Spinning in freefall

[Emmie 0]

Hi Everyone
I'm an AFF student, and ever since level 4 I can't stop myself from spinning when the JM lets go of me. I tried everything, and nothing helps. This created major problems. On level 5 it got so bad that I almost knocked out the JM, and had horrible line twists, so I had to cutaway. That totaly disoriented me, and I ended up missing a headon collision with an oncoming plane only by a couple of feet at landing. (Which ended up being on an active runway). To make it worse, my confidence was gone on the next two jumps, and I ended up with a brocken foot as a result. I'm heading to Sebastian to finish AFF pretty soon, & was wondering if anyone had any advice on the spins. :)

[Jimbo 0]

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I'm an AFF student, and ever since level 4 I can't stop myself from spinning when the JM lets go of me. I tried everything, and nothing helps.

A couple of things you can try here.
* Take a deep breath when you're standing in the door about to exit. Believe me, it will help to relax you.
* When you find yourself spinning, do toe taps. This should help you to get your legs and knees level (Probably the cause of your spinning problem).
* Relax! Skydiving, at least at this level, is 99% mental. All you're trying to do is fall in a relatively straight line. Remembering to breath in freefall, deep breaths, will help to relax you.

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On level 5 it got so bad that I almost knocked out the JM

Your words or his? I would hope he's smart enough to stay back a few feet so that you don't actually hit him.

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That totaly disoriented me, and I ended up missing a headon collision with an oncoming plane only by a couple of feet at landing. (Which ended up being on an active runway).

That's bad. You need to pay a lot more attention under canopy. Landing under a reserve isn't going to save your life if you land in power lines, on a freeway, or on an active runway. Even under a reserve your JM should have been talking you down. What happened?

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To make it worse, my confidence was gone on the next two jumps, and I ended up with a brocken foot as a result.

That's not good. Confidence is very important. Maybe you should back off until you're sure you're ready to come back. You mentioned that you're heading to Sebastian to finish AFF. You might want to think about taking a detour to Skyventure and spend a few minutes in the tunnel. You can work on your body position there without the other scary factors of a skydive to worry about.
AFF is tough for some people, but it can be done. It took me around 12 or 13 jumps to graduate, but I finally did it.
Good luck!
-
Jim

[Pammi 0]

I had major problems with spinning myself as a student. I had people video it, had a coach..the whole deal. Everyone finally just told me..they had no idea why I was still spinning. There came a time when everything appeared to be fine on vid, but it wasn't. I had a low pull on my first time spinning because I lost track of my altitude. I'm talking LOW PULL! As in checking my alti at 1500 and thinking "holy shit!" and pulling.
I heard toe taps and relax until I was blue in the face. This is kinda a weird thing to offer up as advice or a tip, but try going on to the next thing you have to accomplish. Something different, fun. A flip perhaps :) That's what did it for me. Merrick actually suggested it...a way to relax and get my mind off the spins. If you're like me, the more you're told to relax, the harder it is to do so. So going on to thinking about something else I 'needed to do' got my mind off of it, so I didn't OVER-think it. I still enjoy doing front flips when I'm stressed :)
Good luck and let us know how things go!!
(BTW..good luck with the landings too :) As a gal who's thrashed her jumpsuit more then once, I feel for ya there too! haha)
P
Family Photos

[mnischalke 0]

Skyventure!! It's right up the road from sebastian in Orlando. Fifteen minutes in the tunnel with the tunnel rats and you will be right on track. I know for fact it has worked for others in the exact same situation.
Peace
mike

[steve1 5]

Emmie,
I admire your courage. Most people wouldn't have the grit to hang in there. I've never had a spinning problem but I knew several people who did. I often wondered what they could do to overcome this. Most people spin the same way each time. I wonder if someone could teach you how to do a turn in the apposite direction. (just a thought) The wind tunnel sounds like a safer way to overcome spinning problems. Best of luck. Steve

[Michele 1]

I discovered a spinning problem on #5, too. Perhaps not as severe as yours, because I did not get line twists. We reviewed the tape, and discovered that my right arm was planing up and back, elevating that shoulder just slightly, but enough to turn me to the left constantly. I did not get that problem resolved immediately, and I still, when I'm not exactly balanced, I turn to the left. I always check my shoulder position when I find myself turning without meaning to.
Hang in there, you'll make it. If you can, spend some time in the wind tunnel - I would love to do that, and I hear it does work wonders.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[Albatross 0]

First of WOW to you for sticking with it. It can be very discouraging for someone to have these types of problems. I agree with the general sentiment of going to the tunnel for some Body position checks but think that the benefit of confidence may be even more important. Often these types of asymetry are normal due to your body and its idiocincacies and are made worse by tension. Try to relax but get to the tunnel if you can it will be worth 10 jumps of practice. I'll bet once you get this licked you will brease throught the rest of AFF. Stick in there.
God bless us and God Bless America
Albatross

[FallingMarc 0]

DUDE. Mad props to you for sticking with it through an injury and a reserve ride on student status. I had a massive spinning problem too as a student. I never had a chance to hit a tunnel but I would totally say that's the way sto go. No pressure of hitting the gound at 120 but leanring the muscle memory. Otherwise, stick your feet out and relax... for me it was all my legs, I had no idea where they were, one was back on my ass and one was straight out, I dindn't dtop sopinning until I consciously stuck them both out then felt how the wind was there, then got used to flying with them parallel... as always, aweseome that you stuck with it, and always remember, you CAN do it!
Marc

[scotts 0]

after whacking my JM a few times with a superman exit and a violent spin, it all came down to this. get in the box position and ARCH,ARCH,ARCH. it also solved my line twist problems on opening.

[Kirils 1]

Kudos to you for sticking with it!!! I had the same problem years ago as a student. It was solved by jumping with a different instructor. He docked with me face to face and had me arch harder and harder along with him. At the point I felt my body was about to fold in half, she let me go and surprise !
I was stable. A hard arch is the most important skill to develop at this point. Practice every day at home on the floor. The "Roman Chair" at a gym can help. And the best would be a trip to SkyVenture.
Hang in there, you will be a great flyer one day soon!
Skydiving is not a static excercise with discrete predictability...

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm an AFF student, and ever since level 4 I can't stop
>myself from spinning when the JM lets go of me. I tried
>everything, and nothing helps.
First off, make sure you listen to only your JM's on this - take anything said here as background only. That's really important, because your JM can only do a good job if you take his instructions before anyone else's. However, some things that have worked for me as a JM:
1. It's usually your legs that screw you up. If you have ever hurt one of your legs (badly sprained ankle, damaged knee, broken bones) you will probably favor one leg over the other, and this can lead to a spin. If you practice on the ground, and you see one leg doing something different than the other one, try overcorrecting to fix it. That may kickstart your "muscle memory" and allow you to fix the problem on the next jump.
2. If I have a student that can't stop a spin on level 4 due to leg problems, I teach them leg turns. My theory is that if your legs are going to be turning you, they might as well be doing the right thing, not messing you up.
3. Make sure you're looking where you want to go, not where you were. Your body tends to follow your head.
-bill von

[Pammi 0]

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3. Make sure you're looking where you want to go, not where you were. Your body tends to follow your head.

Oh good one! I forgot to say something about that! I actually found out during a dive at Quincy (the newbie tent of course) how very true that was! I would get into a two way to lay base then look for the others coming in causing the base to spin all the time! It's amazing how just changing your focus can make such a big difference!
Family Photos

[fonz 0]

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ever since level 4 I can't stop myself from spinning when the JM lets go of me.

Seems like you already got some good advice here, but I'll throw in my 2 eurocents anyway.
Note that I'm not a very experienced skydiver, let alone an instructor. If you take what I say serious, please please please talk with your instructor(s) about it!
When I did AFF, I had a huge problem with turns too. In fact, it took me 16 jumps to pass AFF (8 levels though, rather than the usual 7) and almost all repeats were due to heading control problems.
Of course, flying the wind tunnel is probably a very good thing to do. One of my instructors at Perris recommended that I went to the tunnel in Vegas. However, at the day I planned to go there, I had no means of transportation due to some mix-up. Being "stuck" on the DZ anyway, I finally decided to give that fscking (sic) level V another go, this time with a JM I had never jumped with before. At that time, I still had what I like to call "plane anxiety" (i.e. getting really scared during the plane ride). To make things worse, at 10,000 ft. he (the JM) found that my chest strap was routed incorrectly (despite 2 gear checks on the ground). And to make things even worse, the winds picked up. So, there I was, sitting in the plane just before jumprun. A gear problem had been fixed. My JM looking worried, giving the hand-across-the-neck signal and shouting things like "Hey X, tell Y not to jump!" "Make sure he doesn't jump!" "The tandems are good" and such. He told me that the winds were too strong and that everybody except the tandems were riding the plane down. I should feel disappointed, but I felt relieved instead. Later that day, when wind conditions had improved, we went up again. When I put my goggles on, they almost fell apart. The JM gave me his and asked if it was okay with me if he wore his sunglasses instead of goggles. Sure, what do I care? And surprise surprise... he jump went ok. I managed to keep a heading for a change!!! Whoohoo! So I finally passed that level V and I didn't even need the wind tunnel after all. I still plan on visiting one, because I've been told it teaches you a lot about flying your body in a tight space. And maybe I'll finally get rid of that slight but steady backslide that's still bugging me as I write this.
All in all, it was a great jump. I got over my plane anxiety and I finally got the hang of heading/turn control. I can't thank the JM (Grayson Hoffman) enough.
Anyway, after this long story, here's some pointers for you:
- 1 -
Some people want the same JM for all of their jumps. But if you get stuck at some point, it might help to change JMs. The different approach, behaviour, attitude and teaching of another JM can sometimes be very refreshing. Not that it will work miracles, but it might help.
- 2 -
Relax. It's very important to relax. If you're tense, your body gets so rigid that even the slightest asymmetry will cause a turn. Just put your "I don't give a damn" hat on, relax, smile at your JM like your life depends on it and let your arms and legs blow back. It's kinda like a car suspension. With a very stiff suspension, like a ChampCar, even the smallest bump on the track surface is passed to the driver, which makes these cars (relatively) very nervous and thus extremely difficult to handle. That's why you and I aren't ChampCar drivers. Your average road car however, has a far looser suspension. As a result, your road car will not make you feel the difference between driving over a quarter with the heads or tail side up. The tenser you are, the stiffer your body becomes, making it more difficult to fly. It is my experience that skydiving is much like piloting a sailplane (I hope that's the proper English word for it). You need to relax and use smooth, small inputs with the controls. If you whack the stick around like F16 pilots (pretend to) do in the movies, you're not a good pilot.
- 3 -
As some people already pointed out, your JM can (should be able to) give you some body position awareness exercises like tapping your toes. Take the time to inspect your body position (but mind the altitude please). Maybe you have a tendency to lower a certain limb or stick one out or something. If you're wearing a wrist mounted altimeter, don't move anything but your head when looking at it. Don't try to pull your arm in or something.
- 4 -
Point your toes. It helps, really.
- 5 -
If you do start to turn unintentionally, try to ignore it and just turn the other way. If you're spinning, arching alone won't help. That will merely stop you from spinning even faster. To stop spinning, you really need to counteract the spin by turning in the opposite direction.
- 6 -
If all else fails, you can try do "delta" out of a spin. But please talk to your instructor before planning to use this manouver. In fact, some JM won't let you. I'm not an instructor, but I can imagine that it may be quite difficult to chase a student all over the sky, especially if you start tracking in circles On the other hand, an AFF JM is supposed to be able to do so, I'd think.
- 7 -
I remember a story about a year ago on flame-dot about a guy who did level IV 28 times or something. Then he tried the delta trick and suddenly it all "clicked". I have no idea if it is true, but it illustrates one thing: you may have one jump on which it suddenly just works. From that jump on you'll be kicking yourself, thinking "why for god's sake was that all so difficult???" or "what was I so scared of?". I think it's quite possible that one thing will lead to another. Once you're able to hold a heading, your confidence is likely to get a significant boost.
For me, the level V jump I told you about and the level VI jump that followed it, were key points. After that level V jump, I knew I was able to freefall without spinning like a top all across the sky. This boosted my confidence. Level VI featured an unstable exit (getting shoved out of the plane by your JM), sending you tumbling across the sky. You're then supposed to regain stability. And guess what: it really works. It made me realize that if I were ever to fall out of the plane, screw up the exit of mess up some kind of freestyle manouver or something, I'm able to (re)gain stability. Thus, although I may screw up the plan, I'll still be safe.
It may take a while, but eventually the pieces should all start fitting together.
- 8 -
Try to find out when you perform best. Early in the morning or late in the afternoon? On your first jump of the day or on the second one? If it makes you feel better, wear your lucky shoes, pants or whatever. Get your own goggles and/or jumpsuit and/or helmet and/or altimeter and ask if you can jump with those. It may make you feel better. So might getting a permanent logbook.
- 9 -
This may sound a bit harsh, but it's really for your own good. There's always the possibility that skydiving is not the sport for you. Of course, I hope that's not the case. But make an honest assessment of your safety. When I was struggling through AFF, I hung in there because I knew I was safe. I may have failed this level (again), but at least I maintained altitude awareness, pulled on time and flew my canopy back to the DZ for a safe landing. As long as you can do exactly that, feel free to keep on trying. But if you constantly put yourself in significant danger by pulling low, landing off the DZ or in power lines, in trees, on the runway or that sort of thing, I think you'd better quit before the DZO, chief instructor, an injury or the grim reaper makes you. Maybe take a break for a while and try again later. Again, I hope this is not the case (and it probably isn't), but it would be foolish not to consider the possibility.
Good luck,
Alphons
http://www.liacs.nl/~avwerven

[philhartree 0]

Hey - it looks like you're in good company... seems like we've all been there.
It's easy to see all these cool ppl at the DZ talking about their jumps and you getting a bit disheartened coz you had a bad jump... You've been sticking with it - which is a good thing, but relax (sorry to mention it again...)
When i did AFF - i got stuck on L5 too. Couldnt sort out my turns... i ended up doing 6 repeat jumps. Eventually sorted it out - it's just one of those things - some ppl get it first time - some don't...
I was told that when i turned involuntarily - i started to twist my spine to go against it. It seemed the way i was twisting was turning me more and more in that direction. I just wanted to get in a tunnel - but there wasnt one there, so that might be something for you. I think i could handle the jumping out the aircraft bit and the landing... just the bit in the middle was pants...
Don't sweat it - in a few short jumps (like 6-12) you'll have got it sorted and wonder what all the fuss was about. Just enjoy every jump - even if you are scating all over the sky.
As BillVon says - listen to the JM - he's the boss - but take something from here though - you're not alone and it just gets better and better
Phil
---
If you have to ask, you don't understand

[philhartree 0]

heheh - Alfons - sounds exectly like my AFF course... Ditto on pretty much all of that...
i had been jumping 3 or 4 times a day for 3 or 4 days and it's pretty extreme stuff at the start... Add to that the frustrstion, dissapointment, expectation. A freind of mine did all her AFF levels and consols in a week - and it put pressure on me to do the same... Man, i'm not ashamed to say i was in tears, it was SOOOO EXTREME!
This was my main summer holiday and that usually involves much beer and late nights. However i was up at 0800 to get to the DZ for 0900 - skipping breakfast and sort of dirt diving in my head what i was s'posed to be doing... I think i was over doing it a little, so I took a day off, drank a little, swam a little, just had a break. When i returned a day later - i had a different JM - and we breezed thru a repeat L4 and L5. Wow - easy as that... I remember sort of just breathing out and pushing my pelvis down and letting the air do it's thing on my limbs - it was really really comfortable - i think until then i had been fighting with it...
During my consols. i was worried about doing an unstable exit - so one of the JM's said he'd push me out and video me. One of the finest jumps yet - tumbled for 5 then big arch and stable - then the JM swooped down to me and i just geeked the vid and did 360's all the way down. That was a memorable jump for me.
One more thing to add - when you drive down a motorway (freeway, whatever) if you change lanes - you don't actually turn. If you want to stay in a lane - you dont hold the wheel stiff. You naturally make small adjustments to wherever the vehicle is going - it;s the same with turns. I only realised this recently - when i turned to track, i saw on the video that i don't push my arm down - i just kind of moved in the right direction - it was really weird - but nice to know that subconsciously it's all sinking in....
blue skies and cold beer
Phil
---
If you have to ask, you don't understand

[skycat 0]

Well I don't know how big you are, but I'm tiny, and well that HUGE J??(felt like a 10) was wider than me and caused me to turn and spin out of control I quickly learned that along with toe touches throw in a rig shift to put the rig back on the center of my back after a turn. One of my old JM still tells everyone the story of me coming around from doing a 360 and shifting my rig to stop. She said it was the first time she laughed in freefall on an AFF jump. Cause not only did I shift it to stop, I shifted it again to turn the other way. Of course once I got my own gear I actually had to learn how to fly my body and not my rig.
Kelli

[Strynx 0]

Emmi i'm still a student too and a good way i found to relax was with a yoga 2:1 breathing. I got that with my aikido teacher and i applied it on every jump. It goes like this i breath in by the nose counting 1,2 then i exhale by the nose or mouth counting 1,2,3,4 i repeat that for about 5-10 min b4 the ride to altitude. Another trick i use is "mantra" i repeat words over and over again on the plane ride for example on PFF I i repeated this from take off till 9000ft. " Aware,arch, relax,aware arch, relax........" You can choose any word you like depending on situation. Anyway hope this helps you to relax. Worked for me. Hang in there.
"If you're going thru hell, keep going" W.C.

[philhartree 0]

heheheh - whatever works for you...
you can see me moving my lips in the free fall vid saying "Relax, man" ad infinitum.
Once on the ground, the JM asked me why i was singing! I was sooooo not relaxed...
LOL
Phil
---
If you have to ask, you don't understand

[E150 0]

Top

[BenW 0]

If you're heading to Sebastian, explain to your instructors that you've had a spinning problem and they'll most likely take you to the tunnel before you do a jump - to see what the problem is.
Enjoy
B

[Watcher 0]

The tunnel is great. Get in there with 40 jumps and get some(1 hour) one on one coaching with some of the Open class RW (touch of Magic, airspeed, Knights, PD Blue) you can come out like you have 600 jumps. I went there agian last sat spent 45 minutes in there finishing up refining center point mantis turns and side slides hehe and some knee flying, and doing alot of coaching with my friends, staying in there 30 minutes straight really puts a strain on the arms.
Jonathan

[Brokeneagle 0]

Empathy, Emmie! I, too, got stuck at level IV with an uncontrollable (left) turn-- tried 7 times to pass-- got very discouraged and was sarcastically encouraged to take up bowling by my AFF JMs, whom I had previously admired for their freefall skills- I was at the point of giving up on my dreams of flying my body when the kindhearted DZO at Ellijay suggested tunnel time-- I hit the tunnel. At this time, there was only the Pigeon Forge windtunnel open. Took a 10-flight package; the instructors were supportive and skillful. Took 8 of those flights to learn how to stay on a heading. When I returned to the DZ, I asked for different JMs and tried again- flew for the first time by myself!!!; breezed thru the rest of the program, without another repeat and skipping level 7 altogether. If you absolutely want to skydive and you are at the end of yer rope, I'd highly recommend tunnel training, especially if your body is not symmetrical- and possibly changing JMs, too-
Brokeneagle.
I'm really very gentle, no matter what my kung-fu teacher says...

[riggerrob 558]

Sounds like you are a overwhelmed by AFF.
Try breaking it down into smaller bits.
First of all, learn how to steer your parachute, secondly get some tunnel time and finally resume AFF.
First of all, find a dropzone that still has a static-line or IAD program. Do a few jumps from 3,000 so you can concentrate on steering your parachute. Once you get comfortable steering your parachute and can consistently land it softly near the target, then start working on other skills. The big advantage of a few canopy rides is that when you resume AFF, you will re-enter familiar territory when you open your main parachute.
I refuse to give you a jump number for this canopy control phase of training. We all learn at different rates. You don't learn as quickly as the AFF textbook. So what! Find a learning pace that you are comfortable with and stick with it. If any "AFF all the way" Nazis try to fling you out of an airplane at 10,000' before you are ready, tell them to f@#$%! off because it is your money, your time and your life.
Rob Warner
Static line instructor since 1982
Rigger since 1984
Tandem instructor since 1986
Progressive Freefall Instructor since 1990

[riggerrob 558]

Oops!
Perhaps my vocabulary was a bit too strong in my last post.

[PhreeZone 15]

Not at all Rob, I agree with every thing that you stated there. What most students and low timers forget is that the DZ will do what ever is required to pay the bills, and if that includes forcing you to repeat levels that you were'nt comfortable with in the first place, its all the same to them. Thats why most in the Tandem Progressive, only use one JM for the non tandems, it saves the DZ at least $30 per student.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique