Recommended Posts
QuoteDude I dont even use WLO toggles for slider up BASE jumping. If I see someone with giant WLOs hooked up to they're skydiving rig, I would laugh in their face. Are you scared of cutting away or something?
Yes, I am afraid of cutting away. Right now, if I were to have a line over, I would use my hook knife to cut it just above the toggle and land with rear risers.
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
..."Quote"... Exactly my point. Why go to EPs when you could just cut the line?
....................................................................................
... because most of the people - tried this under controlled conditions - got spun up so badly they could not SEE which line was tangled, much less cut it.
I was speaking specificly of a control line over...
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
jakee 1,255
Quote..."Quote"... Exactly my point. Why go to EPs when you could just cut the line?
....................................................................................
... because most of the people - tried this under controlled conditions - got spun up so badly they could not SEE which line was tangled, much less cut it.
I was speaking specificly of a control line over...
How do you know?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
QuoteQuote..."Quote"... Exactly my point. Why go to EPs when you could just cut the line?
....................................................................................
... because most of the people - tried this under controlled conditions - got spun up so badly they could not SEE which line was tangled, much less cut it.
I was speaking specificly of a control line over...
How do you know?
Are you asking how I would know if it was a control line over? If so, I guess I wouldn't in a line twist situation.
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
riggerrob 558
"
......................................................................................
Agreed!
The British Army Parachute Association (and sub-contractors) has had excellent results with slider-gates. Their incidence of line burns across the tail is insignificant.
A slider-gate is a small piece of tape sewn to the trailing edge of the slider.
A half-width rubber band is looped onto the slider-gate and all the steering lines are trapped in the rubber band just before the tail is wrapped around the canopy.
I doubt if the rubber band has much practical function, but it does force young soldiers to focus on keeping steering lines center rear.
..."Quote... As rare as lineovers occur, it's simply not worth the struggle. If you really are that paranoid about them, the one trick you can bring in is a tailgate, or a slidergate. It's a preventative measure, rather than a post-occurrence solution, and it's many times more elegant.
......................................................................................
Agreed!
The British Army Parachute Association (and sub-contractors) has had excellent results with slider-gates. Their incidence of line burns across the tail is insignificant.
A slider-gate is a small piece of tape sewn to the trailing edge of the slider.
A half-width rubber band is looped onto the slider-gate and all the steering lines are trapped in the rubber band just before the tail is wrapped around the canopy.
I doubt if the rubber band has much practical function, but it does force young soldiers to focus on keeping steering lines center rear.
QuoteQuoteDude I dont even use WLO toggles for slider up BASE jumping. If I see someone with giant WLOs hooked up to they're skydiving rig, I would laugh in their face. Are you scared of cutting away or something?
Yes, I am afraid of cutting away. Right now, if I were to have a line over, I would use my hook knife to cut it just above the toggle and land with rear risers.
Do you have any idea how a canopy flies with no pressure on the tail? I have seen people hurt themselves very badly landing canopies ranging from 240sq ft to 303 sq ft on their rear risers due to losing a toggle or both..I took a water landing once when i lost a toggle and it hurt like hell!!..Try to do that on a 150 and i guarantee you wont be walking back to the packing mat! Guarantee!!! Are you also willing to risk breaking your back and legs just because you didnt want to spend 60 bucks on a reserve repack? Have fun buying a new line set which will cost you a few hundred bucks at the end of the whole deal!!!!!
QuoteQuoteQuoteDude I dont even use WLO toggles for slider up BASE jumping. If I see someone with giant WLOs hooked up to they're skydiving rig, I would laugh in their face. Are you scared of cutting away or something?
Yes, I am afraid of cutting away. Right now, if I were to have a line over, I would use my hook knife to cut it just above the toggle and land with rear risers.
Do you have any idea how a canopy flies with no pressure on the tail? I have seen people hurt themselves very badly landing canopies ranging from 240sq ft to 303 sq ft on their rear risers due to losing a toggle or both....Try to do that on a 150 and i guarantee you wont be walking back to the packing mat! Guarantee!!! Are you willing to risk breaking your back and legs just because you didnt want to spend 60 bucks on a reserve repack? Have fun buying a new line set which will cost you a few hundred bucks at the end of the whole deal!
That doesn't sound like fun...
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
Beatnik 2
QuoteDo you have any idea how a canopy flies with no pressure on the tail? I have seen people hurt themselves very badly landing canopies ranging from 240sq ft to 303 sq ft on their rear risers due to losing a toggle or both..I took a water landing once when i lost a toggle and it hurt like hell!!..Try to do that on a 150 and i guarantee you wont be walking back to the packing mat! Guarantee!!! Are you also willing to risk breaking your back and legs just because you didnt want to spend 60 bucks on a reserve repack? Have fun buying a new line set which will cost you a few hundred bucks at the end of the whole deal!!!!!
I don't know how accurate the rear riser landing statements you made are. I have about 100 rear riser landings on various canopies (135 - 288) in different situations and I have always walked backed no problem. It is a different type of flare and you need to know what you are doing to have it go off properly.
To the OP, a repack is going to cost less than replacing a cut brake line plus it is better to cutaway for safety. There is a possibility that the line can tangle with other lines. It is not likely but it could happen. At that point it could be too low to cutaway.
I never did understand why some people are scared to use their reserves. That is what it is there for in case shit happens. Your theory of cutting the brake line above the toggle can be easier said than done in reality.
QuoteQuoteDo you have any idea how a canopy flies with no pressure on the tail? I have seen people hurt themselves very badly landing canopies ranging from 240sq ft to 303 sq ft on their rear risers due to losing a toggle or both..I took a water landing once when i lost a toggle and it hurt like hell!!..Try to do that on a 150 and i guarantee you wont be walking back to the packing mat! Guarantee!!! Are you also willing to risk breaking your back and legs just because you didnt want to spend 60 bucks on a reserve repack? Have fun buying a new line set which will cost you a few hundred bucks at the end of the whole deal!!!!!
I don't know how accurate the rear riser landing statements you made are. I have about 100 rear riser landings on various canopies (135 - 288) in different situations and I have always walked backed no problem. It is a different type of flare and you need to know what you are doing to have it go off properly.
To the OP, a repack is going to cost less than replacing a cut brake line plus it is better to cutaway for safety. There is a possibility that the line can tangle with other lines. It is not likely but it could happen. At that point it could be too low to cutaway.
I never did understand why some people are scared to use their reserves. That is what it is there for in case shit happens. Your theory of cutting the brake line above the toggle can be easier said than done in reality.
Thanks for the info
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
Travman 6
I've seen far to many incident reports that read
When there is a perfectly good canopy sitting on your back, you don't want to spend the rest of your life doing rigging in the air.
Quote
"jumper attempted to clear the malfunction until impact, no attempt was made to cutaway"
When there is a perfectly good canopy sitting on your back, you don't want to spend the rest of your life doing rigging in the air.
QuoteI don't know how accurate the rear riser landing statements you made are. I have about 100 rear riser landings on various canopies (135 - 288) in different situations and I have always walked backed no problem. It is a different type of flare and you need to know what you are doing to have it go off properly.
You're misunderstanding what he was saying. He's not talking about a standard rear riser landing, he's talking about a rear riser landing when there is no load on the tail from the steering lines, as if you cut them to clear a line over.
He mentions canopies between 240 and 303sq ft, so my guess is he's talking about BASE canopies, where you can throw the toggles in the event of a line over (the steering lines are not routed through the guide ring). This is the configuration the OP wants to use on his skydivign canopy so he can clear a line over without cutting away or using a hook knife.
The difference is that when you use your rears on an otherwise intact canopy, the steering line still hold the tail in place, and since the toggle is againt the guide ring, and the guide ring is attached to the riser, pulling down the riser also pulls down the toggle an equal amount, maintaining pressure on the tail, and keeping it in place.
When you throw the toggles, and the steering lines are not through the guide ring, there is nothing holding the tail in place. In level flight it may just casue a flutter, but when you pull the rears, you're only pulling the portion of the canopy from mid-chord to the D line attachmnet points. Everything aft of the D lines, like the tail, isn't supporting any weight or creating any lift nor aerodynamic braking, like when you flare with toggles or rears with attached steering lines.
Canopies properly configured for skydiving can be easily flared with the rear risers, provided the jumper practices up high, and becomes familair with the rear riser stall-point (it can be touchy).
As for the OP, he's seems hell-bent on using throw-over toggles on his skydiving main canopy, despite advice to the contrary from both riggers and BASE jumpers.
Not surprisingly, this jumper also claims the in the event of a line over when jumping with conventional toggles, his EP is to extract his hook knife and simply cut the offending line, so I suppose the situation with the BASE toggle set-up isn't all that surprising.
QuoteQuoteDo you have any idea how a canopy flies with no pressure on the tail? I have seen people hurt themselves very badly landing canopies ranging from 240sq ft to 303 sq ft on their rear risers due to losing a toggle or both..I took a water landing once when i lost a toggle and it hurt like hell!!..Try to do that on a 150 and i guarantee you wont be walking back to the packing mat! Guarantee!!! Are you also willing to risk breaking your back and legs just because you didnt want to spend 60 bucks on a reserve repack? Have fun buying a new line set which will cost you a few hundred bucks at the end of the whole deal!!!!!
I don't know how accurate the rear riser landing statements you made are. I have about 100 rear riser landings on various canopies (135 - 288) in different situations and I have always walked backed no problem. It is a different type of flare and you need to know what you are doing to have it go off properly.
To the OP, a repack is going to cost less than replacing a cut brake line plus it is better to cutaway for safety. There is a possibility that the line can tangle with other lines. It is not likely but it could happen. At that point it could be too low to cutaway.
I never did understand why some people are scared to use their reserves. That is what it is there for in case shit happens. Your theory of cutting the brake line above the toggle can be easier said than done in reality.
Have you ever landed a canopy on rear risers when the steering lines have been completely disconected? The whole back part of the canopy is completely worthless.
There is a HUGE difference landing a parachute on rears, and doing it without the rear portion of the canopy.
I agree with the rest of your post about being scared to cut away though.
Edit: Lepka beat me to it (with a much better explanation) Except the OP isnt talking about routing his steering line outside the guide ring (LRT), he is talking about routing through the guidering, and using a special toggle that you can jetteson if you need to. Many BASE jumpers use them for slider up jumps, where the steering line is routed through the slider and the guide ring.
If anyone is curious what the OP is talking about:
http://www.apexbase.com/product.php?product_id=134
BASE 1384
QuoteLepka beat me to it (with a much better explanation) Except the OP isnt talking about routing his steering line outside the guide ring (LRT), he is talking about routing through the guidering, and using a special toggle that you can jetteson if you need to
Of course he is. For the purpose of this discussion, and speaking to people who I know are skydivers but might not be BASE jumpers, the in/out of the guidering description is the quickest/easiest to explain.
Now if the OP was really talking about routing the steering lines outside of the guidering I would have busted him on the fact that once he unstowed his brakes he woud not be able to let go of the toggles without losing them. Of course, he's not talking about that, and I didn't mention the other thing.
Right on. Either way it is retarded!
To Keith: Don't be afraid of your reserve!
To Keith: Don't be afraid of your reserve!
BASE 1384
Quote
As for the OP, he's seems hell-bent on using throw-over toggles on his skydiving main canopy, despite advice to the contrary from both riggers and BASE jumpers.
Not surprisingly, this jumper also claims the in the event of a line over when jumping with conventional toggles, his EP is to extract his hook knife and simply cut the offending line, so I suppose the situation with the BASE toggle set-up isn't all that surprising.
I'm certainly not hell bent. I started this thread to gather info from those more knowledgable than myself about the possibility of using WLO toggles.
However, after reading the responses (yours particularly being the most clear explanation of why not to use them) not only have I abandoned the idea, but I also changed my EPs to simply cutaway instead of messing with the hook knife.
Thanks guys.
Blue skies,
Keith Medlock
Keith Medlock
QuoteTo Keith: Don't be afraid of your reserve!
No, be afraid of your thought process, it's leading you down several dangerous paths.
koppel 3
There is a difference between landing a canopy on rear risers with some tension on the tail through the steering lines and landing a canopy on rear risers with a broken or cut steering line.
When the line is broken or cut there is a massive spillage of air and the most memorable one I have seen was on a 200sqf canopy by an Instructor with 8,000+ jumps who does a landing roll on just about every landing who swore never to land that configuration again as it nearly broke both his legs. Someone with less experience in landing rolls probably would have got broken.
When the line is broken or cut there is a massive spillage of air and the most memorable one I have seen was on a 200sqf canopy by an Instructor with 8,000+ jumps who does a landing roll on just about every landing who swore never to land that configuration again as it nearly broke both his legs. Someone with less experience in landing rolls probably would have got broken.
I like my canopy...
...it lets me down.
...it lets me down.
Beatnik 2
I have landed with no steering lines connected. Yes it does make a difference but you can still do it and you can do it safely if you know what you are doing. Being tall I have an advantage of pulling more down.
Like I said I have done it in different situations and I have never had a problem.
Like I said I have done it in different situations and I have never had a problem.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites