'D' Bag orientation

[zoom1 0]

i think the concept we need to understand is to learn from other peoples screw-ups . in skydiving people dont LIVE by screwing up they die from screwing up.i think we need to encourage new people to use all the resources they can and not learn by trial and error. this sounds like a good example of not taking advice on the internet as gospel. only a low jumpers 2 cents.

[fasted3 0]

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And as for the grommet up thing, there's no real reason I can see for using it.

Do you know that this is widely promoted for wingsuits? The reasons given are:
1. Slower deployment speeds.
2. Angle of bag leaving container is more to the bottom.
Most wingsuitors I know pack grommet up. I do too.

But what do I know?

[riggerrob 558]

Two variables to consider:
First, are the lowers corners of the main container sewn closed?
eg. one inch of zig-zag stitching on Talon, but zero on Javelin.
This will cause the d-bag to hesitate briefly, just ensuring that the pilot chute is pulling before the d-bag lifts off your back. This staging is important with pull-outs, but less important with throw-outs (eg. BOC).

The second variable is the shape of the d-bag. If it looks almost square from the side, orientation is less of an issue.

[mnskydiver688 0]

I had a Flexon for my first rig, (great first rig, kept me on my belly) that had a D-bag that was fairly flat and it would've made the bag bunch up weird had I packed grommet up. Thank you for clarifying the "staging" issue in regards to a pull out vs throw out. Wingsuiters shouldn't be using a pull out anyway. Another thing I thought of is when you have dynamic corners, which could leave some of the d-bag exposed, packing grommet to pin keeps your lines away from the small openings in the corners. I have seen some bad pack jobs where the bag was packed lines to BOC and line stows were sticking out.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[DSE 3]

This'll take the thread off-topic, but I'll try to bring it back around...
When you:
go low and work the skydive to get back up but can't, you've failed. Eventually, you'll figure out how to get back up.

consistently have line twists on deployment, you'll eventually fix your body position or packing method (or both) and the line twists will go away.

turn and track into the path of a deploying canopy, you'll quickly learn to not let this happen again.

have a fast-opening canopy, a different packing technique, an extra twist here or there, or other experimentation due to intelligence or input from others will cure it.

fail to inspect a closing loop and either have a premie in the air or a popped-open container in the aircraft, that'll teach you to check your closing loop before jumping.

get grounded for opening too low will teach you to not do it again.

Reaching for a grip and either going low or funneling the formation when you grab n' drag it, eventually you'll learn to not do this.

have a few riser slaps, you'll quickly fix your body/head position at deployment.

Can't keep the student/instructor in the middle of the frame, it won't take long to figure out how to remedy.

miss the exit shot from leaving either too early or too late, in a short while you'll have this dialed in.

get a finger trapped in the excess toggle line, you'll learn to stow the excess better.

forget to do a chest strap, either you'll notice or someone else will, thus reducing the likelihood of it happening again.

flare too late or too high, you'll learn that PLF's aren't as fun as landing on your feet, and you'll learn to land better.

forget to release your brakes above 2K and find that you have a stuck toggle or line, causing a bit of a heart palpitation. This will probably not be repeated.

pitch while head down or in a sit; this will hurt. You'll learn to not do this again, too.

land next to trees on a windy day and not be prepared for a stall or rotor (Saw a very experienced skydiver mess up his calf/thigh only this week; he's out of the air for a month or more).

buy the wrong jumpsuit, container, canopy, helmet, whatever due to excitement for the sport. You'll likely not do this one over.

decide to freefly at the end of an RW skydive and are told you likely won't be invited back with that group for a while; you'll take the time to find out why.

Downsize to quickly and break a bone; these forums are filled with people who have said they'll never do that again. Except people keep doing it, obviously not "learning from the mistakes of others."

forget to zero (or turn on an altimeter at a new DZ and wonder why freefall seems longer than usual. You'll fix this right away.

get "Burked" at Eloy. That's a badge of honor, but you'll never repeat whatever he was unhappy about.

Lose a helmet due to forgetting chinstrap. Learned this in one.

fixate on someone or something in freefall and find yourself well below your hard deck without pitching a main, you'll become more respectful of altitude awareness.

jump in high winds that you know you can handle; until you're 100 feet above the ground and it's a bumpy ride. When you land, you thank dieties for allowing you to walk away from that mistake.

do a high pull out of the aircraft, forgetting that you won't be at terminal. The slower opening scares you because you're a newbie, and you chop at 11k. The two people I'm aware of had this figured out before they hit ground. One of them didn't; she was so scared she only pulled one reserve toggle and spun in. She was lucky to live with only a broken face, leg, arm, ribs.

fixate on someone or something during landing and run into someone or something during landing. Hopefully you won't break anyone or anything, and learn to not do this again (swoop n' chugs are famous for "oopsie" moments).

forget to de-collapse your slider before packing; learn this in one if it doesn't break your neck during the next deployment.

don't cock your pilot chute before closing the container; the resulant cutaway usually makes this lesson stick.

swap out canopies and either twist or reverse a riser; had a manufacturer do this to me on a demo rig. I compounded that error by deciding to land it. I was fine, but in hindsight it was stupid.

double stow locking stows will often result in a cutaway. My first was a baglock caused by a packer that thought it was OK to double stow my Dbag.

reach for the ground during a downwind landing and sprain/break a wrist.

turn low and find yourself in a corner with little to no flare power left, hope you can remember to PLF, but many will try to run it out.

sit on the tailgate of a pickup (picking you up from an out landing) and sit on your canopy. After you've picked yourself up from the ground after sliding out of the truck, laugh hard and don't do it again (assuming you and your gear are OK after being dumped).

deploy in clouds and find yourself flying straight towards someone else (red right return).

forget to clip a camera wing and get the crap beaten out of you for the entire skydive.

exit first/last without visually checking the spot (maybe your pilot misread the GPS). The bad spot/ride back/walk back usually provides plenty of time to re-think that error.

fall on your face trying to put on your legstraps "the cool way" and realize later that your rig is too small for doing so.

lose the others in your four way because you either couldn't dive fast enough or too fast, and then track into them during their deployment.

forget your goggles, helmet, or other necessity, you'll realize the error and lessen the odds of repeating it.

follow the comments of others like sheep, and not have the slightest clue about what you are parroting...

################

These are *all* screwups I've seen in just a couple of years. I've made a good number of them myself. I've learned from these screwups. Maybe you can too, but I'm sure you've got your own screwups coming )as others have found)
Understand that you are going to screw up...Everyone does...It is a natural part of the learning process.
It's the people that say "That will NEVER happen to me" that scare me the most. They're conditioning themselves to not know how to handle screwups.
Me? I'm to the point where I like trying new things. I did about a dozen jumps trying new positions of my Dbag, lines, and bridle routing til I found what I preferred. I like experimenting with flat spins. Some will tell you that it's an accident waiting to happen. Maybe it is...but I know more about flat spins than the average bear. When I was a newb, I liked playing with combinations of toggle/riser (above 2500). I learned a lot about how my canopy works. And scared myself more than once.
My favorite line is that "I've screwed up more things than most people attempt in their entire lives." I'm proud of my failures, because those failures have led to some great successes. I'm a big believer in screwing up.

If you think that makes me a bad instructor, so be it. Just know that if I ever instruct you, the stories I share with you (to help you avoid screwing up) are likely my own, and not some bullshit story I took from someone else on the internet. With luck you'll be better informed for it.

Not being afraid to admit mistakes and help others learn from it is important, IMO, but equally important is learning when you screwed up and doing something about it.

[mnskydiver688 0]

"fall on your face trying to put on your legstraps "the cool way" and realize later that your rig is too small for doing so."

I would've liked to have seen that.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[rehmwa 2]

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How about "grommet to pin", does that paint a better picture?

meh - I just like to be clear. The 'grommet up' is likely a term that describes the functionality specifically when it matters (when the grommet would actually be 'up') during the deployment sequence . Packers, it would also make sense. So I can see why it's a natural term for riggers - design and packing.

But I hate to tell a student something that could be misinterpreted to a very bad habit just because they see things in their very own unique way. - as they tend to do.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[popsjumper 2]

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I feel everyone becomes better by screwing up or by learning what doesn't work. Having everything go right teaches nothing.

Well there's a wonderful statement.

People die by screwing up, and the lesson we should learn from their deaths is that we shouldn't follow their screw-ups by repeating them.

Thanks, John. For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would want to learn anything by screwing up. What a terrible idea! Even worse, I cannot understand why anyone would actually tell someone to screw up so they can learn. What a terrible, terrible idea!!!


For me, I'll let others screw up so I can learn from that.

Having everything go right indeed DOES teach you something. It teaches what works...which is what we all want to learn. We have test jumpers to work out the screw-ups.

It's a shame that all that blood was spilled trying to find out what works and what doesn't....my hat is off to those guys.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[diablopilot 2]

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1. Slower deployment speeds.

Really? Explain that.

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Most wingsuitors I know pack grommet up.

And I've found many wingsuiters who do things different, just to be different.

I've got just about 400 wingsuit flights, and packing "grommet up" for 40 to 50 did not change the openings one bit, and on many containers increases the risk of damage, snags, or malfunctions.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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Wingsuiters shouldn't be using a pull out anyway.

Why?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Wingsuiters shouldn't be using a pull out anyway.

Why?

The strong turbulance of the suit does not provide a clear launch of your PC.

[fasted3 0]

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1. Slower deployment speeds.

Really? Explain that.

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Most wingsuitors I know pack grommet up.

And I've found many wingsuiters who do things different, just to be different.

I've got just about 400 wingsuit flights, and packing "grommet up" for 40 to 50 did not change the openings one bit, and on many containers increases the risk of damage, snags, or malfunctions.

Thanks for your reply. I think the deployment speed is slower because vertical fall rate is much slower. Forward speed is a factor, but I slow down a lot during deployment, and find that my openings are super soft compared to belly jumps. It is a subjective opinion I admit.
I don't think most wingsuit fliers that pack grommet up do it just to be different. I know I don't, and with my particular rig, a Jav, it packs up nice enough that I'll keep doing it this way, I think.
I'm saying that just because it's worked well hundreds of times, and I hate to fix what ain't broke. You know more than me, so I could change my mind. A few times packers have done it the regular way and I lived.
I hope to see more on this subject.
Do any other WS fliers have super soft openings?
Do you pack grommet up just to be different, or do you think there is a valid reason for doing it?

But what do I know?

[riggerrob 558]

Wing suiters like to quote the theory that - if they pack grommet to pin - then the d-bag does not have to rotate before leaving the container.

Theoretically, that packing method reduces line twists.
However, there are so many other variables: shape of d-bag, are the lower corners sewn shut?, shoulders level?, etc. that I need the rig in hand before advising you whether to pack that way.

[fasted3 0]

Wow. Quite an editorial, and great distraction from your earlier nonsense about screw ups being a good thing, or whatever you meant to say.
When I started reading it, I thought, Oh no, somebody has been following me around writing down all my mistakes.
Yes, I make a lot of them, and no, I don't think this post was all about me. Some of it was, I suspect, so I'll address this point:

It's the people that say "That will NEVER happen to me" that scare me the most. They're conditioning themselves to not know how to handle screwups.

Let's add this comment too:
"fall on your face trying to put on your legstraps "the cool way" and realize later that your rig is too small for doing so."

You will never see me do this one. Why not, because I'm better than you? Because I never make any mistakes? NO!
I still will NEVER do it, because I NEVER put on my leg straps that way. I CAN'T! Therefore, I WON'T.
I will own my many mistakes. I will learn from them as much as I can, and hopefully not make too many. I know I will, but I'll try anyway.
So relax. You can quit being scared of me because of complacency.
By all means be afraid of me because I'm an idiot. But that's another story.
PEACE

But what do I know?

[DSE 3]

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So relax. You can quit being scared of me because of complacency.

I'm scared of you for entirely different reasons, I've seen you fly.

I'll once more stand by my statement, but change the wording for those that are comprehension-challenged.

Making a mistake is a good thing as it provides the opportunity to gain more knowledge about the activity or effort in which we are engaged. Is that more clear?
Making mistakes, getting it almost right, and experimenting to see what happens are all part of the process of eventual perfection.

Being ignorant enough to think that "mistake=death" is overly dramatic and ridiculous. The ratio of "oh shit" mistakes vs fatal mistakes is tremendously in favor of "oh shit" mistakes. Look at your posted two-way wingsuit/smoke video. It has all sorts of mistakes, as pointed out by several wingsuiters. No one died, and hopefully you learned a thing or two.
NONE of the previous post was about anyone, BTW. They're common mistakes, mistakes that can perhaps be found in dozens of posts here on dropzone.com, including my own.

Perhaps Oscar Wilde wrote with greater articulation;
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes."

[erdnarob 1]

The answer seems quite simple for me. The D bag stows have to be away from the lines and risers to decrease the possibility of any interference during the deployment. It seems to me that all container manufacturers ask the user to follow that method isn't it?

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[fasted3 0]

Oh goodie, I get to argue that mistakes are indeed a bad idea. Where to start.

Being ignorant enough to think that "mistake=death" is overly dramatic and ridiculous.

Here is a good one. With skydiving, ANY mistake can be the one that gets you. Why screw around with anything just because you 'probably' won't die? I've had mine that damn sure could have, and will also be trying my hardest to avoid any more.

BTW: some mistakes pretty much DO=DEATH.

To make my own side track here, I dislike seeing things explained by fate, statistics, or shit happens. For sure, it does, but why not look at each one with the eye that we could have done better. Maybe leaving an extra inch of lines was the cause, maybe that rubber band was a bit worn. Why not own this stuff and resolve to improve, rather than throwing our hands in the air and saying 'shit happens.'
In regard to the current thread, what I see is a challange to 'accepted wisdom' in the wingsuit community. Your original point seemed to be that you would do whatever you felt like and welcomed any bad consequences as a learning challange. Probably not what you meant, but that is what you got called on, and I agree.
I'm still thinking about how to pack, but I will think long and hard before I do anything different. I want everything to work perfect on every jump. I don't expect it, but that is what I want.
Nice shot about my flying too. Thanks for the smileys. I do OK. I've avoided more shit than I've caused, so far. I'm not afraid to fly with you at all, you're good.
Peace again.

But what do I know?

[mnskydiver688 0]

With the grommet facing the reserve on a non-wingsuit jump the bag rotates 90 degrees as it leaves your back. When the grommet faces the reserve on a wingsuit jump the bag rotates 150~160 degrees when it leaves your back. On a non wingsuit jump that would be comparable to packing with the grommet to the back pad or a little less. How would that work? I don't know, but it doesn't sound right to me. I think you do get more benefit from packing grommet to pin if you have dynamic corners. But what the hell do I know. I have a little over 6% of your experience.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[popsjumper 2]

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...i think we need to encourage new people to use all the resources they can and not learn by trial and error. this sounds like a good example of not taking advice on the internet as gospel....

My hat is of to you. Please do what you can to instill that attitude in other young jumpers coming up behind you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[fasted3 0]

That has been my thinking too. Less rotation seems to equal less line twists for me. Here again it is difficult to say for sure since so many factors can cause line twists not related to packing. Just thinking of that bag pulling out smoothly behind me helps me relax and get a good deployment. How much is packing? Hard to say. I don't have the cut corners, which I think actually decrease the need to pack grommet up. I'm with you about not knowing much compared to the other guys we get to hear from. I'm keeping an open mind and appreciate the opinions.

But what do I know?

[hajnalka 0]

Great discussion, and I love grommet to pin for many reasons.

But, be careful of tall dbags that weren't meant to fit in your container that way.

If the height dimension of your bag (linestows to grommet/bridle) is appreciably larger than the thickness of your bag (as packed line stows to bottom of container) and you pack grommet up, you may be stressing your container more than it was designed to take.

I'm just chiming in here because I've had to fix many damaged side flaps with crackened stiffeners because of this. Seems like the bigger the canopy/container, the more chance for damage. Small/square bags, much less of a problem.

If you want to pack grommet up, and your container wasn't meant for this, keep an eye on your side flaps for potential stress and damage.

[JohnRich 4]

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Do you really have 13,000 jumps in just two years in this sport?

Yeah. Of course I do.

If you expect to have credibility with your statements here, then you shouldn't be lying about your experience. How are we to know you're not also playing games about other things you say?

Perhaps you should review this.

[DSE 3]

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BTW: some mistakes pretty much DO=DEATH.

No argument. Exiting an aircraft without a rig is a mistake, and will assure death. Walking into a propeller is a mistake, and likely will result in death.

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Why not own this stuff and resolve to improve, rather than throwing our hands in the air and saying 'shit happens.'

Isn't that what I said earlier?
My words.. "Not being afraid to admit mistakes and help others learn from it is important, IMO, but equally important is learning when you screwed up and doing something about it. "
Isn't that the same as "owning this stuff and resolving to improve?

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Your original point seemed to be that you would do whatever you felt like and welcomed any bad consequences as a learning challange. Probably not what you meant, but that is what you got called on, and I agree.

My original point is that I'm responsible for myself and as such, attempt to fully understand all of the components of the skydive that I'm responsible for.
I have no problem with experimenting with my pack jobs for myself, with the orientation of the Dbag (for myself) how I fold the pilot chute (for myself) or how I route the bridle (for myself), and did so with great frequency until I found what I prefer. I'm not dead, haven't had any cutaways, hard openings, nasty line twists, or other issues since I've come to my personal conclusions. I made a lot of mistakes in the process.
When you're coming from the argument that all mistakes=death, we can't have an intelligent discussion. By far, by large, and by any quantifier of any sort, far more mistakes are made that don't result in death than mistakes that do result in death. Far more mistakes are made that lead to an educated, more experienced outcome than mistakes that lead to a fatality.
*Most* fatalities are a chain of mistakes. *Most* of us get away with one or perhaps a couple mistakes each weekend. The degree of egregiousness may vary. Either way, those that walk away (or limp away) from their mistakes are usually better for it after they've had the opportunity to consider, discuss, or revisit their mistakes.

Those that have the willingness to attempt new ideas will inevitably make mistakes (including D-bag orientation) but they'll also have answers at the end of the experience vs the paperback warrior that "learns" only through what others have to say.

I discovered that grommet to grommet/grommet to pin weren't beneficial in my particular case, could be due to dynamic corners, could be that the reserve tray is sewed to prevent lines from being caught beneath them, or it could be that due to the extra length I leave in the line above the risers (or a combination of all three factors) dramatically reduce the likelihood of linetwists and assist with a smooth deployment. YMMV.

Hey JohnRich, lemme help fix your boggle.
Just for you, I'll put it back now that the joke is over (the humor you linked to, but intentionally misrepresent as a "lie."

[diablopilot 2]

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Wingsuiters shouldn't be using a pull out anyway.

Why?

The strong turbulance of the suit does not provide a clear launch of your PC.

Assuming the same bridle length and P/C construction/size how is there any difference in launch?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,400]

>Understand that you are going to screw up...Everyone does...It is a
>natural part of the learning process.

While that is 100% true, there are some screwups we can simply not afford to make. Forgetting your rig, or forgetting to pull without a cypres, or cutting away at 50 feet are all screwups - but they will not be part of the natural learning process. Indeed, they will end any possible learning process pretty quickly.

We can indeed learn by screwing up. However, in some sports (aviation, skydiving, motocross, rock climbing) we cannot afford to make the most common mistakes even once. Learning from other's mistakes is even more critical in these sports, because many of those mistakes are not ones you will be able to make twice.

(And note that changing your dbag orientation is not one of the things likely to kill you unless you take it to extremes - but it's still a good idea to learn _first_ and try _second._)