How to "safely" use your reserve?

[NickDG 23]

Good stuff, Bill, and also correct. But remove any of the factors you mentioned and as long as you still have a slider you're golden. But take the slider off and then take it to terminal and see what happens. I'm saying the slider is the biggest factor.

On the issue of older Ravens being iffy when overloaded, any 7-cell will be iffy when overloaded depending on the brain that's hanging underneath it.

I've used my Raven 1 a few times during reserve rides and it was just fine. Then I had a cutaway on my girlfriend's rig and she had Raven 150 in it, I was just careful with it and that went fine too. And I also B.A.S.E. jumped with some Ravens in the old days too.

One thing, besides the experience of the jumper, is the toggles sometimes don't get set in the right place on reserves as it's not like we actually air them out on test jumps. But the one I used for B.A.S.E. was dialed in and I never worried about unintentionally stalling it.

But I know these issues are mostly jumper induced. When I was working for Apex BASE we had a version of FOX canopy that had an extra outboard control line. The idea was as BASE canopies began to grow larger, and more lightly wing loaded, you needed the extra control authority to get similar performance of the smaller canopies.

Now I love B.A.S.E. jumpers, and for almost thirty years, they've been some of my favorite people, and as a group they are some of the most knowledgeable gear wise as any group that casually uses parachutes. But we do, and always have had, a certain percentage of them that are dumb as bricks. And some of these guys make the whacko skydivers you meet on the DZ seem like Einstein's . . .

So we began seeing problems with jumpers, who had the extra control lines, stalling out and getting dumped in on their landings. We first tried an education program and I wrote up a primer on square parachute behavior (which I thought was stupid as you shouldn't be B.A.S.E. jumping without a firm grasp of that in the first place.) But it didn't work anyway, and the problem continued. So eventually we recommended that "most" jumpers should have the extra control line removed. And that basically solved the issue.

So again, its brain matter and lack of experience, not nylon, that's causes most problems in parachuting. And it's a shame, but necessary, that we have to dumb things down to protect those folks who are lacking . . .

NickD

[Andy_Copland 0]

If you think more reserves have been used in real life situations at terminal than BASE canopies i would take a stab and say you are wrong.

People jumping 30 years maybe have 13 reserve rides, most; if not all being sub terminal (who waits to get terminal again?)

While a guy in Norway can do 13 terminals in a week or two.

BASE canopies are less prone to malfunction in my non rigger opinion.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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The deployment system makes the difference between the two IMO (and I've read all the skydiving fatality reports since 1998 and ALL the base reports)

The deployment system is the design difference, but that's got nothign to do with the environment.

A base canopy is effectively a specialty reserve that's deployed in the typical environment of a skydiving main deployment... belly-to-earth and stable. If you're in ANY other position on a base deployment, you f***ed up. With a skydiving reserve, you could be dumping a reserve while spinning wildly on your back through no fault of your own.

If you have an RSL or skyhook, a reserve is going to be deployed in whatever orientation you're in right after you chop. With a skyhook, the odds of that being a problem are reduced significantly. Without one, you may or may not be able to get stable. Lots of people will say "I always get stable before I pull silver" but then again lots of people have died from a low-pull or no-pull due to trying to get stable before pulling silver.

I have to agree with the person you quoted... reserves are just as reliable as BASE mains. They very rarely malfunction, and more often than not the malfunctions can be attributed to an unstable deployment. On VERY rare occasions you'll see reserves that strait up mal on you with a baglock or something, which would not happen in BASE, but I wouldn't think that's enough to make the claim that they're less reliable.

Actually, I have one further thought: BASE mains are always large... 240ish SQFT or more. skydiving reserves are generally not so large. For obvious reasons, a 120 sqft reserve is more likley than a 210 sqft reserve to have a small problem like a line twist develop into a malfunction, or simply not provide enough time to kick out. For this reason, a SMALL or HIGHLY LOADED sport reserve probably is less reliable than a BASE main.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[NickDG 23]

>>belly-to-earth and stable. If you're in ANY other position on a base deployment, you f***ed up.
Not exactly. Lot's of experienced B.A.S.E. jumpers deploy during turning, looping, and twisting maneuvers when they are coming rig side up.

And go to any Bridge Day and you'll see a small amount of first timers deploy way too head high, way too head low, through their legs, on their backs, and every other way you can imagine.

I say a small amount as most people train more nowadays for first B.A.S.E. jumps then they used to and they do better over all.

Back in the 80s I'd sit on the rail at Bridge Day for an hour and marvel at how really reliable parachutes are. It would be one ass over tea kettle deployment after another. And they all worked. I remember saying to another experienced B.A.S.E. jumper, "Man, this is a frigging F-111 laboratory . . ."

I recall one year the Army's famous Cheryl Stearns showed up at Bridge Day. We were all going, "No shit, she's here?" But she kind of shunned any advice other than the gear check I gave her. Then she went ass over tea kettle too . . .

NickD

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Not exactly. Lot's of experienced B.A.S.E. jumpers deploy during turning, looping, and twisting maneuvers when they are coming rig side up.

OK, so you've got experienced people who are deploying during a momentary period of being belly-to-earth. Sounds safer than spinning wildly to me.

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And go to any Bridge Day and you'll see a small amount of first timers deploy way too head high, way too head low, through their legs, on their backs, and every other way you can imagine.

No doubt. Where's the part where these first timers who are deploying through their legs didn't f*** up?

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[NickDG 23]

>>No doubt. Where's the part where these first timers who are deploying through their legs didn't f*** up?
As long as you land safely nothing is a total F-up

NickD

[jtlmd 0]

God almighty, what a tale.

[DFWAJG 4]

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I've got 13-14 reserve rides.

You should learn to pack more carefully.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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People jumping 30 years maybe have 13 reserve rides, most; if not all being sub terminal (who waits to get terminal again?)

[/reply} Hey, that's me! Except 3 of mine were terminal.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I've got 13-14 reserve rides.

You should learn to pack more carefully.

What makes you think I packed them all?

I packed maybe half of them, so there.

How many rides you got for how many jumps? Your profile is a little "thin".

[DFWAJG 4]

260, with one ride. Rubber Robbie packed me a bag lock, which then opened into a line-over. I had to remove all my info because of the erotmanic stalker that came back. So there

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I've got 13-14 reserve rides.

You should learn to pack more carefully.

Well, you should know that from your own experience. I might know other cause than just a packing fault.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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260, with one ride. Rubber Robbie packed me a bag lock, which then opened into a line-over. I had to remove all my info because of the erotmanic stalker that came back. So there

At that rate, you'll have 20 or so by the time you catch up with me.

Wish I could get a stalker.

Maybe not.

[chrismgtis 0]

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Put your feet on your ass as you reach for the handles. Push your hips forward at the same time. Pull both handles and then throw your arms back in a classic arch. Nothing to it.
Arch as you cutaway, not sfter you cutaway.

Never thought of it that way. Thanks.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[NickDG 23]

Chris,

I'm curious - is this something you've forgotten, or was it something not taught in your FJC?

Thanks,
NickD

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Chris,

I'm curious - is this something you've forgotten, or was it something not taught in your FJC?

I don't know of anyone who really teaches it that way in the FJC, They all seem to teach cutaway-then-arch. I teach it that way because it's the syllabus at my DZ. If I ran the student program, I'd change it.

MY FJC was gutter gear. When I transitioned to piggyback, the training was very informal. We read the owner's manual, talked to a few others, and kind of just figured it out.

[NickDG 23]

I've always taught EPs that way (but it was de-arch for gut gear) so for piggybacks it was always arch, look, and then onto whatever handle system they had . . .

NickD

[AndyMan 7]

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On the issue of older Ravens being iffy when overloaded, any 7-cell will be iffy when overloaded depending on the brain that's hanging underneath it.

I had a demo jump into a residential neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago on Saturday.

I had a Pilot-chute in tow, and landed a Swift Plus, which was loaded about 1.2ish. It was the first time I'd ever landed that canopy. I made the primary landing area which was very tight. It landed just fine, and the crowd loved the show.

I don't quiet know what we mean when we talk about "overloading" a reserve. I think most of you would think I was overloading that old Swift Plus, but it opened, flew, and landed great. Obviously being aware of the TSO limitations is one thing, but the idea that these reserves must be lightly loaded is false.

My whole point here, is that short of the disasters that were the old Ravens - I don't know that we need to be so hard on these 7-cell reserves. My (limited) experience on Tempos, PDR's, and now the Swift Plus's is that they all seem to open, fly, and land relatively well at higher wing-loadings.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,400]

> I think most of you would think I was overloading that old Swift Plus, but it
>opened, flew, and landed great.

A Swift Plus is not a Raven. Heavily loaded Ravens have specific issues that a canopy pilot must be familiar with - they CANNOT be flown like ZP canopies.

[chrismgtis 0]

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Chris,

I'm curious - is this something you've forgotten, or was it something not taught in your FJC?

Thanks,
NickD

I'm not 100% sure to be honest. I took the FJC two years ago, but I believe we were taught to cut away then arch. Don't quote me on that though.

I'm considering possibly sitting in on a FJC as a refresher, for the heck of it. I take any courses/classes I can. I'm taking the packing class again tomorrow, even though I know how to pack, but I've not been packing much the last 5 or 6 months.

I was getting tired and started to pack so I could leave last Saturday and tried to pack top, bottom instead of bottom, top.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan