Skydiver dies from gear alteration, DZ.commer faces criminal charges! (HYPOTHETICAL)

[NightJumper 0]

This WILL be the headline someday unfortunately. The article will read something like: After viewing the helmet and ground video and hearing testimony from witnesses including FAA master riggers and the factory that the skydiver was killed as a result of making changes to the gear following the advice given by XXXXX on DZ.com, the grand jury recommends criminal charges against XXXXX. This recommendation came after the prosecution showed that XXXXX had no FAA riggers certificate, factory training, and authorization from the same or any other professional experience related to the gear. The prosecution also sowed copies of the posts to the jury. The defense contends that XXXXX is a professional authority because they work part time on the weekends at a local drop zone as a tandem instructor (example only). The family has also filled a civil suit in circuit court. Get the idea of what could happen here?

I have kept quite publicly for far too long and it is time someone speaks up. I have tried to address theses issues by PM’s from time to time with individuals to no avail. Over the last few years I have seen several post here asking questions about training, gear, rigging etc. Too many times the answers that are given are misleading or wrong to the point that it could cause injury or death. Routinely the people giving theses answers have no damn business posting and in fact should also be waiting for the answer too so that they can learn.

If you are not a certified rigger, instructor, factory rep. or expert in the subject matter then take your fingers off of the keyboard and learn something for a change. There are too many new people on here that don’t know better then to ignore you. They see that you have been here a long time and have a lot of post so they think that you know what you are talking about when in fact you are as clueless as they are, or maybe you are just a new as them and they don’t check your profile. Just because you read, saw, witnessed, heard, have a picture, video or Elvis told you, does NOT make you an expert or a professional.

One day when someone gets hurt or killed following your advise and you get sued or criminally charged because you were so smart that you put you wrong advise in writing on a public forum, maybe then you will stop and think before you hit the enter key, but then it will be too late for the poor skydiver that listened to you.

[mx757 4]

you can't protect people from their own stuipity...

[egons 0]

Mike,

Your a good man - and I tell you what? You had me thinking there... just for a second!
I know you have been around for sometime and I fully respect the experiences that you bring to the table - some experience that most would not even believe! I somewhat agreed to disgree in another forum about highlighting individuals, but it is not a bad thing! Guys like you have plenty to offer and if they listened a little more they would learn.

Nice post!

Egon

"Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!"

[FlailingJohn 0]

hi

Do you think a disclaimer in the term of the site would alleviate from such an occurrence and for the Guest to forums and rest of dropzone.com a "splash" page were any guest would have to accept before the entered the site?

A waiver just to read dropzone.com?

something like this but written better

**disclaimer.....Any advice give on Dropzone.com is for informational purposes only. If you have any more questions. It will be best to consult with a licesened USPA(or your country's equivalent) coach or if dealing with gear a licensed F.A.A rigger at a local dropzone.
So please have common since and ask an expert at your dropzone and don't rely on second hand information.
blue skies
John



>
I hate being unemployed

I threw my confidence out the airplane door years ago.........

[PhreeZone 15]

Its all covered in the Terms of Use : http://www.dropzone.com/about/TermsofUse.shtml

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[FlailingJohn 0]

Thank you phree


>

I threw my confidence out the airplane door years ago.........

[PhreeZone 15]

No, don't thank me... I might have just given you totally incorrect advice. Did you look to make sure that I was an authority and subject matter expert on it? Did you verify it by contacting a subject matter expert?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[FlailingJohn 0]

I was just thanking you for pointing out what was already on the website-The terms and conditions. Although to me it seems it is word to protect the authors of the website and not the individual. So i guess it always good for anyone who gives advice on forums to first say "It's best to talk to your coach first or Did you already speak with you rigger or instructor?"


John

>>

I threw my confidence out the airplane door years ago.........

[sid 1]

"or Elvis told you, does NOT make you an expert or a professional. "

you had me with you up to that line Mike, I get most of my good info from The King!!!!!!

Seriously - nice post, maybe a few of'em will listen

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[Hooknswoop 19]

How would this differ from "Parachute Fails and Skydiver Dies after Master Parachute Rigger Alters Parachute"?

Derek

[akarunway 1]

To take advice from this site, well, Darwin's theory comes to mind. Edit to add. There is some really good info on this site. You just have to have the common sense to weed out the bad from the good thru further investigation

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[cocheese 0]

I always tell students to ask 3 more people/instructors the same question before deciding the right way to do things.
I refuse to be a coach, instructor or jump master for personal reasons. I sort of quit giving skydiving advice here long ago and try to stick to the Bon fire to avoid the noid. Not that i know anything about skydiving.haha
Bless those who teach well.
If you can skydive.... thank a jump master .

[bigway 4]

you dont think students should just ask there one instructor and listen to him/her?
I dont think any instructor would appreciate his student listening to a different instructor instead of himself/herself

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[cocheese 0]

I tell them to ask their instructor first. But i don't want anyone in this sport to not ask the questions. And they should get several opinions on things which actually have many answers or no perfect answer.
Your reply to my post is another reason why i dislike posting on the proper way to do things. But i guess if a student sees this, he/she might learn something.

[bigway 4]

i do agree with what you are saying and you are much more experienced than myself. However i am thinking about a student on AFF or static or whatever, i think these students should stick to the instructors that they are asigned to.
If you are talking about a 'novice' off student status then yes, i think they can ask numerous instructors everything....and they should.....and it should be common sense if they were taught anything while being a student they should be aware that the only advise they should take from anyone is the advice of a qualified instructor.

_

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Guest]

Lawrocket will probably weigh in on this one, but it seems to me that the courtroom drama that you hypothesize would more likely be a civil suit filed by the deceased's family against said poster, since the individual being accused took no direct action or inaction with respect to the deceased (modifying equipment), the deceased merely read something on the internet and took the action himself. Said message poster is indirectly responsible, by providing bad advice.

OTOH, if the unqualified person actually performed an action (e.g., made unauthorized modifications to a rig which resulted in a fatality), THEN you'd have a criminal case, IMHO, but it wouldn't be any of this "grand jury" stuff.

Lawrocket probably knows the fancy-pants Latin term for the legal definition of a situation like this. Care to share, Law?

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[riggerrob 558]

I dont think any instructor would appreciate his student listening to a different instructor instead of himself/herself

[cocheese 0]

YAY. Now the point being made is : there is no perfect answer for every type of jumper. Yes Aff students can look at their jumpmaster like he is God.I don't care, but i hope everyone keeps asking questions from those with more experience.... just don't get one opinion, get several.
Best advice I ever received :
Most everything you are going to do has been done, so ask someone who has done it if you have questions.
Peace ..and out.

[bigway 4]

could you really be sued for posting on a web site forum?
If so, can anyone show me a link or a story where this has ever happened before?
I do totally agree that every student should speak to an instructor before taking advice of the internet, but if a student or anyone anywhere was to take advice of the internet without running it past there instructor first, well then they are to blame for stupidity. anyone here could make up a false profile and anyone who takes information from the net should know this or they are plain iggnorant.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[NightJumper 0]

Quote

How would this differ from "Parachute Fails and Skydiver Dies after Master Parachute Rigger Alters Parachute"?

It may or may not, but that is not the point. The point is to try and get people from posting bad information and inform others to be careful of what information they get and verify it. Most master riggers, instructors etc. do not make or recommend the common errors on the forums here that I am addressing and have been made by others. This is probably because of the obvious training, experience and certification that have given them the wisdom to know better. If you ask a gear question here on the forums, who do you want an answer from, a rigger, manufacture, gear store, instructor or someone who has none of the above? Which is more likely to be correct information? Who is more likely to put themselves in a libelous position and get someone hurt?

[happythoughts 0]

Lawsuits are actually a tiny consideraton here, being dead is what I think is the primary item.

I wouldn't want to spend the last 6 seconds of my life thinking, "...perhaps I should have asked my rigger..."

Good post, something for people to think about. Thanks Mike.

[lawrocket 3]

Naw, it probably won't.

Wanna hear what's really scary? They'll look at the card and see who the last person was to do anything to the gear. So the rigger's gonna be why he/she did the modification or why he/she did not catch the mod. Hopefully, the rigger will have kept good enough records to show that he/she had nothing to dowith the modification.

And people who know what they're doing mess up. It happened to Partick de Gayardon making a modification.

I can't see any criminal actions for a poster posting advice. Pretty tough to demonstrate an evil mind, or even negligent mind for the poster.

You know, rigger's certificate, factory training, etc, are no elements in these types of "crimes" (I use this word in quotes because I'm thinking of a crime committed). Shoot, what if the advice was dead on good, but newbie didn't do it properly? In fact, a poster here would have less culpability that a rigger. Sometimes demonstrated mastery of a topic holds you to higher standards.

Under the federal rules, giving someone that direction would not be a violation. If the jumper made the modification himself, it's within the rules. But, if someone who is not a rigger made a modification, it may be a violation (because the CFR only seems to discuss "parachute" from what I've found - not "container" or "harness").

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Hopefully, the rigger will have kept good enough records to show that he/she had nothing to dowith the modification.

How can a rigger keep records of something they didn't do?

Also, the FAR's specifically state you do not need to keep a record of any work done oin a main canopy.

Derek

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

Hopefully, the rigger will have kept good enough records to show that he/she had nothing to dowith the modification.

How can a rigger keep records of something they didn't do?

Also, the FAR's specifically state you do not need to keep a record of any work done oin a main canopy.

Derek

But I bet I know someone who does!

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Viking 0]

So b/c Joe blow on dz.com says that John Public should mod his gear and Joe Blow is such a stupid fuck to not have a rigger do it, that puts John at fault how? Maybe emotionally yes, but your hypothetical case would drop kicked out of court or never even get there b/c the laywers are smart to realize its a very weak case.

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin