Had a Bag Lock?

[faulknerwn 36]

None that go through grommits on the bag. Normally all others

if for some reason I feel that the rubber band is tight or it's too close to the end I'll do like one and a half first one normal but the second only barely over the end. So more tension than single but not so much as a full double.

[danielcroft 2]

I have small single wrapped rubber bands in the locking stows and large double wrapped rubber bands for the rest.

A friend of mine had a bag lock this past weekend where some of the lines had managed to come out of the stow & some stayed in. It looked as though there wasn't enough pressure on the remaining lines to pull them from the stow. I believe it was double stowed but I will have to check on that. I'll also have to see if she was packing for herself or was using a packer. She usually packs for herself but I'm not sure on this occasion. She only has about 50 jumps.

[peek 20]

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...if for some reason I feel that the rubber band is tight or it's too close to the end I'll do like one and a half first one normal but the second only barely over the end. So more tension than single but not so much as a full double.

That's a good point. You know what you are doing. You are making small adjustments that work.

What I object to is people just saying, "Double stow your lines, with no mention of which stows, and how to properly do it."

[timmyfitz 0]

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I am a packer and have thousands of pack jobs. Once and awhile I double stow and like I said.. yes it can be done if you do it properly.

I am not a packer but have packed thousands of times too. I double stow all of the time. No bag lock. If you make the line stows excessively long then you increase your chances of a malfunction. But that would be caused by improper packing technique, not double stows.

I am kicking myself in the ass for not taking pictures of the cutaway we had at our DZ two years ago from a student packing his rig with double stows. He let too much line get inbetween his stows and did not overlap the rubber bands right dead square on top of one another like they should be.

Double stows didn't cause the problem. Improper packing did.

Ask anyone at Central Michigan Skydivers that was there. Scott Schlosser, Rick DeShano (S&TA), Warren Cleary, Myself and a half dozen other people.

One case does not make for proof.

It can be done a thousand times, sure.. if you do it right it will not cause a malfunction but we are not talking about if you do it right.

So you are saying if you do not pack correctly, it may cause a malfunction. Hmm, didn't know that.

I bet PD would even say that if a double stow were done wrong it could cause a bag lock.

Correct, if it were done wrong then it may cause a bag lock. But the bag lock would not be caused by the double stow but from improper packing.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL THE TIME PEOPLE!!! I AM TALKING ABOUT CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. IF DONE UNPROPERLY IT CAN HAPPEN.

Yep, if you pack "unproperly" then a lot of malfunctions can happen. But if you pack properly, even double stows, your chances of a malfunction go way down.

[rushmc 18]

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Please keep this to ONLY your personal experiences.

If you've had a bag lock, I would be curious to hear your best assessment of the root cause and other contributing factors.

Blue ones,
JW

I had one. I was using Super Banz. Crossed a stow the and band would not break.

I went back to regular rubber bands

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[fcajump 153]

Interesting trend:
"WARNING: Completely unscientific analysis and results based on an unscientific/flawed poll"


Method / Total Using / Lock rate (number locked/total using method)
Single wrapped rubber band / 79 / 21%
Double wrapped rubber band / 73 / 12%
Single wrapped tube stowes / 36 / 16%
Double wrapped tube stowes / 8/ 25%
Other / 10 / 30%


Now, even I can poke gaping holes in the statists here... but its interesting looking at big picture summaries, even if inaccurate.


Tells me a few things:

........1- YOU CAN HAVE A BAG LOCK USING ANY METHOD!!!

........2- Argues that double wrapping rubber bands might not be THAT bad
(though I would NOT double wrap my locking stowes)

........3- Argues that single wrapped tube stowes might not be THAT bad

NOTE: I am NOT telling you what to do.
This does not take into account how many jumps/deployments were made using each method, band/stowe age, the resulting tension, bite size, packer experience, line type, canopy size/weight, deployment speeds, pilot chute size/type/age/style, container type, packer sobriety, etc...

But to review:

YOU CAN HAVE A BAG LOCK USING ANY METHOD!!!

Thanks!

Jim - Who usually double wraps tube stowes (single wrap on locking stowes) on his 200 ft^2 0-p canopies and using a short bite, "split stowe" method at the final stowes and replacing the stowes when they brake... but is always wanting to learn more and question his own assumptions.

DONT do it my way because I do, do it your way because you learned about your gear and have determined that it worked best in your situation. If they're the same, great! But its OK if not.

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[azureriders 0]

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What I object to is people just saying, "Double stow your lines, with no mention of which stows, and how to properly do it."

Great point. I hope you, nor anyone else, took any of my comments in a way that put me into that catergory.

I psycho pack and do so very tightly so when i bag, the canopy is normally rolled tight enough that the grommets on the bag come nearly to the band attachment points. This leaves my locking stows with very little tension so I double wrap them, carefully. If I pack something that leaves the packing stows with proper tension with a single stow, then single stows they get.

[hookitt 0]

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Why in the hell would you double stow when you can just put on a smaller rubber band and eliminate the chance of anyone even possibly being lazy or sloppy??

.

Small rubber bands suck plain and simple. Large rubber bands are so much easier to use and replace. I promise I have more pack jobs too :)

All the rest of your posts, I'm too lazy to quote everything and reply to it.

I'm not bashing on you, so I hope that's understood. I'd love to take you up on watching you pack me a mal. If it's a reasonable act, meaning, someone would mistake the procedure as the way to do it, then I'm all for it. Even if it's done incorrectly, it's still very diffecult to make a double stow cause any issue at all.

Too bad we are states away because I'm always up to share ideas.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[dresherr 0]

Thanks

Packing is fun for me (at times )
I like to mess around and do different things to see what it does. I am all for someone showing me new tricks.

I would LOVE to have someone let me pack them a mal. I know it is very hard. I agree with that. Aside from sewing things together it is a hassel but why not spice up my life? If I didn't have to pay for a repack I would be having fun on my own rig.

[lippy 771]

I've had two baglocks. I'm pretty sure I was double-stowing at the time, but it was a while ago.

The first one was a hop-n-pop sunset from 3K and low speed deployment. I was able to shake it out and was under canopy by 2K, with a shiteload of line twists.

The second was a terminal deployment and I was also able to shake it out, but the line twists that built up while the bag was spinning over my head turned into a spinning main malfunction and I chopped it.

Not really 100% sure what caused either. I've done plenty of low speed deployments since and haven't changed packing method. Luckily haven't had anymore problems.

I got nuthin

[aatomm 0]

Actually there is excellent video document about packing PD canopies. Gay from PD (Scott Miller) at 36:45 said that if you use large rubber bans you need to wrap it twice!!!
Link was posted at DZForum http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3122872;search_string=packing%20video;#3122872

I use this method, large bands, double wrapped, single wrapped for locks because it is tight enough due to canopy and container size. Never experience problem because of that, and hope it will stay as is:)
backwards, long time ago I have very ugly line dump > line twist (and nice reserve ride) because of single wrapped rubber bands. Simple, you can not use single wrapped large rubber bands on nowadays tinny lines.

[fcajump 153]

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Actually there is excellent video document about packing PD canopies. Gay from PD (Scott Miller) at 36:45 said that if you use large rubber bans you need to wrap it twice!!!
Link was posted at DZForum http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3122872;search_string=packing%20video;#3122872

I use this method, large bands, double wrapped, single wrapped for locks because it is tight enough due to canopy and container size. Never experience problem because of that, and hope it will stay as is:)
backwards, long time ago I have very ugly line dump > line twist (and nice reserve ride) because of single wrapped rubber bands. Simple, you can not use single wrapped large rubber bands on nowadays tinny lines.

Yea, I thought about including line type and band size, but it was going to get to be too much... then we also get into bite size and unstowed line length preferences... number of jumps using each method...

Seems to me that with the number of variables, a complete study, especially considering the actual low failure rate would take a lot more sampling than we're ever going to get here.

Thanks! Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[sundevil777 93]

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long time ago I have very ugly line dump > line twist (and nice reserve ride) because of single wrapped rubber bands. Simple, you can not use single wrapped large rubber bands on nowadays tinny lines.

You don't actually know what caused your "dump". It may have been that the rubber bands were already broken - it can easily happen while your rig is packed and you won't even know it, or the bands may have broken while the bag was lifting off the container. That is why I am such a big advocate of tube stows for the critical locking stows, because they are so much more resistant to breaking. Anyway, I think if you're going to use rubber bands, what is important is appropriate tension. My rig required large bands, single wrapped because the canopy was a little bit large for the d-bag. To say that you can't use single wrapped large bands with the typical small diameter lines nowadays is to not recognize all that contributes to the proper tension.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[aatomm 0]

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long time ago I have very ugly line dump > line twist (and nice reserve ride) because of single wrapped rubber bands. Simple, you can not use single wrapped large rubber bands on nowadays tinny lines.

You don't actually know what caused your "dump". It may have been that the rubber bands were already broken - it can easily happen while your rig is packed and you won't even know it, or the bands may have broken while the bag was lifting off the container. That is why I am such a big advocate of tube stows for the critical locking stows, because they are so much more resistant to breaking. Anyway, I think if you're going to use rubber bands, what is important is appropriate tension. My rig required large bands, single wrapped because the canopy was a little bit large for the d-bag. To say that you can't use single wrapped large bands with the typical small diameter lines nowadays is to not recognize all that contributes to the proper tension.

Actually, I know! I was stupid, I newer ask someone experienced about my doubt with rubber bands and too much space around lines / almost no tension! I don't know how many times I jump like this, before I have reserve ride, but I know that I was wondering how strange/hard openings I have!!! Now I know About tubes for locking stows, I am on completely other side. We do not need hard breakable thing on locking stows. Yes it is much more resistant and potentially better candidate for bag lock! It is safer and cheaper to change rubbers. I got nice tubes on some competition and immediately donate them to first tubes lover I found

[mjosparky 3]

With all this talk about the proper size stow bands, the length of the stows, double wrapping, proper tension and on and on makes me wonder how a reserve ever makes it to full deployment with the ridiculous way the lines are stowed. And OMG the close the bag with non-breakable closing loops.
Skydiving myths are alive and well.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals