Skyhook: 1 turn of thread (& a photo of 4 turns)

[pchapman 262]

Just a little post with an example of poor rigging.

I found this on a Student Vector III after use. The seal thread keeping the lanyard on the hook had 4 turns of thread instead of the one in the manual.

And since it was the Skyhook 2 with the 2 clear plastic plates, it didn't need to be tacked through the bridle itself.

On the plus side I'm sure it is effective in keeping from losing freebags...

Applying a steady pull to the RSL, and the bridle from the pilot chute end, didn't break the thread even when my scale maxed out at 50 lbs.

Due to the Skyhook hook being off the bridle's axis, under tension the Skyhook twists in position and the force is not directly along the hook. If I unnaturally forced the RSL to pull straight along the hook, I was able to get the thread to break at 45 lbs.

Just going by the manual, it wants ONE TURN of thread.

(I'll grant that it can be a little confusing at first glance: The old manuals said "one piece", not specifically defining one turn, while the newer Skyhook 2 instructions say "one turn" but the photo at first glance makes it look a lot like two turns.)

[likestojump 3]

it's sad, and someone has obviously not read the manual. When I did my first Skyhook2, I was glad that I no longer needed to pierce the bridle - seemed to make more sense.

I believe the mistake happened because the packer (dare I not refer to the person as a rigger ?) did not think of the purpose of the sealthread. IF it was meant to lock the RSL pigtail on the hook, there would probably be a spring gate on the end of the hook, and it would be called a skycarabiner instead :)

[pchapman 262]

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and it would be called a skycarabiner instead :)

[liftedtitan 0]

do you think it would have opperated properly? Not that its an excuse im just wondering.

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[likestojump 3]

In the event of main container lock, it could have been real ugly, as the part of the bridle below the skyhook (between the hook and the freebag) would have been locked off (the red RSL lanayrd would be holding on the hook via the four wraps of sealthread) and it would take for the reserve PC to generate enough drag to break the sealthread before the freebag would be lifted from the container. It would have *most likely* worked out, but I don't want to be the guy finding this out the hard way.

[pchapman 262]

Yeah, a total mal when subterminal, a poor pilot chute launch with it being unlucky to stay a bit in the burble... then I could see it not yanking with 50+ pounds force right away. So it probably would clear after a few seconds, but it still wouldn't be good for the jumper's heart rate...

[stratostar 5]

I doubt that it would break the thread if it took 50lbs to break the thread, there was a reason we used 6lbs break cord for SL back when and not 50 lbs break cord.

Anyone care to live test it, I'll video for free.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rhys 0]

ugly, spinny, horseshoe, tangled mess springs to mind.

I'm glad I have a skyhook, and I am glad 'I' am the one to close it in the container.

That shit is scary, if someone had a total malfunction on that rig, and went in, would that not be manslaughter?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Andy9o8 0]

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That shit is scary, if someone had a total malfunction on that rig, and went in, would that not be manslaughter?

Probably not, but that's not the point of the thread, so let's not drift it there.

[Jbag 0]

are other rigs packed by that rigger going to be checked? seems like a pretty serious issue especially on a student rig... what is the normal course of action over something like this, do you go back and speak to the rigger and teach him what he did wrong?

IHYD

[chutingstar 1]

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And since it was the Skyhook 2 with the 2 clear plastic plates, it didn't need to be tacked through the bridle itself.

And when it was the original Skyhook without the plastic plates, it was the red lanyard itself that was tacked to the bridle with seal thread...not a piece of seal thread through/around the hook and through the bridle.

Bonus points on the rigger's so-called "interpretation" of the manual...yikes.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[Andy9o8 0]

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are other rigs packed by that rigger going to be checked? seems like a pretty serious issue especially on a student rig... what is the normal course of action over something like this, do you go back and speak to the rigger and teach him what he did wrong?

If they asked my legal opinion I'd advise them "definitely yes" to Q#1, and "probably yes" to Q#2. But I'm not a rigger or instructor, nor have I run a DZ or been an S&TA, so for a strictly skydiving-industry opinion, I'd defer to the guys with the credentials.

[pchapman 262]

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are other rigs packed by that rigger going to be checked? seems like a pretty serious issue especially on a student rig... what is the normal course of action over something like this, do you go back and speak to the rigger and teach him what he did wrong?

There typically are formal procedures through the USPA or CSPA or what have you. But in practice, without something extreme going on, one tends to talk to the rigger to sort things out before bumping it up a level. That can work well in case of honest errors or people getting a little sloppy or not knowing better.

When I don't think someone would be very receptive to criticism, I've for example talked to the DZO who hired the rigger or where the rigger has apparently been active.

I can't say it is a perfect system in practice. It does deal with issues, without trying to overblow things but can also mean repeated issues are hidden from view of others. In the end one has to use judgment and one's conscience about what to do and how to do it.


Oh yeah, the staging loop bungee on that rig went through both backpad grommets (like the closing loop does) instead of just one (as in the manual). It would work fine but again it is evidence of not giving any attention to the manual.

[stratostar 5]

wow, we all know how shitty most manuals have been over the years with crappy photos and drawings to go by, and if you've never seen a new XYZ whatever or how it is done, sometimes it can be pretty hard to understand what the factory is trying to say.

Now in the more recent years the images and manuals have gotten better a lot better, however with a few going to cd now, I always thought it would be way better of the companies to produce a video step by step deal and pack it with factory tips, after all not every one can go PIA or the factory and it would help out a lot of people around the world when a company like UPT starts to send out something so new like the skyhook, even if someone didn't read or understand english they more then likely could still follow the "recorded live" packing video. This would be cheap and easy to do and like a VASST'ly wise video company dose these other guys could release tid bits or updates on youtube.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Remster 26]

And I still remember some poster telling me the Skyhook is so simple that it did not add any new potential problem.

ANY increase in complexity of a system adds failure modes.

If you get a Skyhook (and by all means, go for it after you do your research) make sure you understand that like any backup system, it does have drawbacks.

Remster

[RIGGER 0]

Who said rigging is simple ?

All goes to the rigging training system & the way the rigger act & have the willing to study after having the ticket.

Skyhook is simple all time you follow the manual & understand the system - if a rigger does not know to secure the skyhook with 1 turn of Red Seal thread = he never read the manual.

We have toady the Skyhook & the Staging loop system which more details to take care - all is simple if the manual is there.

In the past I found a rig which came from the USA & the the red lanyard was NOT hand tacked at all !!!

I wonder how many riggers knows & check the skyhook spec. when inspecting the free bag, like distance of center of the hook from top of bag & from center of hook to the end of bridle - original skyhook & skyhook 2 ??? old Red lanyard vs. NEW Red lanyard, how many still pack with the old red lanyard ???

So easy to be a Rigger - So hard to be a good rigger !!!

Nice Catch

[Southern_Man 0]

A newbie question: Would the reserve still deploy normally using the reserve handle? Or would the thread interfere w/ that as well?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[RIGGER 0]

Hi

4 turns of the red cotton thread at that point might create a release problem in a total mal. it might be a problem for the reserve p/c releasing the hook from the red lanyard - "Skyhook Lock"

Maybe UPT did tests in the past - any comment / info. from UPT ?

Be Safe !!!

[NovaTTT 2]

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A newbie question: Would the reserve still deploy normally using the reserve handle? Or would the thread interfere w/ that as well?

(1) Perhaps.
(2) Yes.


For the purpose of this discussion, we'll say the Skyhook is attached to approximately the center (lengthwise) of the reserve bridle. A ripcord pull will release the pilot chute and the bridle will pay-out normally to the Skyhook attachment point.

If the 4x thread doesn't break, the bridle is then attached to the harness by the Skyhook vis the RSL. There might be enough drag on the bag-end of the bridle for the freebag to be extracted and the reserve deploy. But there is still the freebag/bridle/pilot chute attached by the Skyhook & RSL.

Thoughts of entanglements and nasty deployments come to mind.

The examination of this 4x attachment is speculative, although 50 lbs force, while it may not seem like much, certainly could inhibit, retard or prevent a clean reserve deployment.

I'd also like to know if UPT experimented with multiple turns of thread and what were the results of those tests.

Mark Klingelhoefer might know. Are you following this thread, Mark?

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[hackish 8]

Yesterday I had a discussion with some of the UPT folk about this exact thing. They mentioned that they had tested it under a number of different conditions including using E-Thread instead of rigger's seal. The unit still functioned correctly with the E-Thread. Dunno about 4 wraps of it!

-Michael

[buff 0]

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wow, we all know how shitty most manuals have been over the years with crappy photos and drawings to go by, and if you've never seen a new XYZ whatever or how it is done, sometimes it can be pretty hard to understand what the factory is trying to say.

Now in the more recent years the images and manuals have gotten better a lot better, however with a few going to cd now, I always thought it would be way better of the companies to produce a video step by step deal and pack it with factory tips, after all not every one can go PIA or the factory and it would help out a lot of people around the world when a company like UPT starts to send out something so new like the skyhook, even if someone didn't read or understand english they more then likely could still follow the "recorded live" packing video. This would be cheap and easy to do and like a VASST'ly wise video company dose these other guys could release tid bits or updates on youtube.

Not a rigger but I do own a V3 with a Skyhook. The graphics on its operation are plain and easy to understand (my gf who is not a jumper gets it) and the packing manual is very clear.

That said, I alway take the skyhook packing manual to my rigger when I get a repack. I use the same person always and he's packed alot of skyhooks but all the same, its my ass if and when I need it and I don't want to end up with the above.

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[billbooth 10]

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Hi

4 turns of the red cotton thread at that point might create a release problem in a total mal. it might be a problem for the reserve p/c releasing the hook from the red lanyard - "Skyhook Lock"

Maybe UPT did tests in the past - any comment / info. from UPT ?

Be Safe !!!

We did test with 4 turns of red cotton thread, as well as two turns of nylon "e" thread. Because the slowest you can be traveling after jumping from an airplane is about 60 knots, and the Vector reserve pilot chute pulls well over 50 lbs. at that speed, the break cord, even when grossly overdone did not cause a problem. As a matter of fact, in almost every total malfunction scenario, you would be traveling at least 120 mph, and the pilot chute would be generating 120 lbs. of force, or enough to break even 6 or 7 turns of cotton thread...and that many turns is nearly impossible to get through the holes in the plastic Skyhook cover. The most we have come across in repacks at the shop is two turns of red cotton thread.

That said, it could be argued that you could have a problem doing an emergency exit on your reserve, at low altitude, from a balloon, if your rigger tied in 4 turns of thread. However, you should check the force required to remove your reserve freebag from your reserve container in a head high attitude with your main container and tuck tab riser covers both closed (as they would be in a total malfunction or emergency reserve pull). It would probably take about 4 seconds of towing your reserve pilot chute, after doing a hop and pop from a zero velocity (balloon) exit before the bag would leave the container, improperly rigged Skyhook of not.

So in other words, the Skyhook system, even when improperly packed with four turns of thread, would not make things any worst, even in the balloon emergency exit situation.

[stratostar 5]

That's good to know, thanks for posting on your findings.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[RIGGER 0]

Thanks for the input.

I know it was tested & I know why you went to 1 turn of cotton red seal thread.

The 4 turns might be an issue at low speed / low altitude exit with the skyhook release time which might be critical at low speed / low altitude.

Bill's post is not an approval for rigging like that.

Cheers

[skydiverek 60]

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However, you should check the force required to remove your reserve freebag from your reserve container in a head high attitude with your main container and tuck tab riser covers both closed (as they would be in a total malfunction or emergency reserve pull). It would probably take about 4 seconds of towing your reserve pilot chute, after doing a hop and pop from a zero velocity (balloon) exit before the bag would leave the container, improperly rigged Skyhook of not.

What about the same scenario with magnetic riser covers?