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swoopfly

AADless

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One scenario is low cutaway! if you had a low pull and malfunction, i was assuming if i cutaway at 1000ft,. My AAD may still activate lower than that if the speed is reached! However if no AAD and lowpull, i am going back into freefall waisting time to stabalize and activate my reserve.

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One scenario is low cutaway! if you had a low pull and malfunction, i was assuming if i cutaway at 1000ft,. My AAD may still activate lower than that if the speed is reached! However if no AAD and lowpull, i am going back into freefall waisting time to stabalize and activate my reserve.



if you're that low, fuck getting stable. still do not see how the rsl will help.

the rsl does not act as a pilot chute, more of a static line for your reserve. it just pulls the pin.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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If you cut away from a slow malfunction at 1000 feet you may well not accelerate to fast enough for your AAD to deploy your reserve.

Thrillstalker is right; they're tools for different emergency situations. Overlap is coincidental and low-likelihood.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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If you think cutting away low like that is a good reason to wear an rsl you should consider wearing one regardless of having an AAD.... assuming you can cut away at 1000 feet, reach expert AAD activation speed, (assuming that's what you have) and then counting on having a clean pilot chute launch, line stretch, and reserve deployment in the couple of hundred feet you have left, with time left over to avoid dangerous obstacles and maybe get a chance to flare....well... seems a tad optimistic to me.

At those altitudes you already don't really have an AAD, even if you do.
Owned by Remi #?

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>i was assuming if i cutaway at 1000ft,. My AAD may still activate lower than that if the
>speed is reached!

I can think of 3-4 people who assumed that who are now dead.

An RSL is a backup if you can't find/can't pull/don't want to pull your reserve handle after a low cutaway. It is not a replacement for an AAD; an AAD is not a replacement for an RSL. If you would use an RSL with an AAD, use one without it.

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One scenario is low cutaway! if you had a low pull and malfunction, i was assuming if i cutaway at 1000ft,. My AAD may still activate lower than that if the speed is reached! However if no AAD and lowpull, i am going back into freefall waisting time to stabalize and activate my reserve.



if you're that low, fuck getting stable. still do not see how the rsl will help.

the rsl does not act as a pilot chute, more of a static line for your reserve. it just pulls the pin.



I should add in that my left shoulder has suffered a dislocation before. If i ever found it dislocated on a skydive, i had peace of mind knowing my ADD will still fire if nothing is pulled. Or after a routine cutaway if my reserve arm was unusable.
But now that i dont have an ADD and if i found myself with a dislocated shoulder, on cutaway i would want my reserve pin pulled instantly after a cutaway instead of relying on what could be a dislocated arm thats dependent on my life!

maybe i should have added that in as it makes for different decisions for different reasons.

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maybe i should have added that in as it makes for different decisions for different reasons.



So then why don't you use an RSL on all skydives?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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There is no "reserve arm" that's why your reserve handle is on your main lift web where you can see it and reach it with either hand.

I'm guessing that you don't mean that if your life depended on it, you wouldn't at least try to make the 18 inch journey across your chest to deploy your reserved with your right hand. Right?
Owned by Remi #?

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maybe i should have added that in as it makes for different decisions for different reasons.



So then why don't you use an RSL on all skydives?



Its a weigh of options, I prefer the no rsl and cypres combination. Since i no longer have an ADD the pros now weigh out the cons to me of having an rsl. rsl's have been mis routed, snag hazards, points of entanglement! That risk is now worth it in the event of a cutaway that some type device will deploy my reserve if it is not pulled! i orginally counted on my cypres to fire if for whatever reason after a cutaway i was unable to pull the reserve.

Thrillstalker i think the correlation of these two separate and different back up devices is....After say a cutaway from 2500ft both these devices will deploy a reserve without you pulling any handle.
Now say a standard cutaway without either of these devices and it relies solely upon your reserve arm (or right arm as stated earlier)! Seeing as my reserve arm has had history of dislocation, it has been known by many others experience to have a dislocation reoccur.

So in that case i would rather have any device after a cutaway to get a reserve out than no backup device at all! Keep in mind both these devices can fail but i would take the chance over nothing being activated at all. All this is of course if i found myself with a dislocation in freefall!

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1- Avoid a low-pull malfunction by not pulling low.
2- If a cutaway at 1,000 feet or lower is necessary, it might become necessary to deploy a reserve without cutting the main away.
3- I lost the use of my left arm on a hard-opening/broken neck situation. The right arm works well for a reserve pull, especially with a large D-handle.
4- Although I do not have an RSL on my rig, I recommend them to others and will probably be adding one to my rig.
5- Ask some riggers. They will sometimes rent/loan you an AAD while yours is temporarily out.
6- Check to make sure your DZ will allow you to jump without an AAD. Don’t pretend and try to fool them.

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i orginally counted on my cypres to fire if for whatever reason after a cutaway i was unable to pull the reserve.

This is your first BIG mistake. You shouldn't be counting on your AAD to save your ass. it's there as a TOTAL last resort. You should be counting on saving your OWN ass! Big difference.

After say a cutaway from 2500ft both these devices will deploy a reserve without you pulling any handle.

This is your second BIG mistake. Both of these could/should deploy your reserve...only thing that will at lease open the container is YOU.

Now say a standard cutaway without either of these devices and it relies solely upon your reserve arm (or right arm as stated earlier)!


Third. You have two arms right? Why would you assume that your right arm is the only arm to deploy your reserve? I think it was pointed out to you earlier that your emergency handles are in front of you for a reason...so you can use either hand.

Its a weigh of options, I prefer the no rsl and cypres combination.


I'm not convinced that you know why you disconnect your rsl. Do you jump a highly loaded canopy? Do you jump a lot of camera gear? What are these options you are referring to? I don't jump an AAD, but I do jump an rsl; and I have had one reserve ride with it. It worked well and it beat me to my handle. I hear a lot of people say they disconnect their rsl; some of them have good rational...some don't. I think you fall in the latter.

What say you?


Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy.

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i orginally counted on my cypres to fire if for whatever reason after a cutaway i was unable to pull the reserve.

This is your first BIG mistake. You shouldn't be counting on your AAD to save your ass. it's there as a TOTAL last resort. You should be counting on saving your OWN ass! Big difference.

After say a cutaway from 2500ft both these devices will deploy a reserve without you pulling any handle.

This is your second BIG mistake. Both of these could/should deploy your reserve...only thing that will at lease open the container is YOU.

Now say a standard cutaway without either of these devices and it relies solely upon your reserve arm (or right arm as stated earlier)!


Third. You have two arms right? Why would you assume that your right arm is the only arm to deploy your reserve? I think it was pointed out to you earlier that your emergency handles are in front of you for a reason...so you can use either hand.

Its a weigh of options, I prefer the no rsl and cypres combination.


I'm not convinced that you know why you disconnect your rsl. Do you jump a highly loaded canopy? Do you jump a lot of camera gear? What are these options you are referring to? I don't jump an AAD, but I do jump an rsl; and I have had one reserve ride with it. It worked well and it beat me to my handle. I hear a lot of people say they disconnect their rsl; some of them have good rational...some don't. I think you fall in the latter.

What say you?



i thought i explained it well. I dont use an rsl because its something that can be routed wrong, its something that can snag on my camera gear, it something that can become an entanglement. I jump a katana loaded at 1.6-7, you can make your own determination if that is a high wingloading.

i dont have problem pulling my own reserve handle, i do have a problem missing gear that would make sure something gets out if i never pulled my reserve handle after a cutaway.

let me just put these scenarios out there

1... Cutaway from 2000ft with cypres and no rsl. lets say its a no pull on reserve(a reason could be dislocated left shoulder.)... Your cypres is set to fire if your still in freefall, so cypres should deploy reserve in this situation.

2. Cutaway from 2000ft with no cypres and rsl and no pull on reserve handle . RSL should pull reserve pin upon cutting away, deploying your reserve.

3. Cutaway from 2000 ft with NO cypres and NO rsl and no reserve pull (reason could be dislocated left shoulder). No device equals no reserve deployment which means your fucking dead.

Did i clear this up for you? i would rather either of the first two scenarios than the latter.

Seeing as i dont have the first scenario cypres, i am willing to take the risk of camera entanglement, snag factor, mis routed in case of a cutaway i have something pulling my reserve!

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3. Cutaway from 2000 ft with NO cypres and NO rsl and no reserve pull (reason could be dislocated left shoulder). No device equals no reserve deployment which means your fucking dead.



So you're conscious in this scenario, but unable to pull your reserve because you have a wonky shoulder, right?

Well, you have another arm that you are unwilling to use. You see a fatality because you can't be bothered to use your other hand?

I have a bit of advice for you:

Take up bowling. Soon.
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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Hell

i'd pull a reserve handle with MY TEETH!!!! if i HAD to..

if you have a functioning hand/ arm with which to Pull the cutaway Pad... then you have a functioning hand /arm with which to pull the reserve...:|

NOW if you're gonna Cut Away,,, and then go,,:o:S
Uh UH UH!!!!! fumble fumble... NOW what do i Do?????. B|:(>:( then sure better have Something to help you..
BUT NO One should be cutting away without Immediately!!! and i mean Right NOW, following it with a manually activated reserve deployment. It's one of the Basics of the sport...pulling handles.....AND doing it in the right sequence...:o

do it or stay on the ground...

This sport existed and even thrived.... waaay before AADs and RSLs.

also + 1 , regarding NOT starting MAin P C Deployment LOW.....that kinda thing will catch up to you sooner or later....
AAD or No AAD...

safety first.. and what the hell safety second too.
jmy
pops3935
4 stack 930

jt

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Did i clear this up for you? i would rather either of the first two scenarios than the latter.

Seeing as i dont have the first scenario cypres, i am willing to take the risk of camera entanglement, snag factor, mis routed in case of a cutaway i have something pulling my reserve!



yep...you cleared it up for me. nobody can tell you anything. have i captured the pertinent facts?
Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy.

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I dont use an rsl because its something that can be routed wrong



Im sorry for just quoting a smal part of your post like this, but i just dont understand this.

Are you saying that you dont do gearchecks at all?
Because if you are making gearchecks this should not be a problem (i know there has been incidents, dont need to name them).

To say that you are not using gear that can be misrouted does not make sense.
What about your main bridle? It can be misrouted.
Your cutaway cable can be misrouted.
Your AAD could be improperly installed.
Your rigger could have misrouted the lines on your reserve.

I agree with you on the entanglement, but i dont agree with you to disconnect the RSL because it can be routed wrong

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I'm trying to sort out your point of view and am still having a really hard time wrapping my head around it:

You don't use an RSL in general because they have a minimal snag / entanglement possibility,

But...

Because you consider the risk of losing the use of both of your arms a reasonable concern due to health / fitness issues, you feel that having either an RSL or and AAD is important....

Let me try to get this another way:

You won't risk putting a little piece of nylon lanyard with a snap shackle on the end of it on your rig because it might fail....

But... you don't have a problem taking 2 arms that you don't trust into freefall as long as you have either an RSL (that you don't really trust) or an AAD that might help you if you cutaway low and can't pull with either of your defective arms... except that's not such a good idea...

Suggested reading here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4068945;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Am I getting this?

Please reconsider some of this.
Owned by Remi #?

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Instead of trying to weave yourself a reality where your odd choices make sense, take a look at this reality where your odd choices would have you dead all of the time you were not 'ADDless' -

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4068945;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

There's a chance, and a pretty good one at that, that if you get several people telling you you're coming at this thing the wrong way, that you are. Compare that to the number of people who agree with your backwards logic, and see what you end up with.

Edit - Kelly beat me to the link, but my statement still stands. Point goes to kellyO

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RSL and AAD is a backup.... Nothing more.

They are *seperate* devices. While they CAN help in some of the same situations.... They are not replacements for each other.

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One scenario is low cutaway! if you had a low pull and malfunction, i was assuming if i cutaway at 1000ft,. My AAD may still activate lower than that if the speed is reached! However if no AAD and lowpull, i am going back into freefall waisting time to stabalize and activate my reserve.



1. An AAD may not fire if you are below 1k.

2. Being below 1k with a mal means you have screwed up already. SIM states you are supposed to deal with a mal by 1800 feet.

3. If you are below 1800 feet.... Do not try to get stable before you pull. People have died at line stretch plenty of times "trying to get stable".

Quote

I should add in that my left shoulder has suffered a dislocation before. If i ever found it dislocated on a skydive, i had peace of mind knowing my ADD will still fire if nothing is pulled. Or after a routine cutaway if my reserve arm was unusable.



Then maybe you should have an RSL ALL the time.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I dont use an rsl because its something that can be routed wrong



Im sorry for just quoting a smal part of your post like this, but i just dont understand this.

Are you saying that you dont do gearchecks at all?
Because if you are making gearchecks this should not be a problem (i know there has been incidents, dont need to name them).

To say that you are not using gear that can be misrouted does not make sense.
What about your main bridle? It can be misrouted.
Your cutaway cable can be misrouted.
Your AAD could be improperly installed.
Your rigger could have misrouted the lines on your reserve.

I agree with you on the entanglement, but i dont agree with you to disconnect the RSL because it can be routed wrong



Im not saying that removal of an rsl should be done just on the fact alone that it can be misrouted. I am saying that simplier is sometimes easier and adding any gear to your rig also adds unforseen scenarios.
If you dont know what i mean by mis routed rsl i ask you to do a search here in dropzone dot com. IN fact here are a few post and maybe you can clear them up for me as i dont understand them seeing as you say a simple gear check is all that was in order for the misrouted rsl!

- The reason the RSL caused a malfunction was because a dumb ass rigger mis-routed it!

- The RSL was misrouted by the rigger that packed the reserve and was packed in a way that it locked the main to the container unless the RSL was disconnected.

- Many different riggers had packed this rig and every rigger had a different opinion of how this rsl should be routed

Why is the blame being put on a rigger here?? Do people with 4 times my jump numbers not perform gear checks?

While all these could have been preventable, i think if i was coming up with a cons section of using an rsl , mis routing would be a qualified statement. After all i dont think i am any better than anyone that this HAS happened to!

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I'm trying to sort out your point of view and am still having a really hard time wrapping my head around it:

You don't use an RSL in general because they have a minimal snag / entanglement possibility,

But...

Because you consider the risk of losing the use of both of your arms a reasonable concern due to health / fitness issues, you feel that having either an RSL or and AAD is important....

Let me try to get this another way:

You won't risk putting a little piece of nylon lanyard with a snap shackle on the end of it on your rig because it might fail....

But... you don't have a problem taking 2 arms that you don't trust into freefall as long as you have either an RSL (that you don't really trust) or an AAD that might help you if you cutaway low and can't pull with either of your defective arms... except that's not such a good idea...

Suggested reading here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4068945;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Am I getting this?

Please reconsider some of this.




If i didnt trust my arms i would not be skydiving. This is called thinking ahead, planning for the worst case scenario. If we didn't plan for these things, why would we even need an ADD or RSL? do you plan on skydiving unconcious? probably not, but if you ever found yourself in that situation would you like a plan B? if your smart , probably. here is another report as i see you tried to use one to point out an idea (by the way did they ever find if the ADD wwas actually on, and was it a cutaway from 1000ft or 300?).
Since everyone here claims oh just use your other arm its that simple, well let me put this report out there and its things like these that make me have a plan B.

The jumper opened his canopy after videoing a tandem skydive at about 3500ft - 3000ft. Due to a long spot, he did not release his breaks immediately, but left them set and flew back closer to the DZ, perhaps with the additional aid of the rear risers. During this time, the jumper reconfigured his harness and camera-jacket by opening up the chest strap, and releasing his camera-jacket wings at the lower attachment. At some point, the jumper released his main breaks and discovered that the right break line had a solid tension knot just below the cat-eye. Somewhere around 2000ft, the jumper elected to cutaway. It is suspected that the jumper was correcting the resulting right hand turn with the left control line just prior to cutting away, and as a result did not have the reserve handle in his hand.

Why was this a fatality? 2000ft dosent seem to low to uhh fumble fumble where the handle? why did he just use his other hand as someone so easily mentioned in this thread? Did someone with 5 times my jump numbers not come up with this theory? after all thats why they put the reserve handle on the main lift web right?

Do you think and RSL or ADD would have made a difference in the report? the skydiver had niether!

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Why was this a fatality? 2000ft dosent seem to low to uhh fumble fumble where the handle? why did he just use his other hand as someone so easily mentioned in this thread? Did someone with 5 times my jump numbers not come up with this theory? after all thats why they put the reserve handle on the main lift web right?

Do you think and RSL or ADD would have made a difference in the report? the skydiver had niether!



This is a different scenario than you presented. This incident involved a missing/obscured/entangled handle. I don't know what happened, but I would bet my eye-teeth this jumper used both hands to try to find the missing handle. An RSL or AAD might have prevented that fatality.

You said your left arm is unreliable and you will wait for your AAD to fire. You didn't say anything about being unconscious - you said you would just wait for your AAD to fire.

That's a completely different kettle of fish - or lane of pins. :|
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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