Infinity cutter location changed

[skydiverek 56]

Here is the note from Velocity Rigs on the cutter location change:

http://www.velocityrigs.com/manual/Cypres_Cutter_Location.pdf

[NovaTTT 1]

Nothing there - dead link.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[indyz 1]

Works fine for me.

[riggerrob 558]

" ..

[NovaTTT 1]

Guess it's just me. I tried the link, going directly to the site, and Save Target As.

No joy.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[riggerrob 558]

"...


I have seen some UGLY infinity pack jobs (and others, as i'm sure we all have) ... the customer is clueless. Some riggers don't care about aesthetics, and most customers don't know the difference. ..."

..........................................................................

Agreed!

Many riggers do not understand all the secret tricks to packing all the different types of containers.

The problem is not unique to Mirages.

Did I ever tell you about the time a DZO returned a Student Telesis container to Rigging Innovations with the complaint that it was difficult to close?

Both main and reserve closing loops were so long that it looked like a two-humped camel!!!

I told a staff rigger to repack the rig - with factory-standard closing loops. We mailed that Telesis back to the customer and never heard from him again.

Writing closing loop lengths - in manuals - is a delicate legal question. First because pack volumes vary widely from the California desert to the swamps of Florida. If a rigger installs the factory-recommended closing loop length, but ignores some other part of the manual, he may find the container so difficult to close that he rips out grommets or damages side flaps.

For example, I lost a debate about which photos to include in the Talon 2 manual. A year later, my boss apologized because the Canadian Army team was skipping the step - that was written, but not illustrated - and complained of pilot chute hesitations. Good thing the hesitations were only on the packing table.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

" ..

possibility of an AAD cutter jamming on the loop ... "

....................................................................

This is the first I have heard about cutters jamming loops.
Rather, my experience has been that anytime a sharp edge touches a tight closing loop, the loop fails almost instantaneously.

Rob Warner
FAA Master Rigger
Canadian Rigger Examiner
factory certified to maintain FXC
Airtec certified to install Cypres retrofit kits

[skydiverek 56]

Quote

Isn't there some suspicion in the Polish Argus incident that the cutter was jammed on a partially cut loop?

Yes. See here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3825061

[regulator 0]

Here Nova...I cut/pasted the addendum from VSE for you...
of course it helps to view it as a .pdf so you can see the pictures...

Revision A. 03/01/2009
Infinity Owner’s Manual Supplement
1. Please note: we are no longer operating in Washington! Please do not send
mail or parcel to the address printed in the user manual. Instead, we can be
contacted here:
Velocity Sports Equipment, Inc.
PO Box 3370
Bend, OR 97707
Phone: 253-445-8790
Fax: 253-445-8792
2. To improve the function and effectiveness of an AAD triggered reserve
deployment, we have moved the location of the AAD cutter. Note that it was
previously located on flap #1 below the pilot chute; we have moved it to flap
number 2, above the pilot chute. To protect the cutter and reduce visibility,
we have begun installing reserve pilot chutes with recessed caps. As always,
there is no specific pilot chute orientation, it will function as designed, in any
rotation around the closing loop axis. Pilot chutes with recessed caps may be
used with cutters located below the pilot chute.
It is not mandatory to have your AAD cutter located above the pilot chute.
Should you have an Infinity with the cutter below the pilot chute, and desire
to have it fitted above the pilot chute, please contact us and we will do our
best to schedule a retro fit in a timely manner.
Below the Pilot Chute (Old) Above the Pilot Chute (New)

[NovaTTT 1]

Thanks, Regulator.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[koppel 3]

Australian design called the Woomera. Get system, much loved by CReW Dogs due to being able to place the reserve PC where you want it in the case of a mess around you...

:)

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[KellyF 16]

Quote

i must say... i have to agree with the earlier statement about closing loop length issues. if this is the real issue at hand, why make an arbitrary cutter location change? how about a bulletin stating the importance of the right length loop? i have the utmost faith in velocity sports equipment, but using 'aesthetics' as a reason seems a bit thin to me. help me here, tony....

Hi Nicole, simply put, as the manufacturer, we can control the length of cut loop, but we cannot control the closing loop length once a rig leaves our shop. Even saying to "pack the rig as tight as possible while maintaining a maximum pull force of 22 lbs." is not sufficient since how well the canopy is compressed before the rig is closed is a variable that could affect the length of cut loop if the cutter is placed below the pilot chute.

Quote

AADs are a fact these days. Since they are so nearly universal, we should have rigs that don't jam shut no matter where you cut the loop.

Good luck with that

I want to stress that this is simply a PRODUCTION change, NOT a service bulletin.

[roccoflys 0]

hi kelly. i totally understand- you have to be in control of what you can be. i guess what i'm wondering is has there been a problem? are you trying to comply with certain aad recommendations? european regulations? or did you just decide that it's a better place for the cutter?
thank you for chiming in, btw.

[linestretch 0]

My blanket statement is this...it's from half ass riggers that use too long of a closing loop. Or, riggers that don't 'set' the knot so it doesn't move down the closing loop while under tension thus the closing loop slowing growing in length.

Here's the next issue with pointing this out. You say to a jumper "hey, that looks like shit, you should have your rigger fix that". They say something to the rigger and then the rigger gets all defensive and says it's fine. We're back to square one.

my pics & stuff!

[BrianM 1]

Quote

i have seen some UGLY infinity pack jobs (and others, as i'm sure we all have) and believe you me, the customer is clueless.

I've seen some UGLY pack jobs on various rigs (for example, Javelin's and Wings' with a 1.5 inch gap between the PC cap and the sideflaps, PC fabric and mesh going everywhere); the owners were NOT clueless but accepted it the way it was anyway!

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[skydiverek 56]

Quote

hi kelly. i totally understand- you have to be in control of what you can be. i guess what i'm wondering is has there been a problem? are you trying to comply with certain aad recommendations? european regulations? or did you just decide that it's a better place for the cutter?
thank you for chiming in, btw.

Please see the attached TWO PDF files.

[roccoflys 0]

ah so. i knew about the mirage sb, but hadn't seen the recommendations from airtec. the mud is becoming clear, now.
now this may not be for this thread, but what about cutters on the bottom of the rsv container (i.e. javelin)? doesn't this present a similar problem? i realize it is much easier to SEE an overly long closing loop on a javelin (or wings, for that matter), but that certainly doesn't prevent it from happening.

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Hi Nicole, simply put, as the manufacturer, we can control the length of cut loop, but we cannot control the closing loop length once a rig leaves our shop. Even saying to "pack the rig as tight as possible while maintaining a maximum pull force of 22 lbs." is not sufficient since how well the canopy is compressed before the rig is closed is a variable that could affect the length of cut loop if the cutter is placed below the pilot chute.

Hi Kelly,

Other manufacturers have published loop lengths in their manuals. Some of them print them as recommendations, while others state them as instructions just like any other step.

As a rigger, I appreciate having loop lengths published - even if they're only recommendations. A recommended loop length is a great starting point when I see a rig for the first time.

As an aside, I would also love to see an updated version of the manual. PDF's of old scans of old books makes the Infinity manual one of the weaker ones out there. I suspect the lack of details in this manuals might lead to newer riggers making mistakes like having closing loops too long.

BTW - love your rigs.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.