perpetrator."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #21 December 11, 2003 QuoteAnd I haven't seen anyone yet mention the Rolando Cruz case in IL where crooked cops conspired with crooked prosecuters to frame three innocent people in a CP case, even though they had evidence of the identity of the real perpetrator. Some days chicken - Some days feathers . . .I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #22 December 11, 2003 QuoteAnd I haven't seen anyone yet mention the Rolando Cruz case in IL where crooked cops conspired with crooked prosecuters to frame three innocent people in a CP case, even though they had evidence of the identity of the real perpetrator. OK - I'll mention it. The Rolando Cruz case perfectly illustrates the faults in the system and the people who run it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #23 December 11, 2003 I'm against CP for many of the same reasons stated here already. As an alternative I'm for setting up a "Hard Labor Camp" in some place like Alaska and sending violent felons there instead of the death sentence. I would also change the law so that anyone sentenced to "Life with hard labor" would have no chance of parole. I would also require all available technology in DNA testing be required before imposing such a sentence. Once senteneced to the camp life would be very difficult. Long days spent at hard labor and it would be the goal of the camp and convicted felon to be self-supporting so as few of our tax dollars as possible are used to support such a place. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #24 December 11, 2003 Pro Death Penalty but.... I do not think a jury should be handing it out. I think a panel of judges should be making that call. I also think it should only be applied in CLEAR CUT cases such as Dahmer and Gacy and the likes of them.As stated in other posts to many people have later been exonerated so the Death pentaly should only be applied in absolute cases such as those mentioned above. I also think it should be a DEATH PENALTY. Case over take em out back and put a bullet in their brain.The punishment should fit the crime. I could go on and on about crime and punishment. Nothing about it makes any sense. Rehabilitaion is nonsense. It is punishment! Not sure how many people hear have done any time or know anyone who has done time, but I can tell you that after 2 years it is no longer a punishment.It becomes a sociallagical experiment and only breeds bigger,smarter and more hateful individuals who no longer fear being sent back. I can go on forever so I will shut up and say Yes I believe in an eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #25 December 11, 2003 I think the quote from the first LoTR from Gandalf regarding Gollum is a perfect summation of my view on it. It's along the lines of: Yes, some that live deserve death, but some who have died deserve life, can you give it to them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
