Chest strap on new Javelin container. A question.

[T_P 0]

I have a question about the chest strap on the new Javelin containers. OK, not a very exciting subject, but a chest strap is rather important, and there is something about it that got me thinking... then worrying...

The strap itself is about 25 mm by 4 mm in cross section (1" by 1/6" for those from USA). One end is sewn into the shoulder strap (L side) and the other end is simply hot-cut so that it comes to an abrupt end. The hot cut end passes through a double-back friction loop (yes I do know how to feed it through... I'm still alive, I think) when you are wearing it. Obviously the friction loop works, in that it does clamp up under full load conditions. But under partial load conditions there can be slippage through the loop in both directions, i.e. it can "work" through the friction loop. A small flap on the end of the strap would prevent it falling out all together - ie a last resort. What I mean is just a doubling over and sewing of the strap itself to form such a flap. Such flaps are the norm on climbing harnesses and I have seen them on the chest straps of containers. Which brings me to the question.

Is this normal for the chest strap of containers? Have there been any recorded accidents resulting from correctly done up chest straps of this type working undone? Would anyone else worry about this or do you not see this as a potential problem?

Cheers.

[NiteQwill 0]

No expert, but isn't that the purpose of the retaining spandex that usually helps tuck the excess strap away? With that said, my Mirage container has a "doubled over" flap at the end that would prevent it from falling out like you described.

I feel that leg straps are far more important since they help prevent you from falling out of the rig on opening (which happened last year I believe, in Florida). With that, I would believe ALL straps are important... just make sure their all tightened, with excess stowed away.

"Fail, fail again. Fail better."
-Samuel Beckett

[councilman24 36]

Chest strap design has changed on Javelins over the years and on other rigs too. I haven't seen a new one in a while but at one time they were doubled webbing. If so the extra thickness helps keep it in. Also haveing the fold on a strap that is routinely unthreaded and threaded make that difficult. Also some people want to undo their chest strap after they open. Much easier to do with out the fold.

But you are right that the fold back helps keep webbing from slipping out when loose and stripping out under extreme load. I prefer to have it on mine. Adding it is simple if the chest strap is long enough. But threading through the friction adapter may be a challenge if it is double thichness.

No one ever knows for sure if a loose chest strap was threaded right and came out, was threaded wrong and came out, or was never threaded.

If you want the fold and can still thread the strap easily have it added.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JohnRich 4]

Have a rigger look at it and see if he can add the fold on the end for you. It may depend upon how much excess length you have to work with, how tight or loose you wear the chest strap, and whether the doubled-over fold will fit through the friction adapter.

I personally like the peace of mind of having that fold there. I loosen my chest strap under canopy, but only to the fold, and it serves as a good "stop" so that it doesn't slip out all the way.

There have been incidents of jumpers falling forward when a chest strap comes loose, and hanging upside-down from their leg straps.

[fasted3 0]

My Javelin is an older model that has the fold.
It has never come loose at all, so far, so the fold has never been needed. I wear my chest strap quite tight, and do not loosen it under canopy.
If I had your rig I would have a fold sewn in.

But what do I know?

[Gene03 0]

If it's folded back and sewn it probably won't fit through the hardware.

What I do to every Javelin/Oddysey that comes through my shop is sew a confluence wrap of one inch binding tape, sewn on with a boxed 3 point w-w stitch, on the end of the chest strap.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

[brettski74 0]

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I feel that leg straps are far more important since they help prevent you from falling out of the rig on opening (which happened last year I believe, in Florida). With that, I would believe ALL straps are important... just make sure their all tightened, with excess stowed away.

The chest strap is also there to keep you in your harness during deployment. It prevents your main left webs from spreading apart enough that your shoulders can squeeze past and you fall out of the top of the harness. People have had chest straps come undone and not fallen out of the harness on deployment, so it's very possible for the harness to stay on your shoulders without the chest strap, but I wouldn't like to rely on it.

[dgw 8]

Dude,

I jump a TSE Superfly, which has a narrow chest strap which comes without a 'dogleg' at the end. I got my rigger to sew one on. Gives me a bit of extra piece of mind!

[pringles 0]

Page 38 figure 4 of the owners manual should help with how to stow the chest strap that you describe. I don't know if this is the type of reply you are looking for but it might be helpful.

Matt Davies

[captain_stan 0]

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If you want the fold and can still thread the strap easily have it added.

Last time I asked Sunpath about doing that, they said that would be an unapproved alteration. Illegal in the US, but maybe not elsewhere.

BTW, The type-17 chest-straps are thicker than the type-8 whcih are still in use, and therefore require a different method of folding or wrapping or else they won't thread easiely through the friction adapter. I haven't yet seen a type-8 chest-strap on a Javelin that lacks the fold-back

[n7jenast 0]

Another method of adding a stop to the chest strap is to sew a coin into the end of the strap. This would be for a double layer chest strap. It seems to do the trick without making the strap too difficult to route through the friction adapter.

I am curious to hear if any other riggers or users have come across this and can share their experiences. I am aware that the method might not be "officially approved" though.

[Hellis 0]

i was just about to make a thread about the cheststrap when i saw this thread.

first the ontopic response.
my cheststrap is so long that i dont see how it can slip that far.
if you look at the attached image, black beeing cheststrap, red beeing the frictionloop and green beeing the spandex keeper.
this way you will keep tension to the frictionloop and it wont slip (never hapend to me), and when you are under canopy you can easily pull the end to losen it from the spandex keeper.

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... Also some people want to undo their chest strap after they open. Much easier to do with out the fold.

my problem is i cant loosen the cheststrap.
the frictionloop makes it almost inpossible to loosen cheststrap under canopy.
last jump it took me about 20 seconds to get it loosen.
anyone that got a tip on how to do it? it feels kind of unsafe to wrestle with the cheststrap for that long under canopy.

EDIT: couldnt upload the file, click on the link instead.
http://www.hellis.me/Strap.jpg

[brettski74 0]

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my problem is i cant loosen the cheststrap.
the frictionloop makes it almost inpossible to loosen cheststrap under canopy.
last jump it took me about 20 seconds to get it loosen.
anyone that got a tip on how to do it?

If the jump numbers in your profile are accurate, a more important question to be asking is why you're trying to loosen your chest strap in flight at all? Two reasons why this is probably of no benefit to you are:

With a large wing and low wing loading - which is what I imagine you're currently flying - the difference in wing performance between the risers spreading an few inches will be negligible

Unless you have some facility to either remove or stow the slider, the slider will prevent the risers from spreading, anyway, meaning that loosening your chest strap is likely doing nothing positive for your canopy flight. It's unlikely that you would have such features on your current rig due to the negligible performance improvement this would provide for a large, lightly loaded wing.

Talk to your instructors about your chest strap. At the very least, they will be able to demonstrate things first hand. Secondly, they can probably explain to you whether there's much point in you doing this at all. Personally, if someone with 30 jumps came to me asking for assistance on how to loosen their chest strap in flight, I'd suggest that they spend more time learning to fly their canopy and less time worrying about the chest strap.

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it feels kind of unsafe to wrestle with the cheststrap for that long under canopy.[Crazy]

There's your answer right there. If it feels unsafe to be messing with your harness under canopy, then perhaps you're not ready to be doing that. [Crazy]

Seriously, there are plenty of things for you to be worrying about learning about canopy flight at your experience level. Loosening the chest strap is not one of them. Save that for later when you start getting coaching on enhanced landing techniques.

[Hellis 0]

I have ~55 jumps now.

the reason i want to loosen the strap is because i want be able to move in the harness.
why i started doing this in the first place is because one of the instructors told me to do so.
he told me the canopy will be more stable.

i can say i dont feel much extra stability in flight but i really like that i can move in the harness.
its much more comfortable with loosend strap.


i dont mean i feel unsafe loosening the strap, but since there is other canopys (and perhaps people in freefall) in the air, i should watch for trafic instead.
it would be great if i could watch for trafic while colapsing slider and loosen the cheststrap.

so its not the actual messing with the harness that is the "unsafe" thing, im thinking of unsafe as flyingin to other jumpers.
i have been loosening the cheststrap in flight since i was a student (much easier on student gear), heck i have even loosend the legstraps once while under canopy.
but im having problems with the new javelin cheststrap, i guess its too safe

[rlucus 0]

Try using your shoulders or biceps to squeeze the shoulder straps together to remove tension from the chest strap.

[Hellis 0]

i tried that today, and it orked ok.
what i found worked the best was to grab the cheststrap with my left hand and pull it to remove the tension.

thanks for the tip!

[jakee 1,255]

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the reason i want to loosen the strap is because i want be able to move in the harness.
why i started doing this in the first place is because one of the instructors told me to do so.
he told me the canopy will be more stable.

i can say i dont feel much extra stability in flight but i really like that i can move in the harness.

A loosened chest strap allows the canopy to spread out flatter, and when that happens it more efficiently, as it was designed to. But loosening the chest strap wont achieve that unless the slider has also been pulled down over the links to sit behind your head.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[captain_stan 0]

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A loosened chest strap allows the canopy to spread out flatter, and when that happens it more efficiently, as it was designed to.But loosening the chest strap wont achieve that unless the slider has also been pulled down over the links to sit behind your head.

At his profile's .89:1 WL, I say the difference is not enough to be noticed. But it will make the jumper look and feel like one of the "big dogs." At least right up until landing. I hope that the distraction of these extra tasks won't interfere with the safety of those with low jump #s. I've seen bad results from teaching this practice too early. A nice, soft landing can be made without doing this.

Earlier in the thread, Brettski made this point well. I'm just throwing-in to emphasize the safety factor.

[jakee 1,255]

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At his profile's .89:1 WL, I say the difference is not enough to be noticed.

Maybe so, although it was noticeable for me even back when I was flying a 190 at 1:1.

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At least right up until landing. I hope that the distraction of these extra tasks won't interfere with the safety of those with low jump #s. I've seen bad results from teaching this practice too early. A nice, soft landing can be made without doing this.

Absolutely. I make no comment on the advisability or otherwise of doing this at low jump numbers, just fleshing out the mechanics of it a little.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[brettski74 0]

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i dont mean i feel unsafe loosening the strap, but since there is other canopys (and perhaps people in freefall) in the air, i should watch for trafic instead.
it would be great if i could watch for trafic while colapsing slider and loosen the cheststrap.

We're thinking along some of the same lines...While you're struggling with your chest strap, you're not watching for traffic, or whether you're headed towards town rather than back to the dropzone. You're also taking away time that you could be learning to fly your canopy. We only get a few minutes of canopy time per jump and a significant part of that we have to spend getting into the pattern and landing. You could be spending those minutes learning about your stall point on both toggles and rear risers, how your canopy responds to riser input with the brakes still stowed, etc. These are things that might help save your life when you have a tricky landing one day.

Your chest strap shouldn't be that uncomfortable. You had it that way for the ride to altitude and the freefall. That's got to be at least 15 minutes or maybe 20. I'm sure that those last few minutes under canopy will be just fine, but if it really is that uncomfortable, then perhaps you're overtightening it on the ground. It only needs to to be tight enough to prevent the main lift webs from spreading over your shoulders. If you've got it tightened so much that it's distorting the main lift webs inward, then you're probably overdoing it. Even with your chest strap done up, the main lift webs should be running relatively straight from the laterals up to your shoulder.

[rlucus 0]

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It only needs to to be tight enough to prevent the main lift webs from spreading over your shoulders. If you've got it tightened so much that it's distorting the main lift webs inward, then you're probably overdoing it. Even with your chest strap done up, the main lift webs should be running relatively straight from the laterals up to your shoulder.

Not according to the Javelin Rep... the new harness with articulated chest is designed to be cinched to the point of the upper half running straight down the chest, with the lower half running out to the hip rings.

So much tighter than most people currently tighten the chest strap...

This information is straight from the mouth of Javelins current traveling representative Chris Talbert.

[ChrisClark 0]

Hi,

I am a UK rigger, let me know where you are and I can give you details of your local rigger. The simple way to add security to a one inch chest strap is to sew a wrap of 1" binding tape around the chest strap material. It makes it too stiff to pass back through the adjuster. This is standard on Talon and Voodoo containers.