voodew1 0 #1 September 2, 2004 I am trying to find out how many people would like to try a wingsuit at the Casa Boogie. As of right now I have a Classic 1-- 5'10" 160lbs Classic 1 - 6' 200lbs GTI 6'1" 180lbs GTI 5'8" 235lbs and a couple of others The fee will be my slot and your slot plus (since all of these suits are loaned by jumpers at the boogie) a requested jump ticket for the owner of the suit. The approx $60 price will include ground training and 1 in air evaulation/coaching with video(no guarantee on the video) You must meet current USPA guidelines --200 jumps within 18 months and have the proper style rig. I will be arriving early Sat morning and leaving Sun at dark. Let me know if you are interested and qualified. The suit sizes above will fit most people unless you are extremely small or large. The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #2 September 2, 2004 That's awesome - Looks like I will have to try - Gotta check the financials. Anyone wanna buy a Turtle?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #3 September 2, 2004 Dude, don't put yourself up for sale, just offer a couple of cheap loaners. witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #4 September 2, 2004 CHEAP being the key word.... I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #5 September 2, 2004 I have been asked to tell everyone that I am not a BMI --- I am a USPA AFFI and Coach -- I have taught numerous first jump classes for wingsuits and introduced a number of people to wingsuit flights- but I am not a BMI! Hope this clarifies everything. Pricing is $20 less than a BMI would charge. Ground school free Your slot plus my slot --approx $40 The use of privately owned suits --1 jump ticket to the owner (which he or she has the right to waive) The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #6 September 2, 2004 QuoteI have taught numerous first jump classes for wingsuits and introduced a number of people to wingsuit flights- but I am not a BMI! No worries dude. BM was too good to hook us up with a BMI and demos, aparently they're not like the rest of the industry when it comes to boogies. RWS is coming to the AOTMB since they know they'll get business by showing off their Skyhook and being there. BM wants to charge quite a bit of money to have a setup at a boogie and have a BMI there, in addition to the money charged for rentals and courses.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #7 September 2, 2004 Hey Jason! Got anything pint sized? See you there. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #8 September 2, 2004 Due to the overwhelming demand for "pint sized" suits I am in the process of having a length shorting system attached to the legs of my classic 1. I should be able to get down around 5' 2" ish. If it works like I think I will modify the back of the suit to make it tigher in the chest area. The draw back to this is I only have 1 suit I can modify and it will only go smaller-- not bigger than original. Brit - think I can fit you - you've flown one before haven't you? The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #9 September 2, 2004 As for Birdman they sent out an email to see if any of the BMI's would attend. The only response I got was from Scott(Lou Diamond) who wanted to come but is not available. The wingsuit just isn't very popular in the big state of Texas---I hope to change that one day!!!! The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #10 September 2, 2004 Usual fee is BM's flight, hotel and transport fees. Plus shipping on the demo suits. Ask a jumpsuit maker to make the trip out and see their responce. Probally the same. The profit margins on suits is small enough that unless they have a chance to sell a lot its not profitable for them to go. If BM would offer more BMI courses that are affordable they would'nt have this issue. I just have a really really hard time caughing up $300 for a course when I know I'll never charge for a ground school. More people would take the course if it was less expensive to do.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 September 2, 2004 Quote Usual fee is BM's flight, hotel and transport fees. Plus shipping on the demo suits. Ask a jumpsuit maker to make the trip out and see their responce. Probally the same. The profit margins on suits is small enough that unless they have a chance to sell a lot its not profitable for them to go. Due to the price range and type, I place BM in the catagory with canopy manufactures. We want to encourage BM jumps in Texas, we want to help them sell some suits and they want to charge us for it. We can't really afford to do that, so FIDO, they're not coming to the boogie as a company. Obviously we'll have people being introduced to wingsuit jumps without them... Basically I was hugely disappointed in how the company responded. Especially since other gear manufactures are motivated to come to our boogie and they're not charging us to come sell their gear.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #12 September 2, 2004 I have to agree with Dave on this one. Birdman wants jumpers to buy their suit. To get jumpers to buy their suit they must advertise. Advertising is not cheap. The BMIs need to find out why they are BMIs-is it for the money? If so I don't understand! It should be because they want others to experience what they love. The BMIs get the bonus of a free jump and money for the ground school-plus if they sell suits they get points towards a free suit of any size which they can keep or sell. If the BMI truly loves what he or she does than you should talk to the company that gave you the rating and tell them to help with travel arrangements. There are a few new up and coming wingsuit companies, the competition should help. Will there be a PFI(Pheonix Fly Instructor) or a MSI (Matter Suit Instructor) if so I wouldn't want a instructor who works for birdman to also be an instructor for a competitor. Maybe these companies will look at sending instructors to boogies to sell suits because they don't own the market any more!!!! Sorry to rant on The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #13 September 2, 2004 QuoteBM was too good to hook us up with a BMI and demos, aparently they're not like the rest of the industry when it comes to boogies. Dude, in all fairness here, don't you think your going off unwarranted here? You and I talked about this about 6 months ago I believe and I told you I would try to make it if possible. Unfortunately , I cannot make it and there isn't anyone else available. Do you honestly think all the manufacturers go to all the boogies? It's impossible both logistically and financially even for the big dogs to do.There are plenty of BMIs out there, quite a few on this site in fact, that would be glad to go to the boogie if they could I'm sure. Just because no one is going to be there doesn't mean we didn't want to go. As for price, what does it take to bring someone in to do a FF or RW camp? Last time I checked airfare costs money as does lodging and expenses. You will pay anywhere from $70-85 plus slots for a coach jump depending on where you go. A BMI is going to spend 20-30 mins of intense ground training with a person before they even get in the air. If you break it down your paying $30 for the ground course, $10 for suit rental and $20 for in air coaching and debrief, some times with video. You will not find a cheaper coach dive from anyone worth their weight than that. If you think BMIs are making money hand over fist you are greatly mistaken. If you don't believe me ask some of them here on the site. Many barely break even if at all and many travel on their own dime and time. So yeah, I think the fee is appropriate and the BMIs have given up enough of their own time and energy to be able to at least recoup some of what they have put into it. From the manufacturers stand point, boogies other than the major ones, they are almost guaranteed to loose money even if they sell a few items because of associated costs of being there. Manufacturers don't make money from sales at the boogies, they make it from everyday sales and often times make more from military contracts than sport. So lets keep things in perspective here and be a little bit more realistic about this whole situation. Dave you tried to arrange for there to be an official presence and Jason has gone out of his way to provide suits and offer his time in lieu of that. Once I can quit my day job and do what I want, I guarantee you I will be making a state wide tour of all the Texas DZs."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #14 September 2, 2004 ***Once I can quit my day job and do what I want, I guarantee you I will be making a state wide tour of all the Texas DZs. Hurry up you don't need a fricken job anyway The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #15 September 2, 2004 Maybe I am. QuoteJust because no one is going to be there doesn't mean we didn't want to go. That wasn't the impression we got from the company. That's where my opinion comes from. QuoteYou and I talked about this about 6 months ago I believe and I told you I would try to make it if possible. Yeah, I remember, I was really hoping to see you make it, when you said you couldn't, we went to the company to see who else could make it. Basically it comes down the company isn't helping out the BMIs very much in how they're handling things. Scott, Guys like you are kicking ass and going out of their way to make sure that your love of wingsuit flying is spread far and wide. I know that this is usually at your expense, that's pretty badass that you love something enough to do that. Basically, I apolgize Scott, I'm not disappointed in you or the other BMIs, I'm disappointed in the lack of support that it seems you get from the company. QuoteOnce I can quit my day job and do what I want, I guarantee you I will be making a state wide tour of all the Texas DZs They're never going let you go and you know it.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeNnEjEnN 0 #16 September 3, 2004 I'll be there & I want to play... Looks like you'll have a suit that will fit alright - 5'10 145 lbs... Jeni!------------------------------------------- "Scars remind you that the past is real..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #17 September 3, 2004 QuoteI'll be there & I want to play... Looks like you'll have a suit that will fit alright - 5'10 145 lbs... Jeni! After watching you track on Sunday morning, you don't NEED a wingsuit Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #18 September 3, 2004 QuoteThe BMIs need to find out why they are BMIs-is it for the money? If so I don't understand! It should be because they want others to experience what they love. maybe it's for their love of both skydiving and money. what about freefly coaches? what's their primary motivation? money or their love for their sport? Quoteif so I wouldn't want a instructor who works for birdman to also be an instructor for a competitor. why not? i would think that a wingsuit instructor that represents the sport of wing suit flying instead of just one particular company would be better. the instructor's opinions would become unbiased and potential wingsuit customers could get a better idea of which suit is best from them from an unbiased instructor. And the incentives for being an instructor would be better because the incentives would come from more than one manufacturer. but in reality i don't think this could ever happen. instructor ratings would turn into sponsorships and would once again lead to biased opinions. QuoteMaybe these companies will look at sending instructors to boogies to sell suits because they don't own the market any more!!!! what market? the world wide market for wingsuits doesn't even compare to the skydiving market in the US. Skydiving is already a pretty small market. My question is why are BMI's needed to introduce someone to wing suits? I have a classic 1 that will be available for anyone that wants to try it providing that someone can stand their landings up (solid white suit). The suit is sized for 5'8" and 130 - 140lbs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voodew1 0 #19 September 3, 2004 Quotewhy not? i would think that a wingsuit instructor that represents the sport of wing suit flying instead of just one particular company would be better. the instructor's opinions would become unbiased and potential wingsuit customers could get a better idea of which suit is best from them from an unbiased instructor. And the incentives for being an instructor would be better because the incentives would come from more than one manufacturer. but in reality i don't think this could ever happen. instructor ratings would turn into sponsorships and would once again lead to biased opinions. The BMI (Birdman Instructor) is already a sponsorship they have incentive to sell one brand. The incentive is a free $1500 suit. Quote what market? the world wide market for wingsuits doesn't even compare to the skydiving market in the US. Skydiving is already a pretty small market. The wingsuit market which is its own little part of the skydiving market--People wanting to buy a wingsuit are a seperate market just as someone wanting to buy a crossbraced canopy. Do you plan to jump your wing suit or just loan it out -- because we have enough for a good size flocking dive----lets fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #20 September 3, 2004 QuotePricing is $20 less than a BMI would charge.Hey, I am a BMI and I charge $10 less than you ($20 if it's my own suit). I WIN! Regardless, get some new birds in the air. I do have to commend you for organizing demo suits and instruction by polling your own resources. That's not an easy task. If you have any questions on running the FFC, be sure to contact the BMIs over at Bird-Man.com's BMI forum. QuoteDue to the overwhelming demand for "pint sized" suits I am in the process of having a length shorting system attached to the legs of my classic 1. No need! Just fold the booties up into the leg. Voila -- instant short suit! It will fly just fine. This is -- ahem -- one of the many nuggets of knowledge us BMIs have. QuoteBM was too good to hook us up with a BMI and demos, aparently they're not like the rest of the industry when it comes to boogies.PD doesn't send 20 demo canopies without a rep. Nor does Icarus. Nor does anyone. There is a tight relationship between manufacturers and their reps. It wouldn't make sense to send $10,000 in merchandise off to a "stranger". On top of that, there's a good six month waiting list for demos for BMIs. I scored some of the demo fleet for mid-September by making a request in early March! Jari, Kim, amd Erika are extremely kind and would love to send wingsuits to everyone in the world. The resources just aren't there. I don't get why BirdMan, of all companies, has so many customers that bash them. The irony is that BirdMan is one of the kinder and more generous companies out there. As far the whole BMI/money thing, I don't get that either. EVERYTHING in this sport costs a lot of money. Canopy and H/C companies can do free demos because they have the resources. The price of the gear offsets the costs of their promotions. Also, the gear can be a lot less custom. Your body shape and size doesn't warrant a super-custom canopy size. A wingsuit company is about as niche as you can get, suits need to be fitted (more or less), and the resources simply are NOT there. QuoteWill there be a PFI(Pheonix Fly Instructor) or a MSI (Matter Suit Instructor) if so I wouldn't want a instructor who works for birdman to also be an instructor for a competitor.Our own diablopilot is an official intructor for Matter, as well as a BMI. There are also a couple schools in Europe for the S-Fly. So, yes, there are instructors for specific companies. You probably won't be flying a PF suit until you already know how to fly something else, so I doubt there'd be an instructor program. Quotethe instructor's opinions would become unbiased and potential wingsuit customers could get a better idea of which suit is best from them from an unbiased instructor.Each suit is rigged and flown a bit differently, so it's important to have knowledge of individual products before instructing anyone in their use. Otherwise, this is a good call, Levin. Does a canopy coach only give advice on one type of canopy (well, some do, but that's a different story)? No. QuoteMy question is why are BMI's needed to introduce someone to wing suits?Safety and fun. An experienced and properly trained BMI will make your first flight both as safe and fun as possible. If you aren't flying the suit properly, you won't have as much fun. We like to give students the feeling of flight right from the start by teaching them to fly properly. When it comes to safety, we eliminate guesswork in terms of rigging, pilot briefing, exiting, navigation, flight, deployment, and emergencies. I never had a FFC, by a BMI or anyone else. Now, approaching 500 flights and being a BMI myself, I wish I'd had one. I see my students fly as well on their first flight as I did on my 200th. TALONSKY and I had to figure it out on our own. The late, great Dwain Weston was there, as well, but even he only had 50 flights when we first started. The difference between a first flight with a BMI and without one is stark. Don't feel like you need to do everything on your own. And don't put on this anti-BMI or anti-BirdMan thing. Been there -- bad idea. I gave FFCs before I was a BMI, too. I got on the phone with BirdMan for advice and got great information. Then I took the BMIC -- invaluable. BMIs WILL help you the best we can. Patch or no patch, we are all for getting new birds in the air, and I think it's awesome that you've put this together. Have fun at the AOT boogie!"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #21 September 3, 2004 QuoteThe BMI (Birdman Instructor) is already a sponsorship they have incentive to sell one brand. The incentive is a free $1500 suit.Unless you have giant logos on the wings, BirdMan doesn't sell a $1,500 suit. There are personal incentives to becoming a BMI, but there is no exclusivity. I can buy a MTR2 and work to become an instructor for Matter, receiving those benefits, as well. I could cruise over to Spain and try to hook up with a Babylon and become a rep for S-Fly, as well. Most BMIs get the title for access to demo resources and instruction knowledge because they love flying a wingsuit and sharing their passion with others. Also, the point system really isn't enough for BMIs to go do a hard sell to anyone. The points I've received have ALL been from people that planned on buying a suit from BirdMan, anyway. I just took them on their flight and helped them order/measured them up. And I do tell people about competitor's products! I don't talk bad, either. I might do that on here , but with students, I do inform them of what's out there, where they can go to learn more, and who they can talk to for details and ordering info. We're not the bad guys. Seriously. We might charge for our time at boogies, but that doesn't make us bad people. QuoteBasically it comes down the company isn't helping out the BMIs very much in how they're handling things.As a BMI that utilizes BirdMan maybe more than I should, I strongly disagree. It comes down to a giant interest in wingsuit flight and a small demo fleet. That's it. BirdMan works hard for us. There's a LOT that they do that people don't know about. They hook BMIs up with individuals. A lot of BMIs (myself including) are willing to make big treks to get one new bird in the sky. With all the work they're putting into R&D and orders, I commend them on still being able to handle BMI's requests."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #22 September 4, 2004 QuoteThe BMI (Birdman Instructor) is already a sponsorship they have incentive to sell one brand. The incentive is a free $1500 suit. if so, why do the BMI's need extra incentive to work towards a free suit? shouldn't they already have their free suit? if not, what were they sponsored? a title? sponsorships are usually limited. they awarded based on your much better than average performance in a sport. you can lose a sponsorship if somebody else surfaces that is better than you and/or can promote a product better. sponsorships aren't for sale for $300. A BMI is not a sponsorship, it is a rating. Once a BMI, always a BMI. And like any other dealer they get incentives for selling alot of products. QuoteThe wingsuit market which is its own little part of the skydiving market--People wanting to buy a wingsuit are a seperate market just as someone wanting to buy a crossbraced canopy. True, but everybody needs 2 canopies. Not everyone needs a wingsuit. The major manufacturers make more off their military contracts than they do sport canopies. Wingsuit companies will never have the market or the resuorces that canopy manufacturers have. Wingsuit companies financially cannot do all the things a canopy manufacturer can do such as promotional events. QuoteDo you plan to jump your wing suit or just loan it out -- because we have enough for a good size flocking dive----lets fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mostly loan it out but I may use it once or twice. Depends on what's going on. Mostly plan on freeflying and flying my fx. I use a spectre 120 with the bird-suit. For me the spectre is greatly reliable but just too boring. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Levin 0 #23 September 4, 2004 QuoteSafety and fun. An experienced and properly trained BMI will make your first flight both as safe and fun as possible. If you aren't flying the suit properly, you won't have as much fun. We like to give students the feeling of flight right from the start by teaching them to fly properly. When it comes to safety, we eliminate guesswork in terms of rigging, pilot briefing, exiting, navigation, flight, deployment, and emergencies. i understand the advantages of a ffc and a bmi. i meant the question to voodew1 in a different context. what i was getting at was that bird-man isn't able to do all the promo stuff that other gear manufacturers can do. there is no point in bashing them publicly. a fleet of demo suits and instructors isn't neccessary, it's a novelty. perhaps i should have said "My question is why are BMI's neccessary to introduce someone to wing suits?" if someone feels wronged that a manufacturer couldn't provide a certain service then perhaps the better course of action would be a boycott rather than publicly bashing them. By boycott i mean recommending Matter suit or something else to those he turns on to wingsuits at the boogie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeNnEjEnN 0 #24 September 4, 2004 hehehe... I still want to play... any chance I could rent the suit for like the whole weekend...?? I love tracking! C-ya @ AOT! Jeni!------------------------------------------- "Scars remind you that the past is real..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #25 September 4, 2004 All this time and I still haven't taken my GTi out of a rear-tailgate aircraft. Just Cessna's and an Otter. This is gonna be a goooood boogie!Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
