First one down sets the pattern

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

This is why I think when you combine a north-south only rule with a first one down rule, you eliminate most of the really scary things that can happen.

The closest call I've ever had was in a situation with this rule.

Pilot was above me, spiralled down while I was landing (into the wind mind you) and 3 secs into my swoop came by me, blazingly fast, in the opposite direction. His explanation: "I thought I had beat you down so I set the landing direction"

I understand that, in some places, this rule is a necessity, most of the time though it's not and just increases the landing 'clusterfuck'.

I agree with Bill - the MOST important thing is EVERYONE landing in the SAME direction.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[jacketsdb23 45]

Quote

I agree with Bill - the MOST important thing is EVERYONE landing in the SAME direction.

Me three. Sign me up. This means people better be real comfortable landing downwind and crosswind at times. Not as the norm- but on the occasion it happens to be comfortable with it.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[jdfreefly 1]

Yeah, bad things can still happen if people don't land in the same direction, but in a pattern with only two choices, you should have less of that going on than in a pattern with an infinite number of choices.

The closest call I ever had was at crosskeys AFTER they put in the "no turn greater than 180 degrees" rule. I did my 180 and then had to throw a very hard rear riser 90 degree turn in during plane out to avoid the guy who was chasing the wind sock to the west. The pattern had very definitely been set to the south by the first one down and reinforced by several others as well.

The avoidance turn I threw in was hard enough that people started running out assuming I was going to be injured by it. I tried to make the case that this incident was proof that the new 180 rule made us no safer and that what was really needed was a north-south only pattern with a separate HP area.

Unfortunately, I lost that debate.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[jacketsdb23 45]

There are enough issues with "home" dropzones.

Now add people from all over the country/world....with different rules at different dropzones...and bring them together for a boogie!!!! YAY!

I haven't looked at the stats...but are canopy collisions heavily biased to occur at boogies? I have significantly reduced my participation in jumping at boogies over the last year specifically because of landing pattern issues. Its not worth it to me.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[pilotdave 0]

Still beats another very busy DZ... actual traffic pattern briefing before my first jump there (earlier this year): "Don't hit anyone."

I would have preferred "follow the first person down." Luckily they do a pretty good job of picking a landing direction in the boarding area. But they don't use any kind of standard traffic pattern and swoopers are completely unpredictable (to me). But they like not having any rules...

Dave

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

> I think the first-person-down rule is one of the stupidest rules ever devised.

It's pretty important at most drop zones.

With respect to your obvious knowledge in other areas, I severely challenge that statement. Most? Respectfully, you're out of your mind.

Quote

The "check the winds before takeoff and land in that direction" doesn't work at many DZ's (like Perris) where winds change frequently. So you have a few options:

1) Decide based on the nearest flag and land that way.

2) Decide based on the tetrahedron (or other large indicator) and land that way.

Problem with both of those is that winds change, and if half the load lands and the winds change, changing your landing direction is very, very dangerous; you'll have people landing into each other.

You made one of my points. Thank you. Chasing the winds causes multiple problems. Chasing the first man down causes multiple problems. Flying a designated pattern problems only occur when winds are high and change more than 90 degrees. I personally would question jumping in those conditions in the first place.

Quote

During bigways we will often have someone hold the tetrahedron in one direction so it can't move. Then the rule becomes first person down set the landing direction, and the first person lands in the direction of the tetrahedron.

This is an example of a designated landing pattern. Land in the direction of the immobilized indicator...not a first man down rule.

Quote

The bottom line is that it's a lot more important to avoid head-on collisions than it is to land directly into the wind, which is why everyone has to land in the same direction (in a given landing area, at least.)

Yes! And a designated pattern does just that!

Quote

It definitely has some shortcomings; it's just better than the alternatives.

Far off the mark...just so simply far off the mark. The only thing the first man down rule is better than is anarchy.

Quote

I jump at Perris, Elsinore and Otay by the way.

Thanks this is good to know.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Although I agree it's a pretty stupid rule (first one down frequently is flying a spec and always lands downwind, etc......)

This has not been my experience.

Personally, when I am first down, ....

uh huh, uh huh. Well, I have no issue if you are first down - and all small canopy flyers (that maybe 1st down) are this way?

How do you take your common sense and 'force' everybody else to think the same when they land first?

I don't care what the rule at a DZ is, as long as it's enforced.

We had a great example last weekend. We all decided - before the load - to land to the north.

winds were variable and on landing were light and out of the south - so the newbies were running hard, but they still did it

everybody was landing north anyway per the agreement until one jumper decided to land south in the middle of a handful of people

(I think an exception ONLY would have been if a couple people would have gotten down first and picked the other way, but how do they know who else is landing at the same time?)

he scared about 4 people and one very experienced jumper had to make a hard (and rather low, IMO) 180 as he was, at that point not convinced a bunch of others would follow suit and give him bad traffic

his comment? "no one got hurt, so it's ok" "I was watching" "no one had to make a radical move because of it" (last one not true)

he was approached by 2 people, I pulled them off as he wasn't listening to anyone anyway

I don't trust any other jumper on landing and fly accordingly, maybe a couple of my teammates I'm comfortable with.


1st down? How do you know that you are the 1st down? How do you know that Joe swooper isn't right on your tail and, no matter how good you are swiveling, you didn't see each other and you guys land nearly the same time in a couple different directions? Joe got his swoop on, you tried to set up for the newbies on the load - now everybody sees a couple 1st downers landing in opposite directions.

I prefer we set landing direction on takeoff.

But still, it's best to just have a 'rule' at the DZ - whatever it is and have it enforced consistently.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

This is an example of a designated landing pattern. Land in the direction of the immobilized indicator...not a first man down rule.

My favorite. fix the landing direction on the ground and take it out of the hands of the dorks under canopy

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

[...dorks under canopy

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dragon2 0]

Who's first down here? No time to do much else. BTW I was going downwind (east) but in the specified direction since there wasn't much wind, the other jumper overtook me and ended up going crosswind (south), the rest of the load landed east (agreed direction but downwind), west (upwind, mostly the tandems) and the final guy landed north (no idea why). How the heck do we prevent something like this, and yeah I got bit of a scare.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=7016

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[billvon 2,400]

>Most? Respectfully, you're out of your mind.

Yep, most. Indeed, pretty much all drop zones. It is OK to land out; it is not OK to collide with someone head-on. "First person down sets the pattern" helps prevent head-on collisions.

>Chasing the winds causes multiple problems.

Agreed.

>Chasing the first man down causes multiple problems.

Also agreed. So if you don't like what the first guy down does - land out.

>Land in the direction of the immobilized indicator...not a first man down rule.

No, it's still the first person down rule. If he lands the opposite way, everyone either lands out or follows him. (Needless to say, he'd get yelled at later - but so would the people who landed into other people.)

>The only thing the first man down rule is better than is anarchy.

Agreed. And all too often, "land into the wind" is anarchy as well. A fixed pattern can work if there is someone in charge of setting the direction, or a system in place to ensure that one direction is set. In my experience, this is less reliable than first person down sets the pattern, since it is easier to forget what happened 30 minutes ago than what direction someone landed in 15 seconds ago.

[popsjumper 2]

Sorry, Bill. There is no way that most DZs use the first-man-down (FMD) rule...no way. Show us where you get that from, please. Blanket statements don't fly.

Designated pattern...you're the FMD and want to do something else? YOU land out away from everyone else following the pattern.

Landing direction indicator...why the heck even have one if your landing direction in the main area still has to depend on the FMD? Doesn't make sense at all.

It's really very simple...here's the landing direction. If you must do something else, land out and away from everyone else. No muss, no fuss, no confusion.

Of course there's someone setting the pattern! That's what S&TA's do, That's what instructors do. That's what Jumpmasters do. That's what load organizers do...and they do it for EVERY load. Jumpers should be asking ON EVERY LOAD what the landing direction is...why in the world would anybody assume something so important...regardless of what happend 30 minutes or 15 seconds ago? That's just crazy.

You're asking everybody on the load to be watching the FMD instead of watching where the hell they are going. That is even crazier still. You're asking everyone on the load to have no plan whatsoever for landing until they are in the air under canopy with an entire laod full of people in the air all driving around aimlessly watching for the FMD and THEN trying to set up a pattern. Bill, that's sad. Simply a sad state of affairs...especially when there's a much, much safer option available.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

...and another thing. Let's look at students and youngsters.

Use SIM Section 4, CatA Illustration 4-A.2.

I'm sure you teach landing patterns in FJC.
If your landings are geared to FMD, and your landing depends on FMD, you're asking your students to make a major decision in the air at a time when they should be doing other things.

Assuming the FMD does something other than a normal pattern into the wind, you're asking the student to decide amongst several options:
1. Stay in the holding area until you get to a low enough altitude to make a straight-in shot on final without overshooting the landing area just like the FMD.
2. Change your holding area to some place other than upwind so that you can set up a landing pattern to follow the FMD.
3. Change your pattern from left to right as the FMD did.
4. Disregard one of the pattern legs in order to follow the FMD.
5. Choose some other means to land.
6. ...ad infinitum.

Asking quite a bit much of a student, eh? Obviously, your students must be handling it well enough else you would be evaluating why they are having problems. I would be curious to see what's taught in FJC and watch just how they are handling following the FMD. Are they, as a group, consistent in choosing a landing target or are they all over the place?
Please don't fall back on that lame "they are the last ones down" bit...you and I both know that's not true at all when you have other students, youngsters and tandems in the air with them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pilotdave 0]

I'd say most dropzones I've been to have 2 rules... choose a landing direction beforehand, and follow the first person down. Point is that if the first person sees the wind sock pointing straight out in the wrong direction, he can fix the landing direction to something more appropriate. Once he lands the wrong way, everybody else should go ahead and follow so that everybody is landing the same way... even if that turns out to be the wrong way. People WILL follow the first person down. People have been doing that as long as I've been skydiving. They aren't going to stop. You might as well teach people to follow each other so we all land in the same direction. You can yell at the guy that caused everybody to change up their patterns in mid air because he decided to chase the wind sock on the ground after everybody lands... but once somebody changes the pattern, it's probably best for everybody to just follow because somebody is going to do that anyway.

I've had loads where half the load landed to the north and half the load landed to the south. There's always a big argument afterward... "WE WERE LANDING TO THE NORTH!" "The wind shifted so the first group landed to the south and we followed!" Once that first group is landing to the south, the pattern has changed and landing to the north might be more dangerous, even though it was agreed.

Dave

[jacketsdb23 45]

Andy,

We do all of what you mention. We talk about landing direction before getting on the plane. The first man down follows that pattern and everyone else follows suit. Most of the time it works out just fine. However, the wind frequently changes direction in the afternoon. If that change happens to be while we are in the air, the first man down changes the pattern and this is usually followed.

I think each dropzone does have their own rules that work for them. What we need is everyone to separate fast high performance landings from slower standard pattern landings and ENFORCE with groundings their own pattern rules, whatever those may be that work for them. Then we start educating about canopy flight and patterns from day 1.

For what its worth, right or wrong, I think there are many DZ's that have a FMD rule. Many of the ones I jump out here in CA do. Many of those places also discuss the pattern prior to getting in the plane.

I would love to have a landing direction discussed, picked, and then shown with a stationary indicator that everyone followed regardless of the wind direction. GA at our dropzone have two runways. They don't get to land into the wind on every approach, I personally don't see how its much different for us. If people learned to land their canopies crosswind there would not be such a panic to land into the wind.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

During bigways we will often have someone hold the tetrahedron in one direction so it can't move. Then the rule becomes first person down set the landing direction, and the first person lands in the direction of the tetrahedron.

That is not a "first one down sets the pattern" rule, that is a "tetrahedron sets the pattern" rule. There is a huge difference.

Often enough, there will be more than one person that will be almost simultaneously landing first. People should be setting up into a pattern before having to wait for the first down, and without focusing so much of their attention to monitoring and deciding who was the first down and what direction they were going.

Quote

The bottom line is that it's a lot more important to avoid head-on collisions than it is to land directly into the wind, which is why everyone has to land in the same direction (in a given landing area, at least.)

I totally agree. I think "first down sets the pattern" to be a horrible strategy that is unable to actually achieve that goal.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

Often enough, there will be more than one person that will be almost simultaneously landing first.

I have seen that happen many times. And often they have set up in different directions!

Quote

People should be setting up into a pattern before having to wait for the first down, and without focusing so much of their attention to monitoring and deciding who was the first down and what direction they were going.

True too. From 1000ft or above it's often hard to see if somone way below is on downwind, base or final (or about to hook).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

• Quote

[billvon 2,400]

>That is not a "first one down sets the pattern" rule, that is a "tetrahedron
>sets the pattern" rule.

No.

If the first person down lands to the south, everyone else lands to the south. Period. If the tetrahedron is pointing north, and the first guy lands to the south, and the next guy lands to the north, the second guy is wrong. As is the first guy, but again - the primary rule is follow the first one down. The secondary rule is that you land with the tetrahedron.

Why this order? Because landing downwind is not the end of the world. Landing into each other could well be the end of the world, at least for those two people.

Let's take a hypothetical. You have discussed the landing pattern before takeoff, and the pattern is to the south. The first guy lands to the north. The second guy sees this and sets up to the north. You will land almost simultaneously with the second guy. Which direction are you going to land in?

[danielcroft 2]

The example can be used to support either argument I think.

I personally would prefer that people land in the agreed direction.

What if the 3rd person down lands the other way, what then?

What happens when everyone's set up to land in one direction and then FMD decides they don't feel like landing in the agreed direction and then everyone else has to adjust their pattern on the fly. At which point the separation established gets messed up.

I know I'm a noob and I have NFI compared to a lot of other people but I hate the idea of carefully setting up my pattern, watching for canopies making sure I'm appropriately separated only to have someone decide at the last minute that they're going to land in the other direction. At that point I'd need to figure out how the hell I was going to adjust my pattern to match FMD and figure out what all the other canopies were going to do to get there too.

I'm all for deciding in advance & sticking to it. Downwind, cross wind or otherwise. Relying on one individual to decide is an inadequate plan IMO.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

>That is not a "first one down sets the pattern" rule, that is a "tetrahedron
>sets the pattern" rule.

No.

If the first person down lands to the south, everyone else lands to the south. Period. If the tetrahedron is pointing north, and the first guy lands to the south, and the next guy lands to the north, the second guy is wrong. As is the first guy, but again - the primary rule is follow the first one down. The secondary rule is that you land with the tetrahedron.

Why this order? Because landing downwind is not the end of the world. Landing into each other could well be the end of the world, at least for those two people.

Let's take a hypothetical. You have discussed the landing pattern before takeoff, and the pattern is to the south. The first guy lands to the north. The second guy sees this and sets up to the north. You will land almost simultaneously with the second guy. Which direction are you going to land in?

We agree that avoiding collisions is the goal. IMO, a first down sets the pattern rule is not at all the best way to achieve that goal. There are of course some hypothetical situations that support your position, I admit that. No strategy will be without some risk. However, I think that overall, there are too many downsides and potential unintended consequences with FMD, they've already been described.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[danornan 64]

Lots of good suggestions and to me, IMHO, setting the pattern before boarding works best. I don't want someone changing the pattern at the last second.

In general, the further I land away from the "spectator" landing area, the safer I feel. Too many people try to land/swoop/spiral as close to the peas as possible and as much as they think they see, they don't. I feel that there should be a separate landing area for anyone who wishes to make a so called swoop landing.

I tend to open a little higher, come down a little slower and that gives me more time to pick a safe place to land. I personally feel that if you want to do something unpredictable, it should not be on the DZ. A predictable pattern will save lives.

Dano

[popsjumper 2]

I'm sorry to say that I see a few highly experienced people in here making comments that indicate that they have completely forgotten about the students and youngsters.

If you expect students and youngsters to consistently be able to follow the experienced FMD...YOU have forgotten what it's like to be a student/youngster. You are robbing them of a safe environment in which to learn.

And yes, you can sit down and dream up scenarios that support your FMD position. That doesn't make your position better than the simple, easy-to-understand, common-sense logical one that works well for everyone.

The only valid argument made against designated pattern landings is the wind-change one. Maybe you aren't seeing the trees for the forest. Compare instances of downwind landings caused by changed wind vs those casued by FMD idiots.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,400]

>I personally would prefer that people land in the agreed direction.

Agreed.

>What if the 3rd person down lands the other way, what then?

Then that landing area is closed, everyone else has to land out and the third guy gets talked to by the S+TA.

>What happens when everyone's set up to land in one direction and then
>FMD decides they don't feel like landing in the agreed direction and then
>everyone else has to adjust their pattern on the fly.

The pattern is then set in the "wrong" direction, and people can either:

1) land downwind (should not be a problem and avoids collisions)

2) land into the wind but not in the primary landing area

And again, the guy gets a talking to by the S+TA.

[danielcroft 2]

My experience (or lack thereof) is such that I'm very careful about my setup, holding area & pattern. I like to avoid last minute choices. I have no basis on which to disagree with your opinion on this except to say that, where I jump (the Ranch), I'd feel *very* unhappy about having to try to land out when I was at 1k (or whatever) starting my downwind. Even if it was possible. Not to mention that remembering the rules would seem to me to be an added burden on noobs like me.

Honestly, I have no idea how different methodologies would effect traffic and safety but what I can say is that it seems much simpler to just say "we're landing towards ______" in the loading area and have everyone agree. Anyone that doesn't land in that direction is spoken to & then grounded on second instance.

I think a lot more people would land in the right direction if there was actually enforcement from the DZ.

I have NFI really, just don't like the idea of FMD for my home DZ which is the only place I've ever jumped.

[docjohn 0]

Another problem with that rule is that it assumes that there will be only one canopy landing first. At Couch Freaks last year, we had a couple of no wind days. It was common to see the first canopies landing in opposite directions so the remaining jumpers didn't know who to follow.

At our DZ, on light wind or no wind days, we designate a compass direction for landing and announce it before we take off.

Eloy's solution seems to work well. Land in the direction of the arrow, period. It might be cross wind, but land that direction anyway. (Or land out.)

Doc
http://www.manifestmaster.com/video