What no pin check?

[rgoper 0]

that link is very informative, and makes for great fodder, but i always consider the sources from which it came before i retain any knowledge that may come from such articles.

wanna drill some oil wells? how about we anaylize some reservour contents, utilizing some 3-d tech? we could even disscuss how hp effects ebhp and bhp during an influx of natural gas into the annulas. get where i'm going with this?

consider this my last word on this particular matter.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[skybytch 259]

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as far as your opinions concerning me, if your expressing them for my benefit, your wasting your time, and mine, your opinions are insignificant to me. on the other hand, if your expressing them for your own benifit, carry on then, just don't address me while your doing it.

Umm... I'm confused. You brought the subject up and asked for people's opinions on it. If certain people's opinions on the subject are "insignificant" to you, then why bring it up on a public forum? If you don't care what anyone else says or thinks about it, don't post it here. Seems pretty simple to me...

[PhreeZone 15]

>annulas. get where i'm going with this?

Count me in as lost here....

My impression of that entire article (good link Prof!) was that those that think themselfs to be experts or great at something are more likely to fail since they don't have the understanding of the material or subject that they thought they did. Being an expert in one thing does not by default make you an expert at another thing.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[rgoper 0]

http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html

this link goes beyond opinion, and enters the areas of theory, and conjecture. it was a clear, and consice effort of assualt albeit not in a physical form of nature. if someone wants to call someone else a "dumbass" why not just do it, and get it over with? why try to obscure it with intelligent links of someone else's writings?

and by the way, an "annulas" is the term we utilize for the borehole we drill to retrieve hydrocarbons. (just because you inquired, no other reason)

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[billvon 2,404]

>as far as your opinions concerning me, if your expressing them for
> my benefit, your wasting your time, and mine, your opinions are
> insignificant to me.

Then why did you specifically ask for them? From a previous post of yours:

>i did not turn on my AAD, and i dissconnected my RSL for the balloon
> jump. safe, or not, what is your opinion?

You don't have to take anyone's advice, but it is a bit odd to ask for opinions and then state that you don't care for them.

[Iflyme 0]

I don't want people who are unfamiliar with my gear monkeying around with it. I check my gear before I put it on, and get a gear check from someone I trust on the ground. Once we are in the c-182, I don't like to moving around too much, so I won't ask for a pin check unless I feel I may have have rubbed my container in a way that could move one of my pins.

[kallend 1,634]

Is it possible that you mean "annulus"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,634]

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Prof... is there somewhere that explains Toms story in detail? I've only
heard tidbits but would like to understand the entire events. I've read
enough that I understand Sandys events, but I've never understood
Toms...

Try a Google search of rec.skydiving, it's been discussed over and over there. IIRC, Tom, an outstanding skydiver with all kinds of major achievements to his credit, was seen to turn off his CYPRES before doing a 4-way, and when someone asked why, he replied (parapharase here) "It's only a 4-way". Then he went in, no-pull.


Unfortunately the fatality statistics have a whole bunch of names in there of people who were supremely confident they could and would pull all the handles, but didn't.

[fred 0]

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Answer your question brutha?! Surely you were just trolling, but in a cessna you spend 25 - 35 minutes cramped & moving around trying to stay the least bit comfortable (that is if you can't sleep). You mean to tell me that you don't see any possibility of the pilot-chute getting snagged or the closing pin working itself out!?

Not sure if you were referring to me or the other poster as the troll. I assure you, I'm not trying to troll, and I do like hearing your thoughts.

First, when I was picturing a pin check, I was picturing turning around and having somebody open my closing flap and visually inspecting everything before exit. I feel like this would be a difficult task for somebody my size in the fourth jumper position. I find my most comfortable position when I crawl in, and I can't do much "moving around" once everybody's boarded.

Second, it seems dangerous. Even if I could manage to rotate 90-180° and have jumper #3 open and inspect my closing pin, there's not much room for them to maneuvre, either. It seems that having them open my flap in such a confined space has a greater likelihood of loosening the pin than my fidgeting during the climb. There's also a better chance that the flap won't be as securely closed as it was.

That said, I am constantly checking my handles, hackey, and anything else I can feel during the ride to altitude, and I do a final check before I exit the plane, thus I don't think Skyrose's situation actually applies. Further, I have yet to be on a load where everybody wasn't doing visual checks on everybody else during the climb. You've got 25-35 minutes, you might as well inspect everybody's rig to make sure they didn't do any thing dumb.

Standard disclaimer: I'm still a lowbie. I don't have my A, and don't exit with others all that often. So nobody should take my advice. I welcome and encourage contrary opinions, and would not be embarassed to ask for a check if anything seemed unusual, or if you could convince me that it's (a) possible, and (b) safer.

[skybytch 259]

It's possible, and it's safer.

If you're referring to #4 as sitting back to the pilot the person to your left (what I'd call #1 or jumpmaster) can easily give you a visual check, and with a little effort can check pins too, if you simply lean forward. If you need more room, ask the person at the back of the bus to scoot - don't worry, they will.

If you're referring to #4 as the back of the bus, get up a little earlier and get on your knees. Ask the jumper sitting behind the pilot to give you a check.

There's more "things" to catch on your gear in the typical non-upholstered Cessna jump plane. imho, a gear check is more important in a plane like that than in the typical larger aircraft.

[dayle 0]

The last part of your message I must disagree, it is never unsafe to have a pin check, I don't care what airplane you are in. I'm really just a newbie myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Do you remember when you were a student?? Your instuctor gave you a pin check before you left the plane, guaranteed!!! When they are taking up 3 or 4 students for IAD's, they check every pin. (or at least they should be from my understanding)

It doesn't matter what position they are in. They get a pin check. If you can't or unable to check your own, you shouldn't be exiting the plane without one.

One other thing to a previous post about the pilot chute geting caught. I'm glad that your still with us and I know it's a mistake you wont' make again. Always check your hacky!!! One other thing one of my instuctors told me was to always protect your handles and your hackey. If you are moving around at all in the plane put your free hand on the hackey so it isn't dislodged. Also if you make it a habit to do a full check on jump run, hackey, cutaway, reserve, that problem should never happen again.

Dayle

[Remster 24]

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as far as your opinions concerning me, if your expressing them for my benefit, your wasting your time, and mine, your opinions are insignificant to me. on the other hand, if your expressing them for your own benifit, carry on then, just don't address me while your doing it.

Awsome safety oriented attitude !!!!!!!

And, to those of you who arent up on their recent sport history, reffering to Tom Piras as " VERY EXPERIENCED" is, to use a contemporary figure, kinda like reffering to JC as a good swooper. Not wrong, but awfully understated.

Anyone who feels they cant learn from past errors is doomed to repeat them...

Remster

[kurt 0]

Does'nt mather.
On the end, PUSSY still alive

[drenaline 0]

First of all I would like to ask everybody to STOP posting, talking, writing etc. speculations about Tom Piras accident because you are getting it VERY WRONG and are making others look guilty when it was an accident that could of happen to any of us in those days.

I know the people that were in the plane with Piras (Tom was coaching them), they jump with me every sunday and they are now very talented instructors and jumpers (They where even invited to 300-way world attempts).

From what they have told me Tom Piras had his cypres on, but he forgot to set the altitude of the DZ they where going to land (they left from different airports) so he asked one of the skydivers on the plane to please turn the cypres off because without the proper altitude his cypress would fire to high and cause an accident (He did not said "its only a 4-way", he said "I don't want to get a premature reserve deployment cause of a cypres fire and cause an accident with one of you").

From the video you can see that on his coaching jump somebody went low and unfortunately got a premature deployment (dunno if it was the main or the reserve, but I think I heard that it was the AAD that fired can't remember what brand), Tom hitted the canopy below him with his legs and hitted his head with my friends legs (my friend had his legs numb for a whole week, he even had to go to the doctor), Tom fainted and when the cameraman saw that he tried to reach him to pull his main or reserve but everytime he tried to reach the handle his wings filled with air and kept going up. From EYE witness Tom Piras was knocked out (arms and legs extended all the way up no sign of muscle tension, muscles completely relaxed) all the way to the floor. It was a sad day for everybody, my friend stoped jumping and entered in a depress state of mind for a year or more, some of Tom Piras friends (I think that Tom's wife too) came to talk to him and tell him that its ok, it was an accident nobody could of prevented that. After another while he started skydiving again and now is one of the best.

Speculations and hypothesis: now that you know what really happen to Tom what do you think? the cypres would of save him? some think that he broke his neck when he hitted the other skydiver legs; others think that the reserve would of save him. Answer: we will never know.

Tom Piras background from stories I have heard: he was one of the best in his time, one of the few to have thousands of jumps in those days, he knew how to fly his body in a way that everybody was amazed, a very good coach and friend. He thought that safety was everything.

sorry for the out of topic post. I could of start another thread but I don't think I have the right to start a thread about that accident, just posted it here so I could explain others. Please accept my apologies.

May you have Blue Skies Tom!

P.S. If you don't believe anything I have said, please look at the video and you will have an idea of how right I am. About the conversation on the plane I heard it first hand from the skydivers who were in the plane with him, and they told me that with a tear in theyr eyes.

Any Q's PM me and I'll try to get you an answer.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[blazingcannon 0]

also, I have a javelin and I get these people who peel open my reserve flap like a can of delmonte fruit salad so that when I check my reserve before the next jump, it's all bent, ready to catch air on sit jumps.
Having to tell people how to pull the flap open without bending it all to crap is a hassle.
I wish I had the flexibility to check my own reserve! : )

"Spread your legs and fly"

[happythoughts 0]

"a gear check is more important in a plane like that than in the typical larger aircraft. "
I just wanted to mention one spot that concerns me in Otters. If you sit at the very back of the tail against the bulkhead, watch out. I have seen the bolts for the seatbelts catch on pins, bridles, almost everything. Everyone else has the bolts to their side. For people leaning against the bulkhead, the bolts are rubbing your rig as you move, sit, or stand up. Be careful.

[Danger 0]

I see you're from Illinois. Ever get Jim Belushi to do a Tandem

Danger
C-2112

[kallend 1,634]

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"a gear check is more important in a plane like that than in the typical larger aircraft. "

I just wanted to mention one spot that concerns me in Otters. If you sit at the very back of the tail against the bulkhead, watch out. I have seen the bolts for the seatbelts catch on pins, bridles, almost everything. Everyone else has the bolts to their side. For people leaning against the bulkhead, the bolts are rubbing your rig as you move, sit, or stand up. Be careful.

Not in all Otters - it depends how the seat belts are attached, there's no standard method.

[happythoughts 0]

"there's no standard method"
Prof, I met you in z-hills last year. (I know you won't remember, that's ok). I think we were running 3 Otters at the time. Since there was a variety of aircraft, you understand my point. People need to check. The plane you are boarding now, it isn't necessarily the same one you got on 2 hours ago. I want people to look, just in case. Also, some people may not be aware of the possible problem. They go to a boogie and have never been exposed to it. This is just an observation about a possible pin/bridle snag point that I wanted to share.

[PhreeZone 15]

Actually on the SDC otters you sit on the floor and behind the bulkhead too.. I think thats what Prof was tring to say...

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[happythoughts 0]

"very back of the tail against the bulkhead"
Maybe I used incorrect terminology. I wasn't talking about the wall behind the pilot, I was talking about the wall in the very rear of the plane. However, I guess my point was this: No matter what airplane you are on, if you are not leaning on a buddy, you may be leaning your rig on a possible snag. Take a look before you sit. Also, do your buddy a favor and point things out. Take care of yourself, but you might also help a friend.

[kallend 1,634]

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Prof, I met you in z-hills last year. (I know you won't remember, that's ok)

Bill: I might remember if you have a picture. Better memory for faces than for names.

[Skycoog 0]

I always get pinchecks either from a team mate or someone on the airplane. I can feel my main pin, etc like most people here, but feeling isn't the same as having eyeballs look at it. In fourteen years I've never had an instance where someone has checked my gear and screwed something up. On the other hand, I have had them find things on my gear that could have been a potential hazard, such as pilot chutes not being cocked (my fault for not checking after packers) and reserve pins that have moved.

By habit I check handles, buckles, etc just before exit, often while I'm climbing out. It's everybody's choice obviously, but I've seen a lot of problems (horseshoes, premature deployments, pilot chute in tow) that could have been prevented by a simple pin check before exit.

Don

[barry 0]

As a jumpmaster/tandemmaster I rarely get a pincheck...
I ALWAYS check my (own) pins...
As soon as the rig is on my back, the pins should stay where they are (and if they aren't, wellll.... they probably don't stay where they are after the pincheck anyway). Move around in the plane preventing your rig to touch ANYTHING... consider what you are leaning/sitting against... (like the bar you see in the back of C-206's, it could push out the reserve pin...)
A pincheck is more than just a check of your pins... (as you can and should check them yourself). Also routing of (chest-)bands and looking at the rest of the equipment (RSL, Alti, helmet, goggles, etc, etc, etc) I always check other people that way, whether they ask for it or not...

[Cornholio 0]

Here we go again

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A pincheck is more than just a check of your pins... (as you can and should check them yourself). Also routing of (chest-)bands blah blah blah...

From what we have discussed before in great detail in this thread and others... a pin check is just that - a pin check. If you want something more, then ask for it....ask for a gear check.

This happned a while back at my dz before boarding the plane. I asked for a pin check from a fellow skydiver, and the guy looked at me funny, and asked " Are you sure you just want a pin check ONLY ?" I said ok, gimme a gear check and he did.

You should make it clear what kind of check you want... IMO and my experience.

Butthead: Whoa! Burritos for breakfast!
Beavis: Yeah! Yeah! Cool!
bellyflier on the dz.com hybrid record jump