Walking bag vs. dragging container

[Airviking 0]

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Hey Viking, No one has yet extolled the virtue of drag packing rounds.............Always preceded by "scuse me miss, could you stand tension for me?"Great way to meet girls................

Yeah, I noticed them funny-looking parachutes that seem to be popular nowadays. They look like friggin matresses! (Yeah, like that'll work...)


And they pack different too.

Chicks dig my Paracommander.

I believe you have my stapler.

[airtwardo 6]

Just get a frap-strap and free pack!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

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Just get a frap-strap and free pack!

4 line it pull down the sleeve and close it up.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[millertime24 8]

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Just get a frap-strap and free pack!

4 line it pull down the sleeve and close it up.

Sparky

Mybe I'm showing your age here, but what's a "sleeve" as it relates to skydiving gear?

Muff #5048

[airtwardo 6]

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Just get a frap-strap and free pack!

4 line it pull down the sleeve and close it up.

Sparky

Mybe I'm showing your age here, but what's a "sleeve" as it relates to skydiving gear?

It's a D-bag only longer and with no corners.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[millertime24 8]

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Just get a frap-strap and free pack!

4 line it pull down the sleeve and close it up.

Sparky

Mybe I'm showing your age here, but what's a "sleeve" as it relates to skydiving gear?

It's a D-bag only longer and with no corners.

I dont get it. Why not just fold the canopy and shove it in a d-bag then stow the lines accordingly?

Muff #5048

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi millertime,

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what's a "sleeve" as it relates to skydiving gear?

Try to find the video, that has been posted here a number of times, showing Raquel Welch packing a round parachute.

When you find it, try not to concentrate on her butt and you just might see a sleeve.

JerryBaumchen

[millertime24 8]

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Hi millertime,

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what's a "sleeve" as it relates to skydiving gear?

Try to find the video, that has been posted here a number of times, showing Raquel Welch packing a round parachute.

When you find it, try not to concentrate on her butt and you just might see a sleeve.

JerryBaumchen

Thanks Jerry. Found the vid. Could you fold one of those canopies into a regular d-bag with a standard pilot chute? Just seems easier.

Muff #5048

[mjosparky 3]

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Hi millertime,

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what's a "sleeve" as it relates to skydiving gear?

Try to find the video, that has been posted here a number of times, showing Raquel Welch packing a round parachute.

When you find it, try not to concentrate on her butt and you just might see a sleeve.

JerryBaumchen

Thanks Jerry. Found the vid. Could you fold one of those canopies into a regular d-bag with a standard pilot chute? Just seems easier.

Sure you can. You can pack a round in a bad, pod, sleeve or even use a diaper. You can even pack into the container without using any of the above. You can do the same with a ram air canopy. The choice has a lot to do with the application the system is intended for.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[popsjumper 2]

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. Back in "the good old days", skydiving was entirely an outdoor activity. After you landed, you packed outside,....

I sort of remember something about going inside and packing on a table....

...and girl friends made great anchors.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[airtwardo 6]

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. Back in "the good old days", skydiving was entirely an outdoor activity. After you landed, you packed outside,....

I sort of remember something about going inside and packing on a table....

...and girl friends made great anchors.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=25076; YUP!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Scrumpot 1]

For the "search impaired"...

How to pack a sleeved-canopy in 2.5 minutes

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[councilman24 36]

Still a classic. I always play hopscotch with my lines!

And, it's the same rig as my first rig that in the next room!

Back when they actually listened to the skydiving technical advisor.

Has anyone actually seen this movie?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Terry,

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Has anyone actually seen this movie?

Yes. But then again, Raquel & I are the same age.

JerryBaumchen

[councilman24 36]

So, is this movie as much about skydiving as the intro scene implies?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 558]

Who said anything about cleaning the rig.
You are supposed to clean the FLOOR with your rig!
Hah!
Hah!

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Terry,

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So, is this movie as much about skydiving as the intro scene implies?

So, 43 yrs later you want me to remember something?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061653/plotsummary

JerryBaumchen

PS) Probably about as much skydiving as any Hollywood blockbuster. It's all about Raquel.

[kimemerson 7]

I walk the bag as it's between my knees. I remember learning to drag the container (when flat packing was still what most everyone did) but I also remember thinking the walking method simply looked cooler. And of course, cool is a huge player.
Walking the bag doesn't impinge on the ability to keep lines taut or straight. That's a matter of discipline. That said, dragging the container usually involves pulling everything closer to you so that between the pulling and the finish of the stowing, those lines are probably a little slack and it is with the hands that you'd have to milk down the excess to get the lines taut. Whereas with the walking method those lines stay right where you put them and stay taut throughout the stowing process. And I'm never actually sitting so I don't really have to get back up.

And as you recall the ease with which you flat packed, remember these two things: 1) It's always easy when you know how. And 2) PRO packing is an acronym for Proper Ram-air Orientation. Flat packing builds in the automatic 90° off heading opening. Probably not an issue with four place Cessnas, "back in the day".

[kellja2001 0]

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PRO packing is an acronym for Proper Ram-air Orientation. Flat packing builds in the automatic 90° off heading opening.

As I understand it, it depends on who (e.g. which manufacturer) you talk to

I've heard "Preferred Ram-Air Opening", "Proper", "Professional", "Pretty Random Opening" to name a few...


And I'm not entirely convinced by the flat packing 90 degree off-heading either. I have a feeling that's a rumor... I'm sure someone who knows, rather than guesses will interject...

[Low Experience]

[kimemerson 7]

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PRO packing is an acronym for Proper Ram-air Orientation. Flat packing builds in the automatic 90° off heading opening.

As I understand it, it depends on who (e.g. which manufacturer) you talk to

I've heard "Preferred Ram-Air Opening", "Proper", "Professional", "Pretty Random Opening" to name a few...


And I'm not entirely convinced by the flat packing 90 degree off-heading either. I have a feeling that's a rumor... I'm sure someone who knows, rather than guesses will interject...

[Low Experience]

Well, legend (myth?) has it that Billy Weber coined the term. Billy will confirm this for you too. As a friend of Billy's and having heard the tale many, many times, I'm sticking with Proper Ram-air Orientation. The others you suggest are just random stabs in the dark and are, essentially, incorrect. Trust me on this one. You could win a bet calling it Proper Ram-air Orientation.

As for the 90° "rumor", I don't mind getting a second opinion, but I also think I can be one of the "someone who knows, rather than guesses" people, having packed and jumped a ton of flat packed canopies.
And just to drop my credentials, please note my 21 years to your 3. I was a full time packer in DeLand for years back when many, many DZs still had not even heard of packers, were still mostly flat packing, and when DeLand was still in the forefront of PRO packing, when the manufacturers still had flat packing in their owner's manuals. Any "rumor" should have been debunked by this time, I would presume.

[Beatnik 2]

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Flat packing builds in the automatic 90° off heading opening.

I would love to have this one explained in detail how it produces a 90° off heading opening.

I think this is a myth that comes from people that have a spatial understanding of what is happening with flat packing. The parachute may start on its side but it is stacked from front to back and put into a bag like that. This is like saying side packing a round is producing off heading openings, even though it is orientated the correct way. I could see how people could say roll packing (not talking about psycho packing here) would produce an off-heading opening because you are putting it in the bag and deploying it 90° off heading.

[peek 20]

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Flat packing builds in the automatic 90° off heading opening.

Kim, you left something out. What kind of "flat pack"?

I have heard that term tossed around so much that I created a web page where it is explained: http://www.pcprg.com/packing.htm (The pictures suck, I should update those.)

When we say "flat pack" I think most people assume a "roll pack", and it seems like the only people that do a "stack pack" now are people with accuracy jumpers. So few people are familiar with it, and I think a lot of people forget about it.

By the way, I have a couple thousand jumps on a highly loaded Stiletto which is "stack packed". I don't recall ever having line twists and it has opened off heading (20-30 degrees) only a few times.

[kimemerson 7]

I don't think I've heard either term "roll" or "stack" pack. Or if I have, not enough to register. I am referring to the flat pack as the one where the nose is to one side, turned 90° off from the direction the container would be flying, if it were flying. Then the tail & stabilizers are all flaked and laid on top of the nose. As far as I recall, there is no moment when the nose is actually facing the same direction as the container. In fact, even the tail is oriented the same 90° off what the nose is. And though the lines too are crossing over each other on that same 90°, it is the air inflating the nose while it is situated off the heading the skydiver is on at deployment that causes the off heading opening.

So what causes an on heading opening in this scenario? I don't know but if you or Beatnik would let us know I know I for one would be thankful. Maybe not a case of beer thankful. But thankful.

[peek 20]

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I don't think I've heard either term "roll" or "stack" pack. Or if I have, not enough to register. I am referring to the flat pack as the one where the nose is to one side, turned 90° off from the direction the container would be flying, if it were flying. Then the tail & stabilizers are all flaked and laid on top of the nose.

Do either of the pack jobs on that web page look like what you are talking about?

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As far as I recall, there is no moment when the nose is actually facing the same direction as the container. ... So what causes an on heading opening in this scenario?

One of the things that happens, (and this is more obvious on larger parachutes where the folds of the nose show from underneath the stack), is that while wrapping the tail around the stack (mummying the canopy), the nose gets rolled under somewhat to face down (oriented with the container). That is one explanation.

Another is that our bodies have much more mass than the parachute. So the parachute tends to turn into the direction of our body (the greater mass) rather than the other way around.

We all tend to think of a parachute opening and flying the direction the nose is facing, but I don't think that is true all that often.

Some years ago I borrowed a friend's rig that I know was roll packed. (I am always hyper-sensitive to what is going on when I borrow a rig.) I looked up very quickly and saw the entire unfolding process. The two sides unrolled and it turned to face the direction of my body. I was amazed. I had never seen that before, and I was sure I was going to get a line twist.

I have another friend who roll packs exclusively, and I'm surprised how often his openings are perfectly on heading. (He does video of all of his static line students so we have seen many hundreds of his openings on video.)

[Beatnik 2]

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As far as I recall, there is no moment when the nose is actually facing the same direction as the container.

The nose openings don't need to be facing in the same direction of the container and you would really be hard pressed to find a packjob that it is like that. Even with a PRO pack where we orientate it that way, once we put it on the ground get the air out of it, the nose has moved around. Another example is with reserve packing. Most reserve packjobs have only the centre cell facing in the same direction as the container and the other six are facing to the left and right. With a flat pack the parachute is stacked from front to back and placed in the bag. The direction of the folds or the way the material isn't going to affect the opening as much as that will.

With a ram-air the parachute doesn't automatically start inflating once released from the bag. It will start to cup air slightly before inflating. We set the brakes to do this. If you want a long opening, don't set the brakes and you will see how long it takes before it opens. The parachute is configured on the risers to fly in a certain way. In addition to that there is a lot of momentum from a body in free fall deploying or from a body coming off a plane.

While I think that all contributes to the parachutes opening in the intended direction, I think the parachutes themselves also attribute to the openings. Most of the parachutes that are flat packed are larger or more docile, not all but most. They are not as sensitive to the distribution of the parachute during inflation. Smaller parachute, especially those with shorter lines, tend to be a lot more sensitive to those sorts of things. I haven't done any first hand experiments with crossbraced canopies and flat packing but have been told that Velocities do not respond well to being flat packed. This is coming from a person that jumped a higher loaded Stiletto and flat packed it all the time with high success.

I have had various experiences with roll packing and haven't had real consistent openings. But this has been on various parachute models and sizes and nothing that could be used for real data. To gather real data so many factors would have to be included and I would suspect that the end results would be the same. Personally I am still skeptical about roll packing even taking in Peek's comments about his experiences and think more openings and parachutes would have to be examined than the many student openings cited and the assumed student style canopies.

Not sure if I explained everything here or contributed to the answer that was already given. This is really not a simple question to answer and there are many variables to consider and explain to answer it properly. More information can be provided if required.