Why are Dolphin containers laugh at in parts of Australia or is it a global thing?

[pchapman 262]

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Most Dolphins - made pre-2000 - were not freefly friendly.
Most pre-2000 Javelins are not freefly friendly.
[..etc]
What is the difference?

It would be interesting to start a table of rigs vs. freefly friendly / modern features, showing dates of introduction.

I don't know off-hand who had what when. Javelins for example changed to the improved reserve pin cover in '96 I think. Vector III's, Mirages, Wings, Infinities, Reflexes, all with generally modern protection -- which hasn't changed much in over a decade -- all existed by the late 90s. Plenty of new rigs were appearing then (even if under old TSOs).

At that time brand new Dolphins weren't just "simple" or "inexpensive" but seemed to show that the company was way behind on what people started to consider important safety features.

So maybe I'm overemphasizing that era where they were behind for a while, but many other rigs were more freefly friendly before 2000.

[JerryBaumchen 1,080]

Hi Dave,

Always glad to share my thoughts.

***The next question is, what added strength would the 'X' in the middle of the square add, why would other manufactures do it and at what extra cost would that small attention to detail add to the overall cost of the Dolphin? ***

1. The 'X' adds some thread to the overall stitch pattern making it stronger. A really, really long time ago I 'was told' ( ) that any stitching transverse to the direction of loading should not be considered when developing the proper amount of stitching for a particular application.

2. As to what or why some mfrs do what they do: Ask them; I cannot speak for them.

3. Extra cost: Zilch IMO

Hope that this helps you better understand some of this stuff.

JerryBaumchen

[Sangi 0]

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Are you implying that the shiny stuff is MORE functional?

I guess so..

Well you got to admit that stuff like hip rings, spacer foam, skyhook, magnetic riser covers, stowless d-bag etc. add a tad bit more functionality...

But hey, nevermind that, anything I say will sound stupid coming from me anyways..

"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

[muff528 3]

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I don't mean to start a war. I was asked why on another thread I steered a A licence jumper away from a Dolphin. The reason being, Dolphins are laughed at in my local DZ and other Aussie DZ's. I didn't want the new jumper to get potentially laughed at. The big question is WHY? Why are Dolphins laughed at.. Is it because its called a Dolphin? I vaguely remember something about deployment.

Don't know much about the technical differences between them, but I think the same guy developed the Javelin and the Dolphin. (I really wanted to do some of the intentional cutaway jumps for them at Z-hills but it was determined that I wasn't experienced enough back then to do that )

[skybytch 259]

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Well you got to admit that stuff like hip rings, spacer foam, skyhook, magnetic riser covers, stowless d-bag etc. add a tad bit more functionality...

Hip rings add comfort, not functionality. Spacer foam adds comfort, not functionality. Skyhook is an optional safety device that some jumpers choose not to use; it adds complexity to the system, not functionality. Magnetic riser covers are no more functional that well designed and maintained tuck tabs. Stowless d-bags still have locking stows; all they've done is to stow everything else like on a freebag, and until they've been available and used in the real world (ie as main d-bags on main parachutes used for skydiving applications) for awhile we won't really know if they are "more" functional or not, will we?

[mpohl 1]

Of course, most new skydivers will never reach 500 jumps, let alone 1,000 jumps.

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The primary reason major parachute dealers (e.g. Square One) hate Dolphins is that there is too small a mark-up for them to turn a profit.
... nor are there enough shiny options on Dolphins to allow them to turn a profit.
IOW When parachute dealers sell Dolphins, they break-even on the containers and have to try to mark up the canopies enough to turn a profit.

The other issue is that Dolphins do not last for ever, maybe a thousand jumps, maybe 2,000 jumps and they have tiny resale values.

From a rigger's perspective, Dolphins pack exactly tht same as Javelins and riggers might make a small profit replacing a bit of Velcro.
OTOH Javelins might last longer before they need sewing repairs, but replacing tuck tab plastics on Javelins is beyond the machines and skill of most field riggers.
(e.g. The only reason I attempt replacing plastic stiffeners in Javelins is because I replaced plastics in dozens of Talons, when I worked at Rigging Innovations for thre years.)

[airtwardo 6]

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Well you got to admit that stuff like hip rings, spacer foam, skyhook, magnetic riser covers, stowless d-bag etc. add a tad bit more functionality...

Hip rings add comfort, not functionality. Spacer foam adds comfort, not functionality. Skyhook is an optional safety device that some jumpers choose not to use; it adds complexity to the system, not functionality. Magnetic riser covers are no more functional that well designed and maintained tuck tabs. Stowless d-bags still have locking stows; all they've done is to stow everything else like on a freebag, and until they've been available and used in the real world (ie as main d-bags on main parachutes used for skydiving applications) for awhile we won't really know if they are "more" functional or not, will we?

...and to think I was just going to say something about the difference between functionality & Bling!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Beatnik 2]

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Hip rings add comfort, not functionality.

The rest I agree with but this I don't. I think comfort is a secondary thing they add. Articulating a harness makes it stronger by being able to transfer loads more effectively. This was proven in destructive tests.

[airtwardo 6]

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Hip rings add comfort, not functionality.

The rest I agree with but this I don't. I think comfort is a secondary thing they add. Articulating a harness makes it stronger by being able to transfer loads more effectively. This was proven in destructive tests.

Yeah...all those harness failures before hip rings were just unfathomable!



*ever seen what a sharp nick on a metal ring can do to a fabric harness?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Beatnik 2]

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Yeah...all those harness failures before hip rings were just unfathomable!



*ever seen what a sharp nick on a metal ring can do to a fabric harness?

I am not saying that a standard harness is not more than strong enough but articulating it does ad some function. That is something a lot of people forget and just automatically associate hop rings with comfort. Which is how they are advertised and usually thought of. Which I am sure was why they were said to add comfort.

Yes unfortunately I have seen what nicks in metal hardware have done to webbing.

[airtwardo 6]

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Yeah...all those harness failures before hip rings were just unfathomable!



*ever seen what a sharp nick on a metal ring can do to a fabric harness?

I am not saying that a standard harness is not more than strong enough but articulating it does ad some function. That is something a lot of people forget and just automatically associate hop rings with comfort. Which is how they are advertised and usually thought of. Which I am sure was why they were said to add comfort.

Yes unfortunately I have seen what nicks in metal hardware have done to webbing.

As long as we're drifting the thread...

One of my rigs has hip rigs, and it's quite comfortable waiting to board the aircraft.
It's the best custom fitted rig I've ever had...went straight to the factory to get measured.

~I have to have a bungee cord between the legstraps because in certain instances the rig articulates around so much falling through 'the hole' becomes a danger...in fact it's manufactured with little slots to run the bungee through.

An older rig I have doesn't have hip rings, it does have adjustable friction hardware on the side straps that allow me to tighten the harness to a fit well above & beyond anything approachable on my newer one.

Both are comfortable enough, ~the rig without hip rings is more expensive to manufacture...

Since I've never heard of an older style harness failing, I have to wonder why i$ it we see these '$afety' change$ implemented to fix $omething that wa$n't really broken...and adds yet another problem ...now fixed with a 'rubber-band' !

So to me...the only 'functionality' I see that hip rings add, is that the rig is more comfortable to walk around on the ground with.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Beatnik 2]

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Since I've never heard of an older style harness failing, I have to wonder why i$ it we see these '$afety' change$ implemented to fix $omething that wa$n't really broken...and adds yet another problem ...now fixed with a 'rubber-band' !

I am not sure why articulation was developed. It may have been for comfort but the end result provided a stronger harness. Since loads are transferred different compared to a standard harness, I say it functions differently. It may be a small difference but there is one.

[airtwardo 6]

I say it functions differently.


Different isn't always better.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[jenette 0]

So, the lesson to the story is.. Dropzones can be snobby and favour the rigs they all wear. That Dolphins are just fine as a good basic container, with a good price tag and good for a student jumper especially since they may not be in the sport too long.

So, leave new Dolphin alone, other than being called Dolphin (which I think is the funny part), I mean Shark!, Stingray, swordfish are more hardcore sounding sea dwellers which the container could have been named. :D
It's not a laughing matter if it gets you in the plane.

I feel kinda goofed getting my Vector due to hype and peep pressure. Man, and I thought I was a strong minded individual and not a gear whore.

x

www.exoticbodypiercing.com.au

[JerryBaumchen 1,080]

Hi jenette,

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Dropzones can be snobby and favour the rigs they all wear.

Try going to Skydive Kapowsin and jumping something other than an Infinity.

Something to do with the DZO's being named Farrington.

JerryBaumchen

[riggerrob 562]

" ...
I am not sure why articulation was developed. It may have been for comfort but the end result provided a stronger harness. ..."

.......................................................................

The primary reason introduced hip rings - in 1991 - was to improve flexibility for World Champion free-stylists like Dale Stuart.
Hip rings are also helpful when stuffing large skydivers into small airplanes.
Average-sized skydivers (especially belly-fliers) - with limited flexibility - benefit little from ringed harnesses.

Yes, ringed harnesses are stronger, but you have to open so hard that you will damage human bodies long before the harness will fail.
Back in the mid-1990s, I had to rebuild three R.I. harnesses with bent hip rings. This was back when a while lot of new technology was introduced for main canopies: ZP fabric, thin Spectra lines, Tube Stows, non-reinforced main risers made of Type 17 webbing, wing-loadings exceeding one pound per square foot, etc.
Two of the three owners (Bill Beaver and Tom Falzone) complained of openings so hard that it took weeks to straighten out their necks! Two of those three main canopies schreded!
Rigging Innovations responded by replacing harnesses for free and installing stronger, cadmium-plated hip rings.

When Al MacDonald (Flying High) got a license to build ringed harnesses, he re-tested his Sidewinder harnesses and found them 15 percent stronger with hip rings, because the hip rings allowed leg straps to align themselves directly with the load. Al also eliminated upper leg straps.

[NVizABull 0]

Obviously you aren't keeping up...Mike's been freefly friendly for the past 8 yrs or so. He's gone one further on the reserve pin cover with a tuck and the velcro. Bridle covers, etc.

The other person saying that a Dolphin not lasting is incorrect, as well. They all use the same manufacturers for materials, so do the math.

I'm not going to get into the pissing match, but I have two Dolpin rigs. I've been jumping for 14 yrs.

[Beatnik 2]

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When Al MacDonald (Flying High) got a license to build ringed harnesses, he re-tested his Sidewinder harnesses and found them 15 percent stronger with hip rings, because the hip rings allowed leg straps to align themselves directly with the load. Al also eliminated upper leg straps.

This is the data I was referring to. I believe it was Al who told Sandy about the results. Al had destructive tests done at the University of Alberta (I believe) before having them as an option on his rigs. Before that I don't believe that was done.

[Remster 24]

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So, leave new Dolphin alone, other than being called Dolphin (which I think is the funny part), I mean Shark!, Stingray, swordfish are more hardcore sounding sea dwellers

I'd vote for calling it the Hammerhead-i Eagle Thrust. That, or Geoff.

Remster

[riggerpaul 1]

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So, leave new Dolphin alone, other than being called Dolphin (which I think is the funny part), I mean Shark!, Stingray, swordfish are more hardcore sounding sea dwellers

I'd vote for calling it the Hammerhead-i Eagle Thrust. That, or Geoff.

Isn't Geoff the giraffe from Toys'R'Us?

[jumpwally 0]

Really,,where was this ? IIRC in a Bill Booth interview he stated that hip rings were overrated and a potential problem area....he also stated he enjoyed charging for them......

Stronger hhmmmm,,,all i see is 4 more pcs of hardware that can enjoy human failure and at least 9 more stitch point areas that can suffer from someone in hurry or bad day..

They don't scare me, i'm not against them,,,i just think that its like putting slippers on a dog.

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Beatnik 2]

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Really,,where was this ?

Al MacDonald runs Flying High and makes the Sidewinder rig in Alberta, Canada. When he started building articulated rigs he got it tested to destruction.

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Stronger hhmmmm,,,all i see is 4 more pcs of hardware that can enjoy human failure and at least 9 more stitch point areas that can suffer from someone in hurry or bad day..

As said above by Rob and myself the loads transfer more effectively and efficiently which make it stronger. Articulation allows for the load to be transferred over the entire surface of the webbing opposed to one side or another because of binding, particularly lower in the harness.

For sure there is more work putting a harness together but from knowing engineering particularly to do with force transfer and statics, it makes complete sense and the destructive test results proved that as well.

[RMURRAY 1]

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Hip rings add comfort, not functionality.

The rest I agree with but this I don't. I think comfort is a secondary thing they add. Articulating a harness makes it stronger by being able to transfer loads more effectively. This was proven in destructive tests.

I asked Nancy at JumpShack and she says on a racer the traditional harness (no rings) is stronger. in my opinion for the buyer hip rings are fashion and for the seller it is extra profit. nothing wrong with either.

edit to add note from Nancy at JumpShack...

Hi Rob,
No, hip rings do not make a rig stronger. Where ever you have a junction rather than continuous webbing, you have a vulnerable place. The cadmium ring that we used to use for Racers with hip rings is rated to 4500 lbs. I believe the stainless steel ring that we now use is rated to 5000 lbs. Because our harness is TSO’d in the Standard (high speed), category each side must withstand 4500 pounds, assuming a 90% - 10% load distribution. The Type 13 main lift web is rated to 7000 lbs. Thus the traditional Racer harness is stronger than any hip ring configuration. Remember this: if you were to have such a horrendous or one-sided opening that you broke every stitch in your harness, you wouldn’t fall out of the traditional Racer harness, because you would still be wrapped in webbing. You might be
dead from a broken neck – but you wouldn’t have fallen out of your harness! Other manufacturers use the RW 8 as a hip ring. It’s rated to 3000 lbs. There you have a vulnerable junction, and vulnerable hardware. All that being said, some people like the walking-around-on–the-ground comfort of the hip ring. The hip ring doesn’t give you the lumbar support and the more efficient weight distribution that the continuous horizontal and main lift web does, however. This is a good discussion for the Racer FAQ’s..............Nancy

[Beatnik 2]

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I asked Nancy at JumpShack and she says on a racer the traditional harness (no rings) is stronger. in my opinion for the buyer hip rings are fashion and for the seller it is extra profit. nothing wrong with either.

The Sidewinder has the exact same harness as the Racer and I have no idea why a independent source would give information that wasn't true. So I am more willing to side with the destructive test results. However, I do find it interesting that they are saying the opposite and makes me wonder if they have done similar tests and what their results were.

[riggerrob 562]

I suspect that the primary reason ringed Sidewinder harnesses tested stronger was because they eliminated the upper leg strap. A weak point - on most harnesses - is where the upper leg strap exits the main lift web. About 20 years ago, Relative Workshop issued a Service Bulletin that said to inspect all Vector 1 Tandem instructor harnesses. If the Vector lacked 2 rows of stitching along the front edge, RWS said to sew an extra row or two of 5 cord to reinforce that edge of the stitch pattern.
Read about it in Poynter's Manual, Volume 2, circa 1991.
To that end, most fixed harnesses (Infinity, Mirage, Naro, Racer, Sidewinder, Talon, Vector, etc.) have a double row of stitching along the front edge of the hip joint to prevent the heaviest-loaded stitch form failing.