Have you been surprised? (serious question)

[newsstand 0]

As another low jump numberer (numbering?) I would have to agree that safety and training answers really should be from far more experienced jumpers but in other locations like General Skydiving Discussion and here in The Bonfire I can see how these responses would be valid. Lets face it, who has a better idea of what an AFF5 feels like, someone with 1000 jumps or someone with 10? The advice can be completly valid too as they know what worked for them to solve the problems the poster may be describing. The problem comes when people try to answer problems they really have no experience with because they have read other answers to the same problem here.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[nightjumps 1]

Still vying for that "Instructor's Forum" Bro?

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Still vying for that "Instructor's Forum" Bro?

Yeah, but that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about me frustrated at very inexperienced jumpers giving technical advice on training. We're talking sub 20 jump jumpers.

Before this I would sometimes view profiles, especially if someone was saying something that I hadn't heard before or something that isn't quite as accepted. Now its staring me in the face and it becomes frustrating when I see (what I would consider, as I'm sure others would to) basically incorrect advice from a low jump jumper.

i.e. Someone saying that the only reason why DZs push the tandem progression is it makes them more money.

That's the biggest line of bullshit I've heard in a very long time!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

I wasn't thinking about things like that, what was brought to mind was some recent posts about tandem ISP vs. traditional AFF where folks with only a few jumps were trying to tell someone else that they should do X "because its a better program" and shit like that.

That's what really got me thinking.

I haven't seen that thread, so I guess my answer would be "no". But I'll give you my opinion if you want it.....

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

Yeah, but that isn't what this thread is about. This thread is about me frustrated at very inexperienced jumpers giving technical advice on training. We're talking sub 20 jump jumpers.

Well, AD - you will continue to be frustrated, Unfortunately, it happens not only here, but the DZ as well. Enthusiasm converts to experience for the low man on the totem pole. Somehow, the mind converts 15 jumps as fifteen times the experience as someone with one jump and their enthusiasm to share an experience becomes advice.

Best all can do on here or at the DZ is to ask those who are not Instructors to not act like one and to train students to ask someone giving them advice if they have their Coach or Instructor's rating

Quote

i.e. Someone saying that the only reason why DZs push the tandem progression is it makes them more money. That's the biggest line of bullshit I've heard in a very long time!

Well, if they knew shit from a good grade of peanut butter, they would know the true money-maker is static-line/IAD.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions Dave, personally speaking, I'll take advice wherever I can get it.What I subsequently do with that advice or input is entirely up to me.
From what I've seen, the forums tend to be pretty well self regulating, poor advice is often challenged or corrected pretty quickly, In addition to this, if you watch forums for a wee while, it quickly transpires who is giving sound advice, and people can judge for themselves who is solid and who is shaky.

I'd much rather have this freedom to harvest experience and opinion from round the world, than to suppress input from people with relatively low numbers.

It may be that people have had experience of tandems from a students point of view that I have never had, for example, I've never been strapped to the front so even a one jump wonder has more experience of that aspect than I have.
How much faith I have in that person's opinion over say a TMI's opinion is then up to me to determine.
In your case in point, it could be that tandems at particular DZs have no part in any formal progression, and could be seen as a carnival ride, which is my experience at a lot of European DZs.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[bbarnhouse 0]

Just food for thought here...
Lets say someone has 400 jumps with 300 of those done in the last 2 months. 170 of those coaching jumps with one of the top flyers in the world. It isn't always about jump numbers, but also about the quality of those jumps. There is something to be learned from every skydiver. One just has to be open to it.
B~Squared

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"There is something to be learned from every skydiver."

Yes, yes, my point exactly Betsy, I knew there was a good reason why I liked you.
In a similar vein, I know S/L instructors with 2,000 or so jumps, the majority of those being hopnpops from 3-5000 ft.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[sdgregory 0]

Quote

Well, AD - you will continue to be frustrated, Unfortunately, it happens not only here, but the DZ as well. Enthusiasm converts to experience for the low man on the totem pole. Somehow, the mind converts 15 jumps as fifteen times the experience as someone with one jump and their enthusiasm to share an experience becomes advice.

I can see this happening. I am always afraid that my enthusiasm will come across as advice when I am talking to people, especially those newer than me.

When someone with less jumps than me asks me (as happened this weekend) for advice, I tell them who on the dropzone they should talk to. I am learning slowly who is the best to ask about certain disciplines and I send the person best qualified and if I am unsure who to send them to, I send them to the DZO. I make it very clear that I am unqualified to give the advice they are looking for.

Now if they ask me about landing pattern or what a breaked turn is or something simple like that, I answer their question because that is something I learned. I see no harm there.

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

Now if they ask me about landing pattern or what a breaked turn is or something simple like that, I answer their question because that is something I learned. I see no harm there.

I do. Ever been on a radio and a student does something at 200' that's not part of the canopy flow plan cause someone "shared?"

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

i.e. Someone saying that the only reason why DZs push the tandem progression is it makes them more money.

That's the biggest line of bullshit I've heard in a very long time!

Wow I struck a nerve! Well, I have a couple more than 20 jumps, and I've been jumping (slowly) since 1998. And I still believe that... to a point. Your DZ may be different than most (or many). But tandem jumps are precisely what keep dropzones alive. They're a great thing for the sport, and a great way to learn to skydive too. But the fact is a 182 can carry 2 tandems or one AFF. Tandem requires very little training time and only a single instructor. It costs less and makes more. Good for the student and good for the DZ.

Tandem has a ton of advantages other than cost too. But I still believe many DZs REQUIRE tandems because of the money they generate compared to other methods. Your DZ may be different and that's fine... don't take it personally. If a student with a pilots license and 50 hours of tunnel time showed up, do you think they should HAVE to do a tandem? I started with AFF 1 and didn't even use a radio (had one but the instructor told me he wouldn't say anything if I was doing ok...never heard a peep from him). Did I NEED an instructor with me to teach canopy control? I'm not saying it would have been bad, I'm just saying people are perfectly cabable of learning to skydive without being strapped to an instructor.

Dave

[sdgregory 0]

I'm not sure what that would be, but I certainly do not mean I would give them advice on what to do in a certain situation. And I would never give any advice to a person on student status. I have no place talking there at all. I mean if someone with less jumps than me, say they have 26 and just got their A were to ask me what the landing pattern is because they never jumped there, I can point them to the winds heading and the arial photo and show them the 1000 foot area could I not?

Or is that even too much to tell someone? How could this be wrong answering that type of question? Certainly if it led to more complicated questions I would, without hesitation, direct them to a much higher authority. Is my thinking really wrong here?

[nightjumps 1]

Nope. That's perfect. Thank you.

[AggieDave 6]

Its not so much that you really struck a nerve, its just that this arguement has come up quite a bit in the past couple weeks and for some reason what you said had stuck with me. Sorry, didn't really mean to single you out.

Quote

But the fact is a 182 can carry 2 tandems or one AFF. Tandem requires very little training time and only a single instructor. It costs less and makes more. Good for the student and good for the DZ.

Like Bigun said, if they really wanted the money, they'd push S/L or IAD. 3 students, one instructor and really quick turnaround times. That's where the big money is for 1 C-182 DZs.

Quote

If a student with a pilots license and 50 hours of tunnel time showed up, do you think they should HAVE to do a tandem?

Tunnel time would help, a pilots licenese means jack shit for skydiving, other then they know whats happening with the plane. I've taught a couple pilots that were commercial rated and CFII/MEIs. Know what? They performed just about average as every other student I've had. Why? Because it doesn't mean anything to skydiving. You need to talk to Mike Gahan, he's a pilot with over 5000hrs of time, all the ratings, etc. He used to say "a wing is a wing" and jumped a highly loaded Vengence 120. Well, a bit over a year ago he hooked in, BAD, the only reason why he lived is because it had rained off and on the week before, so the ground was a bit softer then usual. Yup, his pilots license really helped.

If they showed up with tunnel time, well, makes no difference. If they want to do AFF without the tandems, they can, that's always been an option, they'll save nearly $400 if they do the tandem progression, though. So like I said, its really up to them. That tunnel time will probably help them compress some of the other AFF jumps, so they'll end up saving a lot of money in the end. Although I promise we'll have to work on their canopy control, pilots license or not.

Quote

I'm just saying people are perfectly cabable of learning to skydive without being strapped to an instructor

That's cool, I never said they *needed* to have a tandem to learn. I've just said that from what I've seen, people learn faster, do better and can fly better at lower jump numbers by doing the tandem progression. It has to do with how things are presented to learn. Smaller pieces over a course of time with hands on training to apply to a transition course that is shorter, compared to having to digest 8hrs of information for a single moment in time in which you're expected to use the information. Never mind that situation is one you've never been in before, is high stress and high adriniline. See what I'm saying.

Oh, if they want to spend the nearly $400 more to do it that way, that's cool by us, since they just made the DZ more money!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rhaig 0]

eh... you probably drink shiner bock light!

what the hell were they thinking making a light beer? Shiner is Shiner. it's not light beer!

--
Rob

[rhaig 0]

Quote

Just food for thought here...
Lets say someone has 400 jumps with 300 of those done in the last 2 months. 170 of those coaching jumps with one of the top flyers in the world. It isn't always about jump numbers, but also about the quality of those jumps. There is something to be learned from every skydiver. One just has to be open to it.
B~Squared

depends on what this person is giving advice about.

there is something to be said for time in sport too.

if this theoretical 400 jump wonder has been jumping for a year, I'm going to hazzard a guess that they've seen a couple of turned ankles, maybe a broken bone. If they're giving advice to a 50-jump wonder about what kind of canopy they should buy, I believe the 50 jump wonder might be better served by someone who's been around long enogh to understand the flinch reaction that your body has when someone cuts you off on final, and how a high end elliptical responds to that flinch as opposed to how a non-elliptical responnds to that flinch. They might also be netter served by taking advice from someone who has seen first hand how stupid people under hankerchiefs can kill themselves during a "hey y'all, watch this" moment.

If this 400 jump wonder is giving advice about relative work (the type they've been coached on) they are probably highly qualified to be giving that advice.

so my answer is a definitive "It depends"

--
Rob

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

I KNEW i shouldn't have posted to that thread

Hahaha!

Sure, you have no place posting to a thread like that, being that you've got ratings and experience. Atleast that's been the trend lately.

Lately? Stupid advice given out by folks without any experience has been an unfortunate trademark of this site for years. I like the inclusion of jump numbers & years in sport on the left side now, as it makes it obvious to everyone rather than just those who've been around long enough to recognize such advice on its own.

Quote

-- Lite beers are for pansies and imports are for liberals...Drink Shiner Bock!

You know what...for YEARS I've been listening to Texans talk about what great beer Shiner Bock is. However it's never been available up here in Washington. Well just a few weeks ago, I actually saw it in our grocery store and was all excited to try it. What a major disappointment. It's got slightly more flavor than Budweiser, but that sure ain't saying much. Real beer has color (other than piss yellow) and flavor. Lite beers, most imports, and Shiner Bock all fall into the same classification...striving for the lowest common denominator. Northwest beers such as those from Deschutes, Bridgeport, Lang, and Big Sky are so much better that one can't even really make a comparison.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Brains 2]

Quote

Northwest beers such as those from Deschutes, Bridgeport, Lang, and Big Sky are so much better that one can't even really make a comparison.

Good. Keep them up there and you stay there and drink them.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[ladyskydiver 0]

Ok...this may be a stupid question (and is off-topic), but I'm completely curious.

I noticed you have an A license with over 1000+ jumps (nothing wrong with not getting any other licenses so don't flame me, yet, k?), but I noticed you have instructor ratings.

Do you not need a D license for instructor ratings as long as you have the jumps? I searched the SIM and couldn't find a clear enough answer.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"It's got slightly more flavor than Budweiser, but that sure ain't saying much."

Are you qualified to make such statements? How long have you been drinking for? How many beers have you sampled? How current is your attendance at the bar? Do you even know the difference between Stella , Leffe, and Hooegarten?
Huh, huh? answer me that!

Pah, I'm done here.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[livendive 8]

Quote

Ok...this may be a stupid question (and is off-topic), but I'm completely curious.

I noticed you have an A license with over 1000+ jumps (nothing wrong with not getting any other licenses so don't flame me, yet, k?), but I noticed you have instructor ratings.

Do you not need a D license for instructor ratings as long as you have the jumps? I searched the SIM and couldn't find a clear enough answer.

Dammit, I want to flame you just because you told me not to, but I can't think of a good reason to.

The introduction of Coaches and the recent changes in jump number requirements for licenses have changed things a bit, but here's the gist of it.

Back when B licenses were at 50 jumps and C's were at 100, a C was required to get a Jumpmaster rating in any specific method of instruction. A JM then became eligible to upgrade to an Instructor rating when he/she got his D-license (200 jumps minimum) Then the JM rating was replaced by the Coach rating (non-method specific), and it still required a C. Then the D was changed to 500 jumps and the C to 200 jumps, so now only a B is required to get a Coach rating (but one must still have 100 jumps), and only a C is required to get an I rating (except tandem). In any case, I did not (and still do not) think many jumpers are ready to instruct at 100 jumps (I certainly wasn't), and I waited till I had a D-license to get my S/L and IAD JM ratings.

The way it stands now:
A B-license and 100 jumps are required for a Coach rating.
A C-license is required for S/L, IAD, and AFF Instructor ratings (AFF must also have 6 hours of logged freefall time)
A D-license is required for a Tandem rating.

Additionally, I'm an S&TA (not an option on the profiles here). A D-license and at least one I rating are essentially required for this, though I think there have been occasional instances of S&TA's holding only a C-license. That's one I doubt you'll see real often, as USPA probably doesn't want to send all the license exams and answer keys off to folks who have not yet gotten those licenses.

Wow, this answer was probably way longer than you expected for such a simple question. Short answer...the profile form asks for a license letter and number. I chose to put my first license (A) in there rather than my last (D) because I'd rather be someone who's still learning a ton than consider myself a "Master Parachutist" (that term has also been recently excised from the SIM).

Blues,
Dave
A-24449
B-21190
C-28840
D-21415
S/L, IAD, and Tandem I (AFF TBA)

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

You need to talk to Mike Gahan, he's a pilot with over 5000hrs of time, all the ratings, etc. He used to say "a wing is a wing" and jumped a highly loaded Vengence 120. Well, a bit over a year ago he hooked in, BAD, the only reason why he lived is because it had rained off and on the week before, so the ground was a bit softer then usual. Yup, his pilots license really helped.

Dunno why I'm gonna bother to reply but here goes anyway...

How many jumps did he have? How many times did he do a split-S in a plane to land? Flying's not gonna help a skydiver do a hook turn. But assuming he was flying before skydiving, I bet he had better than average canopy control on his first jump.

Back to tandems...

Your DZ doesn't require every jumper to do 2 tandems. It doesn't apply to what I'm talking about in the first place.

Many small DZs do offer static line. Do you think it's because its the best teaching method out there? Sure, some people here will argue that it is. But I think it's because of cost. But static line is much harder to market than tandem. And it requires a long training class like AFF. AND ya can't charge $80 for video.

I have no idea what your DZ charges for jumps or pays the instructors or any of that. But I wouldn't be surprised if the DZ still made more money on the tandem progression even though it's over $300 cheaper than AFF.

Dave

[ladyskydiver 0]

Quote

Dammit, I want to flame you just because you told me not to, but I can't think of a good reason to.

Thanks, Dave! Hey, it may be a long explanation, but it's nice to know/understand. I appreciate it.

Hmmm...."Master Parachutist" - doesn't that translate to "Master Beginner"? (Or at least that's the way I look at it. Compared to some people in the sport...I'll always be a newbie.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[KrisFlyZ 0]

Quote

I wasn't thinking about things like that, what was brought to mind was some recent posts about tandem ISP vs. traditional AFF where folks with only a few jumps were trying to tell someone else that they should do X "because its a better program" and shit like that.

That's what really got me thinking.

I did post on 'a thread' that spoke about the issue. (Tandem ISP vs Traditional AFF).

I mean no disrespect but your opinion or the opinion of a jumper with 100,000 jumps is only as good as mine. Coz its just that an opinion.

My first jump was a traditional AFF jump. I later moved on to the Tandem program. I have an opinion on the issue and I will give my opinion when someone asks for it.

I seriously wonder why you should be concerned about something trivial like this.

Kris.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

I wasn't thinking about things like that, what was brought to mind was some recent posts about tandem ISP vs. traditional AFF where folks with only a few jumps were trying to tell someone else that they should do X "because its a better program" and shit like that.

That's what really got me thinking.

I did post on 'a thread' that spoke about the issue. (Tandem ISP vs Traditional AFF).

I mean no disrespect but your opinion or the opinion of a jumper with 100,000 jumps is only as good as mine. Coz its just that an opinion.

No offense intended, but that's where the phrase "hundred jump wonder" comes from. Are you honestly arguing that a person with 100 jumps, including a couple tandems, can opine on tandem instruction with the same level of authorty as a tandem instructor with 1000 jumps?

Kris............................................AggieDave
100 jumps...................................1000 jumps
a couple front-side tandems...........a couple hundred jumps as a tandem instructor

Now honestly...who's opinion on tandem instruction should carry more weight?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)