Silhouette vs Pilot

[awagnon 0]

I'm 62 years old, have about 60 jumps and my A license. I'm comfortable jumping my Silhouette 210 (loaded at .95) at the 5,000 altitude of our DZ. I'd like to downsize at around 100 jumps. Due to my age, it will most likely be the rig I use the rest of my jumping career. I've read all the posts I can about Silhouette and Pilot mains. Seems like PD recommends a size larger Silhouette for unknown reasons. My question: I'm thinking of buying a Sil-190 or a Pilot 188 (loaded at 1.06). How do these mains compare and is my current Sil-210 comparable to a Pilot 188 if PD recommends a size larger Silhouette per skill level? I don't recall seeing any Pilot mains on our DZ, so there is no one to ask, but everyone seems to like the Silhouettes. Any advice would be appreciated.

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[AggieDave 6]

Why do you want to downsize and what are your goals with canopy flight?

Those are the things you have to decide before picking where you want to go and what equipment you need to go there. Both canopies fly very nice, open well and serve their intended purpose very well. You'll find that a Pilot is a little higher performing canopy then the Silhouette. A PD canopy in the same class as the Pilot would be the Sabre2.

Have you had an opportunity to contact both companies about getting a demo canopy (in the size that you jump now for comparison, before you downsize)?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[awagnon 0]

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Why do you want to downsize and what are your goals with canopy flight?.

Have you had an opportunity to contact both companies about getting a demo canopy (in the size that you jump now for comparison, before you downsize)?

My goal is a little higher performance, but I have no interest in swooping or even a lot higher performance. Plus, the Sil-210 I'm jumping is very, very used and I'd like to replace it.

I've thought about demo-ing, but that will have to wait until spring.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[Bip 0]

What about a Pulse? I am a 50+ Jumper and really enjoy the canopy.

[mjosparky 3]

This is just my opinion for what it worth. The Silhouette is the best kept secret in skydiving. It is a hybrid using F-111 type material on the bottom skin and ZP on the top. This means easier packing. It will never be a hot rod but the performance is just fine for the average week end jumper. Unless you have some driving reason to downsize get a new 210 Silhouette and enjoy jumping.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggerpaul 1]

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This is just my opinion for what it worth. The Silhouette is the best kept secret in skydiving. It is a hybrid using F-111 type material on the bottom skin and ZP on the top. This means easier packing. It will never be a hot rod but the performance is just fine for the average week end jumper. Unless you have some driving reason to downsize get a new 210 Silhouette and enjoy jumping.

Sparky

+1

But I'll add that the Pulse is possibly the next gen Silhouette.

If you have the opportunity to demo a Pulse, it might be a good thing.

But, barring that, getting a new copy of the parachute you already know and love shouldn't be a bad thing.

Though the Pilot and Sabre2 canopies are wonderful in their own rights, I would also point out that they are all ZP, which will not make packing either of them as easy as a Pulse or Silhouette would be. Brand new ZP can be really difficult to handle, though it will get easier after some jumps.

But everyone I know who has tried them say that Silhouettes and Pulses are easy to pack even when brand new.

[gzimmermann 0]

Alton, I am not the youngest too anymore, 45. I recently bought my first rig with an Icon, Pilot 168 ZPX. I have 10 jumps on it on a higher loading than you are aiming for, all landings were very smooth, 2 even in no-wind conditions. I have had the Sabre2 in 190 before and a Pilot188 as my main rentals from jumps 20-34. I preferred the Pilot. It flares easily and opens smoothly, maybe a little slow but that's ok. I am pulling on 3000 usually. My point: I like the Pilot, the color coded lines make packing easier and given my small experience it was the canopy that had the best handling for me. Forgiving to some extent but agile and quick if you want it. No experience with the Silhouette though.

[freeatlast 0]

Hi Alton

I would agree with most of what has been suggested.

I would strongly suggest drawing up a shortlist and trying to demo as many of the canopies on it as possible.

The simple truth is that whilst canopy reviews are a good indicator of how the canopy performs it will be you who decides which one you really prefer.

The Silhouette and Pulse are probably the closest to what you already jump and the Pilot or Sabre 2 are both slightly higher performance than the others.

If you were here in Europe i would add the X-Fun and the Dragon to your shortlist as well but you will probably struggle to manage to demo one in the US at this moment in time.

Another thought would be to go to the Skydive Expo in March - i believe that several manufacturers will be there and you might be able to demo several canopies in one place before making your choice ...

(Mind you Deland is also the home of PD and Aerodyne so you could probably demo most of the canopies there at any time!)
Either way good luck with your choice - and let us know which you get in the end!

[verticalflier 0]

Hello Alton,
My name is Leszek and I am a US Demo Tour rep for Aerodyne.
We have visited SU and Skydive Ogden last year. Without going into explanation on the subject why Pilot is a better choice than competitors canopies, my advise is: do listen to individual opinions, but demo each canopy and find out which is the best fit for you.
In size Pilot 188 compares to PD 200sf canopies and Pilot 210 to PD 220+
Packing there is nothing better than ZPX, the days of half measures for reducing packing volume of mains, by making them hybrid, are over.
Our tour will be in UT at some point this summer, but we also have demo program available. Please email me or talk to Jack or Brian at either dz if you are interested.
Hope you find a canopy that will serve your needs best.
Blues,
Les
Aerodyne US Tour
>> Cell   (860)933-7666
>> Office (813)891-6300
>> [email protected]
>> “Better gear, better value, better skydives”

[pilot-one 0]

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Alton, I am not the youngest too anymore, 45

Hmmm....well I am still pretty young at 45 and I too jump the Pilot 168 ZPX. It is a completely different canopy than the Silhouette. If you demo a Pilot be prepared for a much more responsive canopy ride. In fact the Pilot is much more responsive than a similar sized Sabre 2 as well.

[captain1976 0]

Awagnon,

Here is the answer you are looking for. I am about the same age as you and am experienced with both the Silhouette and the Pilot. Though the Sil will be a little easier to pack, the timing of the flair is much more critical than the Pilot.

The Pilot is fine, but after a few demo jumps on a few different canopies, here is what I picked.

The Spectre! Not only does it fly great, the openings are all very soft because of its built in snivel. After 60 jumps on it (4 months) I can honestly say I never had a bad landing. The flair is much more powerful than the Sil & Pilot, both of which required more attention to shutting it down.

I wish I knew about the Spectre years ago as it would have saved me some bumps and bruises.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[awagnon 0]

Thanks for all the input. I had read about the Pulse, but hadn't really considered it until now. It certainly is a consideration.

Thanks, Les, for the demo advice. I recall when you were at SD Utah this summer. I was still in AFF at the time and demo'ing a canopy wasn't even on my radar yet. I hope to go to the Expo in March. If I do, maybe I'll get to demo a Pilot 188 and a Pulse.

Thanks again, everyone,
Blue Skies,
Alton

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[millertime24 8]

Here's what happened with me. Verticleflier (Les), came to both Skydive Ogden and Skydive Utah this past season. He asked me what I was looking for in a canopy and let me demo a few. Here's the summary...

I started out having a Sabre2 170 that flew absolutely great. I did not however, like the way the canopy opened (closed end cells and more often than I'd like off heading). When Les showed up to SO I had no idea how to go about demoing gear so I asked him. A few pieces of signed paper later he was setting me up with the Pilot 188zpx. I did a couple jumps on this canopy to get a feel for how it opened and flew. I even landed it downwind once (out of the main landing area of course) to see how well I could fly the wing if I ever HAD to do it. I found this canopy opens very smooth and on heading. Also, it is very forgiving of sloppy packing. I decided that this canopy wasn't quite in the performance area I wanted so I asked to try the next size down the Pilot 150. Same opening characteristics, but a bit more responsive to harness input as well as toggle input. I also landed this canopy both downwind and in a 1/2 braked final approach. The flare with the toggles is phenominal from both full flight and braked approaches. Basically the range of flare is quite large. I also landed this canopy using my rear risers to get a feel for how that would be. It seemed to plane out the just, well, stop (probably stalled it right before touchdown). Either way, it got me to the ground safely in every different manner in which I landed it.

Performance,

I did a couple high pulls with the 150 just to get to play with it for a while and found that input is very responsive. When I pulled a toggle or rear riser the effect of the wing was a, very much, 'right now' response. Front risers were a little bit slower to respond than the toggle or rear inputs, but fast enough to make me happy. In case of a bad spot you need not worry too much. Just release the brakes and get on the rears a little bit and you would be amazed how far this thing can go.

All in all, I was SO impressed with the Pilot 150 that I went down to Skydive Utah the next weekend and "demoed" (more like 'played') with it for several more jumps. Exactly 1 month later I purchased a BRAND NEW (something I generally never do with parachutes) Pilot 150 from the factory out of the stock list that they had. I litteraly could not wait for one to be built after having so much fun.

I'm in no way saying that the Silhouette is a 'bad' canopy. Ive flown the Silhouette 170 quite a few times, and it worked out very nicely for me. My only thing is that I WONT buy anything that is f-111 or that has f-111 in it. Thats just me.

As a side note, the difference in packing zpx vs standard zp is, IMO, negligable. The only advantage Ive seen with zpx is a MUCH lower pack volume. As far as canopy life expectancy, I just dont know and couldn't justify dropping another $250. Again, ALL of this is MY opinion and what I like and look for in canopies. I would reccomend demo demo demo, because what is good for some may not be for others. When you finally jump a canopy that is made for you you will know it (the canopy almost picks the pilot). Good luck and I hope this helps.

-Mike

ETA- I also jump in Utah. I'm deployed right now, but will be back for when the season opens. Look for the skinny guy with the mil hair cut and thats probably me.

Muff #5048

[AggieDave 6]

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My only thing is that I WONT buy anything that is f-111 or that has f-111 in it.

Why?

What data do you have special access to that the manufactures don't have that shows it to be bad to use? I just would like to know why you would come to the conclusion as to why modern designed hybrid canopies are now condemned in your opinion. Especially since more then one manufacture produce good hybrid canopies.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pchapman 261]

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What data do you have special access to that the manufactures don't have that shows it to be bad to use?

He did say it was just his opinion, for his own purchases. Maybe he doesn't mind the hassle of packing all ZP over having the F-111's porosity increase rapidly, even if using it on the bottom skin shouldn't theoretically lead to large performance losses over time. And it isn't as if he is doing something weird -- most skydivers only fly ZP style materials anyway.


So, by the way, anyone know how well Silhouettes are holding up relative to all-ZP canopies over many jumps?

(Got any special access to data?

[AggieDave 6]

It was how he said it that struck me as strange. Hybrid canopies have been in use for quite a while, the longevity of the fabric and design has held up. I don't currently have a need to own a hybrid canopy for what I want to do in skydiving, but I wouldn't completely write them off like that. Having jumped a number of hybrid canopies from a couple of manufactures, it appears that the technology is solid. Especially in the performance class many of the hybrid canopies are made.

When I first encountered hybrid canopies when I was a low time jumper, I had written them off as well. I just didn't have the experience with them.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[millertime24 8]

I just know that f-111 wears out quicker than zp hence, I dont want any part of my canopy made of the stuff. Not now that we have zp and zpx. Be sure that I'm not saying that hybrid canopies are "bad". Thats not it at all. I just prefere to spend MY money on something that is proven to last for a couple thousand jumps.

Muff #5048

[LouDiamond 1]

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I just know that f-111 wears out quicker than zp hence, I dont want any part of my canopy made of the stuff. Not now that we have zp and zpx. Be sure that I'm not saying that hybrid canopies are "bad". Thats not it at all. I just prefere to spend MY money on something that is proven to last for a couple thousand jumps.

In this case, I think your sig line is advice you should heed. Riddle me this....what makes ZP, ZP and what happens to ZP fabric once it ages? Does it become another fabric?

It sounds like you are forming your opinions on hybrid canopies without having a lot of the facts. I also highly doubt you have flown a canopy made out of F-111. I have found that a lot of people simply resort to the term F-111 when they refer to fabric other than ZP.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[riggerpaul 1]

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I just know that f-111 wears out quicker than zp hence, I dont want any part of my canopy made of the stuff. Not now that we have zp and zpx. Be sure that I'm not saying that hybrid canopies are "bad". Thats not it at all. I just prefere to spend MY money on something that is proven to last for a couple thousand jumps.

You are oversimplifying things.

Much closer to true would be that there are areas of a canopy where non-ZP fabrics will have less of a life than ZP fabrics.

It is also true that there are areas of a canopy where you should see no appreciable degradation in fabric performance even with a non-ZP fabric. Using a non-ZP fabric in these areas should not shorten the working life of the canopy to any significant degree.

I have a long time customer/friend who has put many many hundreds of jumps on his Silhouette over many many years. It is all he wants and expects from a canopy. It doesn't scare him, or hurt him, and he can land it gracefully in any condition in which he jumps. In his opinion, it is the best canopy in the world.

Your mileage may vary.

[DSE 3]

Alton, is the Sil you're jumping a purple one from SDU? If so, that's my old canopy.
I really like the Sil a lot. It was recommended to me by a couple military guys, and that model served me well for several hundred jumps.
The new Pilots are very nice too, but one thing I found is that the Silhouette can be a little more forgiving. However, I only have about a dozen jumps on a Pilot, vs several hundred on Silhouettes ranging from 210's to 150's.
Gonna be a tough choice, and I'd recommend demo'ing both for a little bit.

[awagnon 0]

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Alton, is the Sil you're jumping a purple one from SDU? If so, that's my old canopy.

DSE, yes it's the solid purple Sil-210. I didn't know it used to be yours. I have no idea how many jumps it has, nor who owned it since you. The person I bought it from didn't know it's history either. JG assembled it for me and felt it was still a good canopy. I'm pretty happy with it. No hurry to buy new, so hopefully I can demo a Pulse and a Pilot. Please PM me if you have any additional information on the canopy.

Alton

"Luck favors the prepared."

[zxcvb 0]

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. My only thing is that I WONT buy anything that is f-111 or that has f-111 in it. Thats just me.

Do you realize the Pilot has F-111 style ribs?

[Scootersv 0]

I believe we should start taking about that statement using past terms from now on as full ZP Pilots are available as of last year.

[millertime24 8]

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In his opinion, it is the best canopy in the world.

Your mileage may vary.

And in the end that is all that really matters.

To the rest of you who would question "MY" decisions,

Its "MY" money. Its "MY" canopy. Ive told you why I wont buy a hybrid. It is the same reason I wont buy an origional PD (the canopy not every canopy from PD). The only f-111 canopy I have or will ever puchase is a reserve. That may also be going away as soon as a designer comes up with a zp or zpx reserve. At the end of the day though, its "MY" money, "MY" canopy and "MY" choice and I really dont have to explain myself to anybody because it, in no way, affects anyone other than me.

Done with this thread.

Muff #5048

[riggerpaul 1]

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In his opinion, it is the best canopy in the world.

Your mileage may vary.

And in the end that is all that really matters.

To the rest of you who would question "MY" decisions,

Its "MY" money. Its "MY" canopy. Ive told you why I wont buy a hybrid. It is the same reason I wont buy an origional PD (the canopy not every canopy from PD). The only f-111 canopy I have or will ever puchase is a reserve. That may also be going away as soon as a designer comes up with a zp or zpx reserve. At the end of the day though, its "MY" money, "MY" canopy and "MY" choice and I really dont have to explain myself to anybody because it, in no way, affects anyone other than me.

Done with this thread.

First off, try to calm down a bit. Nobody attacked you.

I never said that you weren't completely entitled to buy what you wanted for your reasons. You absolutely are.

Still, your statement about non-ZP fabrics was one particular extreme view that was presented as fact. A little balance was in order, if only to give the original poster a full answer to his question. He deserves that, don't you think?

The fact that your reserve is still made of a non-ZP fabric clearly illustrates that non-ZP fabrics actually out perform ZP fabrics in certain areas. There have been reserves available that use ZP. They were not great successes.

If ZP was the end-all parachute fabric, it would be used in reserves. But it is not, and thinking of it that way just isn't quite correct.